class rank?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Bereno

Bereno

Smoking Monkey
10+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2011
Messages
2,031
Reaction score
635
Members don't see this ad.
Hey guys, I was talking to some friends of mine who just finished up law school (I was on that track until I switched to dentistry ha) and we were talking about what schools I'm applying to, and which ones were my favorite etc. Then we got around to talking about class position. The reason this came up is that in law school, it is not uncommon for a student to not go to the best school they got into. This is because if they just barely got into a great school, they would be at the bottom of their class, whereas they would rather go to a school where they could be at the middle to top of their class. Of course this is weighted with other factors, but this is definitely influential in their decision. The reason this is a big deal in law schools is because your average starting salary is correlated to what your class rank is. Now I know that starting salary has nothing to do with class rank in dental school, but one thing my friends did ask about is specializing. I was not able to answer their question, so I am posing here to see what you guys think.

The question: "does class rank help determine your ability to specialize?"

The situation that was being posed: If you get accepted to Columbia, or UW (my state school) where would you go? Initially I would say Columbia (ignoring costs) but then again they bring up a good point... Do I want to be at the bottom of my class? Honestly, if I got into Columbia, I would probably be at the bottom lol. How would being at the bottom of Columbia compare to the middle of UW IF you wanted to specialize? I could not answer this, so what do you guys think?

BTW, its not that I want to specialize in anything just yet, but we talked for a while about this and came to no clear conclusion so I was a bit curious...
 
You got this backwards. UW is just as competitive as if not more competitive than Columbia.
 
Agreed, Columbia is good program, buy UW is very well respected. Just get into one of them first
 
TheOMSProject said:
You got this backwards. UW is just as competitive as if not more competitive than Columbia.
Click to expand...

lol, that was not the intent of the question. I know that UW is a great school, and very competitive! (heck, its my #1 pick) For the sake of conversation, I was informing my friends that Columbia currently has the highest average DAT for entering students. i was using this just for the sake of letting my friends be able to easily "rank" the schools.

Maybe I should use a more appropriate example: Columbia vs Marquett... ?

The question is merely aimed at looking at where you think you will lie in the class rank compared to your likelihood of specializing. It is NOT about what schools are "better" because that has more to do than just class position. That clear things up? lol
 
correct me if i am wrong, but what i hear is columbia doenst have letter grades. its just pass or fail. majority of students go into specializing from columbia. Columbia is one of the best school if you are thinking about specializing. and what can beat the ivy name? columbia wins hands down in my opinion
 
uw-1.gif
 
haha you guys are killing me! Maybe I should simplify and rephrase:

do you think that specializing is correlated to class rank? If so, would that affect your school decision at all? Furthermore, do you think that the correlation is a "causation" in that class rank can potentially influence someone's ability to specialize.

Once again, I would like to reiterate that I am not looking to specialize. This question was born out of a conversation that made me curious of the difference from law school.

🙂
 
Bereno said:
lol, that was not the intent of the question. I know that UW is a great school, and very competitive! (heck, its my #1 pick) For the sake of conversation, I was informing my friends that Columbia currently has the highest average DAT for entering students. i was using this just for the sake of letting my friends be able to easily "rank" the schools.

Maybe I should use a more appropriate example: Columbia vs Marquett... ?

The question is merely aimed at looking at where you think you will lie in the class rank compared to your likelihood of specializing. It is NOT about what schools are "better" because that has more to do than just class position. That clear things up? lol
Click to expand...

My argument was based on why you think you'll rank near bottom at Columbia but rank somewhere in middle at UW.

Class rank does help determine your ability to specialize. Now, are you likely to specialize at UW or Columbia (e.g.: Rank 30 at UW vs Rank 70 at Columbia)? I think the answer is pretty clear since we're talking about two of the very best schools in the country. You cancel out school reputation now all that matters is class ranking. And that's my point.
 
Real Ivy League > wannabe princeton of the pacific northwest
 
Hmm...I've always wondered about this concept too Bereno. And for the people who claim that Ivy dental schools are great for specializing, what happens if you are in the middle or bottom 10 of your ivy dental school? It's not like they are just putting all 35 to 40 people in class in OMFS/Endo/Ortho positions, right? So wouldnt it be best to go to a state school, land yourself in top 15 at least, to give yourself a fighting chance?
Especially with boards going pass/fail, and most ivies and UConn also being pass/fail, what would be the distinguishing factors?
I remember at my UConn interview that the boards being pass/fail issue was addressed, and we were told that even though they don't like to present grades, if it was needed to prove one's qualifications for a specialty position, the school would provide the grades/ranking of the candidate.
Personally for me, I like to play it safe. I'd rather go to UW, come out with wayy less debt. Best case scenario, if I was interested in specializing, then I work my butt off and try my best to rank high. But if specializing doesnt work out for whatever reason, or I change my mind, at least my debt is reasonable and can be managed on a gp income...
Alternative..what if you went to Columbia and didnt match into said dream specialty? You still have those loans except like 3 times more than the cost of UW.....
This is just how I see things. I have med school friends who also gave up instate tuition to attend higher ranked, "better" med schools, because they think it ups their chances at said specialty. To each his own.
 
Obviously cost is a huge consideration on attendance. But I am trying to eliminate other factors for decision in the hypothetical.

Assuming every dental school cost the same. how important would class rank be? What if someone was in the bottom of the good school, and the top of a poor school. Which carries more weight in specializing?

BTW, it appears as if I used a poor example. I was not presupposing that I would place at the bottom of Columbia, or the middle of UW, I was just trying to use those as an example of a potential situation. lol
 
TheOMSProject said:
My argument was based on why you think you'll rank near bottom at Columbia but rank somewhere in middle at UW.

Class rank does help determine your ability to specialize. Now, are you likely to specialize at UW or Columbia (e.g.: Rank 30 at UW vs Rank 70 at Columbia)? I think the answer is pretty clear since we're talking about two of the very best schools in the country. You cancel out school reputation now all that matters is class ranking. And that's my point.
Click to expand...

I think I should clarify: I was not supposing that I (me personally) would be at the bottom of Columbia, and the middle at UW. I was merely saying IF someone was, how would that impact their ability to specialize?

You say that class rank will influence it, but will it outweigh a higher rank at a "lower" school??
 
Bereno said:
Obviously cost is a huge consideration on attendance. But I am trying to eliminate other factors for decision in the hypothetical.

Assuming every dental school cost the same. how important would class rank be? What if someone was in the bottom of the good school, and the top of a poor school. Which carries more weight in specializing?

BTW, it appears as if I used a poor example. I was not presupposing that I would place at the bottom of Columbia, or the middle of UW, I was just trying to use those as an example of a potential situation. lol
Click to expand...

Hmmm...Gotcha. However, there aren't any really "poor"dental schools either. Yes, there are some minority-centered schools that take students with lower stats, and there are students from those schools that specialize as well, but I'm assuming we aren't talking about those, right? Or are we? UW is a great institution, Columbia is as well...I am still tempted to think the top ranked student at UW would get the specialty spot. I'm sure UW is no cake-walk, and if anything it shows a lot of perseverance to rank that high at a top-notch dental school...just my opinion...
 
Bereno said:
Hey guys, I was talking to some friends of mine who just finished up law school (I was on that track until I switched to dentistry ha) and we were talking about what schools I'm applying to, and which ones were my favorite etc. Then we got around to talking about class position. The reason this came up is that in law school, it is not uncommon for a student to not go to the best school they got into. This is because if they just barely got into a great school, they would be at the bottom of their class, whereas they would rather go to a school where they could be at the middle to top of their class. Of course this is weighted with other factors, but this is definitely influential in their decision. The reason this is a big deal in law schools is because your average starting salary is correlated to what your class rank is. Now I know that starting salary has nothing to do with class rank in dental school, but one thing my friends did ask about is specializing. I was not able to answer their question, so I am posing here to see what you guys think.

The question: "does class rank help determine your ability to specialize?"

The situation that was being posed: If you get accepted to Columbia, or UW (my state school) where would you go? Initially I would say Columbia (ignoring costs) but then again they bring up a good point... Do I want to be at the bottom of my class? Honestly, if I got into Columbia, I would probably be at the bottom lol. How would being at the bottom of Columbia compare to the middle of UW IF you wanted to specialize? I could not answer this, so what do you guys think?

BTW, its not that I want to specialize in anything just yet, but we talked for a while about this and came to no clear conclusion so I was a bit curious...
Click to expand...

you would get ALOT more meaningful advice if you posted this in the dental forms... at least dental students + residents + dentists will provide more relevant info.

My understanding has been that for majority of schools, high class rank will help you land into residency interviews. I dunno exact data, but for OMSF, the common number I see is always "top 10% of the class" and prolly a little better for Ortho (these 2 seem to be the heavy hitters of competitive specialties)

However, there are certain schools (even though they don't exactly rank) that have have a high success rate into matching their graduates into specialties (Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, etc come into mind). The reason is, these schools have a reputation of producing top-notch graduates (the "perfect" breed) and alot of residency programs know that..... So if your hell-bent on specializing as a pre-dent, your odds would be a little better if you attend one of those.

I think it was 2009 or 2010, but, about 1/3 of Columbia graduates went into Ortho + Omfs + peds (the 3 hardest specialties today).... and this is for a school that doesn't exactly "rank".... they have thirds-system.
 
dentalWorks said:
you would get ALOT more meaningful advice if you posted this in the dental forms... at least dental students + residents + dentists will provide more relevant info.

My understanding has been that for majority of schools, high class rank will help you land into residency interviews. I dunno exact data, but for OMSF, the common number I see is always "top 10% of the class" and prolly a little better for Ortho (these 2 seem to be the heavy hitters of competitive specialties)

However, there are certain schools (even though they don't exactly rank) that have have a high success rate into matching their graduates into specialties (Columbia, Harvard, UCLA, etc come into mind). The reason is, these schools have a reputation of producing top-notch graduates (the "perfect" breed) and alot of residency programs know that..... So if your hell-bent on specializing as a pre-dent, your odds would be a little better if you attend one of those.

I think it was 2009 or 2010, but, about 1/3 of Columbia graduates went into Ortho + Omfs + peds (the 3 hardest specialties today).... and this is for a school that doesn't exactly "rank".... they have thirds-system.
Click to expand...


just to follow up on this.
i think it'll be just as hard, if not harder to make it in the top1/5 of columbia than top 1/10 of an "regular" dental school - which is the perquisite (roughly speaking) to specialize OMFS/Ortho
so wouldn't the effort be the same in term of getting into a post-grad program?
 
If you ignore everything else, sure it would be better to get on the top of class rank. I had a friend at UCSF and he said even if it's only P/F, a prof writes a LoR to students who got the highest score. so it would be easier to get a LoR at a less competitive school, only if that exists.

Thing is we can't not completely ignore other factors. For example, those schools which send lots of graduates to a specialty program have various and extensive research programs. A research experience on great thesis will be an advantage for a specialty program.
 
stevesteve121 said:
just to follow up on this.
i think it'll be just as hard, if not harder to make it in the top1/5 of columbia than top 1/10 of an "regular" dental school - which is the perquisite (roughly speaking) to specialize OMFS/Ortho
so wouldn't the effort be the same in term of getting into a post-grad program?
Click to expand...

columbia doesn't have top 1/5th or top 1/10th... they have thirds...
top third
middle third
last third

each has approx 30 students....

There is one indisputable fact.... majority of residency programs are filled by non-ivy league graduates.... this tells me mostly everyone whos naturally gifted (I.Q) and had the work ethic of a farm horse with the correct externships and connections (LORs) ought to be able to make it.
 
dentalWorks said:
columbia doesn't have top 1/5th or top 1/10th... they have thirds...
top third
middle third
last third

each has approx 30 students....

There is one indisputable fact.... majority of residency programs are filled by non-ivy league graduates.... this tells me mostly everyone whos naturally gifted (I.Q) and had the work ethic of a farm horse with the correct externships and connections (LORs) ought to be able to make it.
Click to expand...


o rly? that sinteresting I did not know that

so Columbia does not distinguish between those who are in the top 1/3, the middle 2/3 and bottom 3/3?

so the "highest class rank" one can get at columbia is top 1/3?
 
one of the reasons why some of these schools sent so many students into specialization is that the board was NOT p/f. And students from ivy league schools did very well.

But now that the board is p/f perhaps class ranking should matter more than before.
 
hmmm, so with the p/f system for the boards I wonder if class rank will increase in "value" if you want to specialize. From what you guys are saying, it sounds like it will... I might hop onto the dental forum and see what they say haha 👍
 
Munchy said:
one of the reasons why some of these schools sent so many students into specialization is that the board was NOT p/f. And students from ivy league schools did very well.

But now that the board is p/f perhaps class ranking should matter more than before.
Click to expand...

Bereno said:
hmmm, so with the p/f system for the boards I wonder if class rank will increase in "value" if you want to specialize. From what you guys are saying, it sounds like it will... I might hop onto the dental forum and see what they say haha 👍
Click to expand...

I doubt it..... GRE has been utilized for many ortho programs, and there is talk that when NBDE goes to P/F, GRE will be the new crowned king.

OMFS, there is also "talk" about having something very similar to NBME/USMLE-1.....

Because of all this "talk" going on about new examination.... I wouldn't be surprised if it takes them a good 5+ years to develop different exams for each specialty (its stupid I know). Meanwhile, since the GRE is readily available, its going to be more and more utilized. So for most of us class of 2015 and above, if specializing is on your mind, you better get those 1000 vocabulary words memorized, Verbal (IMO) makes GRE 10 times harder than any DAT exam.
 
except that GRE is not a direct test of your dental knowledge where as NBDE is.
Anyone can ace GRE without going to dental school but the same cannot be said for NBDE.

In my opinion, class ranking should matter more than before. And personally, I'd rather be at the top of my class in a non-ivy league than doing average in an Ivy.
 
Munchy said:
except that GRE is not a direct test of your dental knowledge where as NBDE is.
Anyone can ace GRE without going to dental school but the same cannot be said for NBDE.

In my opinion, class ranking should matter more than before. And personally, I'd rather be at the top of my class in a non-ivy league than doing average in an Ivy.
Click to expand...

but thats irrelevant.... They have designed a system thats capable (so they think) of distinguishing the best applicants by showcasing their work ethic and natural smarts.... In theory, If everyone had the same I.Q, then only those whom studied the hardest will score the highest. This goes for any test, GRE, DAT, NDBE, USMLE, etc.
 
I agree with you on the fact that people who are smarter will score higher on standardize tests like GRE. But my point is specialist programs have no other means of determining your DENTAL knowledge if not for the class rank.
If they want to see how much you have learned in dental school, class ranking is the only objective meter at the present moment.
 
Using the GRE or any other irrelevant standardized test would be the dumbest thing ever. They might as well run credit checks on us and use our credit scores if they want another number to compare us by. This would be as dumb as USC's OMFS program requiring their applicants to submit MCAT scores - completely asinine.

I have a feeling that they will create a new basic science based test (or take parts of the USMLE or similar test that covers the basic sciences covered across all dental schools and create a test based off that) in the next couple of years that will be used for all specialties. What will suck about this is that we will have yet another dumb test to study for, but it will only be applicable to the students who self-selected to specialize. Sucks though - I wish they made the boards pass/fail after I took them.
 
txlonghorn said:
Using the GRE or any other irrelevant standardized test would be the dumbest thing ever. They might as well run credit checks on us and use our credit scores if they want another number to compare us by. This would be as dumb as USC's OMFS program requiring their applicants to submit MCAT scores - completely asinine.

I have a feeling that they will create a new basic science based test (or take parts of the USMLE or similar test that covers the basic sciences covered across all dental schools and create a test based off that) in the next couple of years that will be used for all specialties. What will suck about this is that we will have yet another dumb test to study for, but it will only be applicable to the students who self-selected to specialize. Sucks though - I wish they made the boards pass/fail after I took them.
Click to expand...


Ditto. Between the timeline of taking Part 1, Part 2, and trying to graduate, just wondering when one would have the time to review for yet another exam. Would this result in more students just applying during their 4th year? They really should just keep the percentage system until they decide how exactly specialty applicants will be compared.
 
I couldn't agree more. The MCAT for the USC OMFS program is quite simply the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard of.
 
OH yeh.... I forgot to add. There is even talk of postponing this pass/fail business of NDBE.
 
dentalWorks said:
OH yeh.... I forgot to add. There is even talk of postponing this pass/fail business of NDBE.
Click to expand...

Really? Do you have the source? I always thought the 2012 date was set in stone, based on the information presented on the ADA site.
 
txlonghorn said:
Really? Do you have the source? I always thought the 2012 date was set in stone, based on the information presented on the ADA site.
Click to expand...

I dun have the source... I read about it last year when I was still applying.
 
you'd think these people think before they act. But apparently not: "let's just make it p/f and we'll figure out things after".
 
Munchy said:
you'd think these people think before they act. But apparently not: "let's just make it p/f and we'll figure out things after".
Click to expand...

they had their reasons behind it.... the boards were designed to test your dental knowledge, passing is all thats required. They didn't like the idea that residency directors were using high marks to distinguish between applicants because they felt there should be other tests/qualities to distinguish people.

ofc I don't agree with any of it. An exam is an exam
 
I'm a columbia student. The way it works here is that there is an honors/pass/fail system. Something like the top 10%ish get honors for each course, but not always. They look at the number of honors you get over the first 3 years and divide the class into "thirds" on your letters of recommendation for residencies.

The top 1/3 get "very highly recommended"
the middle 1/3 get "highly recommended"
the bottom 1/3 get "recommended"

As a side note, I applied to UW, interviewed there as an in-state student, was not impressed and eventually got rejected. Both are good schools though
 
Yes specializing has a large correlation to class rank - however, some schools like Harvard and possibly columbia go on a pass/fail system so than your class rank is non-existent I think (correct me if I'm wrong)...

My dad's an OMFS and is on the board for choosing residents for his program and class rank does definitely matter - its not everything as your board percentages count too (but in the future for our classes - they are making them p/f)...so extracurriculars; being published/research etc are all apart of the decision making process. I just know if you are in a class ranked school - for programs like ortho you have to be that top 5-10% so class rank really does matter. Similarly for OMFS you have to be the top picks can't be the bottom of the class unless you have an awesome portfolio and possibly connections
 
If you interview at Columbia, you will get a breakdown of postdoctoral placement for the last 10 years. In 2009, there were 30 (OMFS + Peds + Ortho), 33 in 2010, and 29 in 2011. Years previous to those were as low as 15. Perio, Endo, and Pros were between 1-5 each year (with 3 years of 0 for endo). They place well more than 1/3 of their class in those 6 specialties, and almost everyone else into GPR/AEGD. Overall, 92-97% (includes dual degrees, fellowships, and UNIF SVC) do something other than private practice each year.
 
Bereno said:
Hey guys, I was talking to some friends of mine who just finished up law school (I was on that track until I switched to dentistry ha) and we were talking about what schools I'm applying to, and which ones were my favorite etc. Then we got around to talking about class position. The reason this came up is that in law school, it is not uncommon for a student to not go to the best school they got into. This is because if they just barely got into a great school, they would be at the bottom of their class, whereas they would rather go to a school where they could be at the middle to top of their class. Of course this is weighted with other factors, but this is definitely influential in their decision. The reason this is a big deal in law schools is because your average starting salary is correlated to what your class rank is. Now I know that starting salary has nothing to do with class rank in dental school, but one thing my friends did ask about is specializing. I was not able to answer their question, so I am posing here to see what you guys think.

The question: "does class rank help determine your ability to specialize?"

The situation that was being posed: If you get accepted to Columbia, or UW (my state school) where would you go? Initially I would say Columbia (ignoring costs) but then again they bring up a good point... Do I want to be at the bottom of my class? Honestly, if I got into Columbia, I would probably be at the bottom lol. How would being at the bottom of Columbia compare to the middle of UW IF you wanted to specialize? I could not answer this, so what do you guys think?

BTW, its not that I want to specialize in anything just yet, but we talked for a while about this and came to no clear conclusion so I was a bit curious...
Click to expand...

There are some underlying issues with the scope of this discusion.

First of all, assuming you got into every dental school this application cycle, how would you, or any other applicant, ever know which schools you 'barely" got into and which schools you "safely" got into? Short of being selected off a wait-list, there would be no definitive indicators that could reveal this information. And your intuition would not suffice. For all you know, Columbia definitely and immediately wanted you and UW waited until the last possible second to add you into their class during closed-door discussions.

The dental school process is just inherently different than that of law school. The stringent accreditation process and standard of education keeps every dental school very tight in terms of admission criterion and quality of education. As I'm sure all of you know, the variation in basic statistics (i.e. DAT / GPA) do not shift wildly from school to school. This is quite different from law school. In law school, the LSAT counts for an incredible component of the admissions process. Most schools have no interview process. In addition, the standard of acceptance with regards to an LSAT score varies wildly from school to school. A score of say, 165, might nearly guarantee admission at a state school, but just barely afford an applicant admission at a top-tier program. This fact alone, would allow applicants to acquire some insight into their strength and their future success at a given school.

The student body will remain fairly consistant, in terms of intellectual strength, from dental school to dental school. Even though there are no dental school rankings or way to order schools on strength - a school that is perceived at the top - say, Harvard, would not feature a markedly more impressive student body than that of a lesser known dental school. On the contrary, Harvard Law School would feature a much more intellectually impressive student body than that of a small, unknown law school.

It's just different.

To answer your primary question, Yes, a class rank can be important in determining your specialization fate. But, as others have suggested, not every dental school uses a traditional ranking system. And the extent of importance of a class rank will vary from specialization program to specialization program. It's complex just like the dental school admission process.

Finally, just because you perceive a school to be more difficult or include a more intellectually dynamic student body simply does not mean you will have a more challenging time. The beauty of dental school is that once you're in, you're in. And if you work hard, you could succeed at ANY dental school.
 
Bereno said:
Assuming every dental school cost the same. how important would class rank be? What if someone was in the bottom of the good school, and the top of a poor school. Which carries more weight in specializing?

/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure you've gotten your answer. Just to add to the discussion, I think it's obvious to say that a top 10% student at a state school > middle of the pack at a name brand school.

Top 10% student at a name brand school DOES NOT MEAN better than Top 10% student at a state school. We sometimes forget that adcoms are human and not gods. What if the PD went to that same state school? What if that PD got totally burned by the name brand school in the past? What if the PD's ex-wife went to the name brand school?

Admissions to anything dental related has wayyyy too many variables. The only admissions criteria that remains consistent is high class rank and high standardized test scores. Work hard and things will work its way into place. 👍
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mr.Smile12
Update including 2024 entering class: ADEA AADSAS
Replies
0
Views
702
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
T
UAGM-SDM Class 2028
Replies
25
Views
3K
dianycastillo
D
L
Retaking Classes After Graduation
Replies
0
Views
259
lemonbarzz
L
artist2022
OSU Class of 2030 Interview/Acceptance Thread
Replies
1
Views
511
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
artist2022
Touro Class of 2030 Interview/Acceptance Thread
Replies
1
Views
404
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Top