Class ranking...

[ssik]

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1. Do all schools rank their students?
2. Can pass/fail schools rank their students? How?
3. Which schools do NOT rank their students? Is this good or bad?

 

[whlee84]

no, not all schools rank their students, since some schools are P/F. but even P/F schools keep track of your exam scores, so it's not strictly just pass or fail.

the only P/F schools i can think of off the top of my head are...harvard, columbia, uconn...anyone else?

 

[nydds25]

no, not all schools rank their students, since some schools are P/F. but even P/F schools keep track of your exam scores, so it's not strictly just pass or fail.

the only P/F schools i can think of off the top of my head are...harvard, columbia, uconn...anyone else?

Columbia is H/P/F, which is essentially A/B/F. This is a huge difference than P/F.... people want the H, so they will gun for the H... breeds competitive students.

 

[cybermech]

If I'm not mistaken, I think UCSF has a P/F/H thing going on...

 

[coambis]

If I'm not mistaken, I think UCSF has a P/F/H thing going on...

UCSF does have Honors/Pass/Fail. I think I heard that UCLA does, too.

 

[UCSF2012]

UCSF does have Honors/Pass/Fail. I think I heard that UCLA does, too.

we have p/f/ p with commendation. The commendation letters are almost absolutely useless, as implied by a faculty on the admin. There is zero competition, as virtually the entire class crams right before the exam. The gunner population is effectively nil.

 

[harjay]

we have p/f/ p with commendation. The commendation letters are almost absolutely useless, as implied by a faculty on the admin. There is zero competition, as virtually the entire class crams right before the exam. The gunner population is effectively nil.

This is basically the deal with UCLA too.
P/NP are the only grades that show on a transcript, but you can get a positive EPR (Excellent performance report) for the top 10% or so (varies by class) or a marginal pass (like a negative EPR).
I would say most students try to get some EPRs, but the competition between students is minimal. Lots of cooperation
ADD: there is also no class ranking system to my knowledge

 

[UCSF2012]

Class rankings are for those who aren't so fortunate.

 

[Andrew324]

How about Case Western

 

[335xi]

case western

3 yr: no ranking
2 yr: no ranking
1 yr: decision not made yet ( we voted about couple weeks ago.)

 

[Black Teeth]

1. Do all schools rank their students?
2. Can pass/fail schools rank their students? How?
3. Which schools do NOT rank their students? Is this good or bad?

Do all schools rank their students?
As of right now, there are only a handful of schools that are on a pass/ fail system. The majority of dental schools have traditional grades and ranking system.

Can pass/fail schools rank their students? How?
By definition, a pass/ fail school cannot rank its students. Without traditional letter grades, a grade point average cannot be calculated. Without a GPA, how can you compare students to one another? The short answer is that you can’t. Numbers (i.e. GPA) are the only way to accurately compare students. If a pass/ fail school is somehow able to miraculously rank its students then it is not really a pass/ fail school and outright blatantly lied to its students. As whlee84 pointed out, some schools keep a student’s old exam scores for a particular class but the purpose for that is to ensure that there are no grading errors. If students believe that that an error has been made and they erroneously failed a course, then they can find their exam and correct the error. I have seen my official dental school transcripts from UCLA and there is no GPA or class ranking indicated on it. I’m sure other pass/ fail schools are similar to that. Every student who applies to specialty programs is required to get a letter of recommendation from the dean of their school. The dean at UCLA specifically states on the letter of recommendation that students at UCLA do not have a GPA and there is not class ranking. That way, specialty programs know not to bother looking for one.

Which schools do NOT rank their students? Is this good or bad?
Other students on SDN can probably tell you which programs have a pass/ fail system. As far as whether it is good or bad… I would say that class ranking is only important if you are planning on specializing. If you are planning on going into general dentistry then it will mean absolutely nothing to you and you can enjoy life with little stress. If you are planning to specialize then it becomes a factor in getting accepted into a specialty program and probably more so if the national dental boards becomes pass/ fail. So far, dental schools and specialty programs have not figured out how they will handle that if that becomes the case. But for right now, the handful of pass/ fail dental schools all claim that this system of grading does not affect the match rates into specialty programs and all evidence indicates this to be accurate. I’m proof of that. I graduated from a pass/ fail school and it did not hinder my chances of getting accepted into a specialty program. My classmates got in without a problem as well. As far as I know, all the other dental schools that are on pass/ fail system successfully send a large percentage of their graduates onto specialty programs as well. From my personal experience, I love the pass/ fail system because it allows a student to focus the majority of their time studying and performing well on the national boards without having to worry about getting good grades in class too. A dental student from a pass/ fail school can study the minimal amount to pass their classes and spend the rest of their time studying for the national boards. For that reason, students from pass/ fail schools have very high national dental board score averages. It also allows students to participate in more extracurricular activities which is another important criteria for specializing. So I honestly can’t think of a negative aspect of the pass/ fail system. I truly benefitted from it. After all, I got accepted in the specialty program of my choice and so I can’t complain!

 

[gryffindor]

we have p/f/ p with commendation. The commendation letters are almost absolutely useless, as implied by a faculty on the admin. There is zero competition, as virtually the entire class crams right before the exam. The gunner population is effectively nil.

Gunners will not admit to having studied for days prior to the night before in order to secure that "p with commendation."

Are you going to believe one faculty member? I can see the dean's letter from this school in a candidate's residency application - "This student earned the most "p with commendation" in her class. This designation is given only to the top 5% of students in any given class." The residency director reading this application thinks "Well geez I don't know how to tell all these P/F students apart, but sounds like this one got the highest scores in her class compared to all the others."

 

[UCSF2012]

Gunners will not admit to having studied for days prior to the night before in order to secure that "p with commendation."

Are you going to believe one faculty member? I can see the dean's letter from this school in a candidate's residency application - "This student earned the most "p with commendation" in her class. This designation is given only to the top 5% of students in any given class." The residency director reading this application thinks "Well geez I don't know how to tell all these P/F students apart, but sounds like this one got the highest scores in her class compared to all the others."

Ah yes, the old "how will you ever know" argument. You can't ever believe anyone, because you'll never know whether they're telling you the truth.

I've read my recommendation letter from the dean of the dental school. The first paragraph detailed our grading process. It states that UCSF doesn't rank their students and therefore do not provide a means of comparing our students.

When students apply to residency programs, only a few apply to any given program. That program director don't have a means to that particular student with the remainder of the class. At best, he'll have a certain number of commendation letters (and in which classes), but what does he do with that? How many does the remainder of the class get (those who didn't apply to that program)? Commendation letters are a relatively useless tool. That's the consensus, but we use them anyway.

As a result, we study at our own pace. We study for our own knowledge. We don't spend every waking hour at the library trying to memorize the textbook. That's the environment here.

 

[gryffindor]

When students apply to residency programs, only a few apply to any given program. That program director don't have a means to that particular student with the remainder of the class. At best, he'll have a certain number of commendation letters (and in which classes), but what does he do with that? How many does the remainder of the class get (those who didn't apply to that program)? Commendation letters are a relatively useless tool. That's the consensus, but we use them anyway.

I guess I should clarify. The confused program director isn't only going to compare the UCSF applicants to each other. He's scratching his head looking at the UCSF applicant with no rank and a 93 on the boards with an applicant from SIU who has the same 93 on the boards but also happens to be #1 in his class. That's where the program directors get confused about the P/F schools. It's not that big of a deal, students from P/F schools still get into residency. But if I was going to look for a P/F school, I'd look for one that was 100% P/F and not one that claims to be P/F but ranks you behind your back. I also would not want one that is on an H/P/F system.

Are you graduating in 2012? First years already have Dean's letters written for them?