classmate missing every Friday afternoon clinical rotation

[tiredmedstudent010]

I am a third-year med student in clinical rotations right now. I am on the same team with another medical student who is Jewish. She leaves at around 12:30 every Friday to observe Shabbat. I respect her religious belief, however from what I've heard, Shabbat starts at sunset. She told me that she leaves early because she also has to prepare for Shabbat such as doing grocery shopping, cooking, and taking a shower. Since we are the only two medical students on our team, her workload falls onto my shoulder every Friday afternoon. I just feel very unfair but at the same time, it seems like you can't be mad at someone's religious belief. Can someone help me stop being so grumpy?

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[NontradICUdoc]

Maybe there is a arrangement between her and the rotation where she stays longer the other days or comes in on Sundays. Either way, it gives you a chance to shine without anyone else there.

Focus on your progress.

 

[Dantes]

How does her workload fall on your shoulders as a third year med student?

 

[tiredmedstudent010]

Maybe there is a arrangement between her and the rotation where she stays longer the other days or comes in on Sundays. Either way, it gives you a chance to shine without anyone else there.

Focus on your progress.

Thank you that really helps! She doesn’t make up for it but I really don’t care if she does or not. I just hope that I have more time to study on Friday afternoon instead of doing a lot of meaningless tasks.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

I am a third-year med student in clinical rotations right now. I am on the same team with another medical student who is Jewish. She leaves at around 12:30 every Friday to observe Shabbat. I respect her religious belief, however from what I've heard, Shabbat starts at sunset. She told me that she leaves early because she also has to prepare for Shabbat such as doing grocery shopping, cooking, and taking a shower. Since we are the only two medical students on our team, her workload falls onto my shoulder every Friday afternoon. I just feel very unfair but at the same time, it seems like you can't be mad at someone's religious belief. Can someone help me stop being so grumpy?

You can convert and join her.

 

[cj_cregg]

So you get more opportunities for facetime with the residents and attendings, more opportunities for patient interaction, more opportunities for learning than she does. (Walking patients and updating handoffs may seem like grunt work, but they are necessary and important for patient care even if they're boring.) Moreover, I would imagine this is at maximum an 8 week rotation that you're paired up with her, so who cares in the long run?

 

[Captain_Falcon]

My concern would actually be not what is going on now. But what is this student going to do when they are a resident, who work days nights dinners second breakfast holidays weekends week days birthdays wedding anniversaries etc

 

[Dantes]

Tasks like updating handoffs, walking post op patients, are done by med students. Since she’s gone, I’m the only one doing them

Sounds like that's more on the residents for delegating and dumping more work on you. Which sucks, but maybe you can spin it as a positive for evals hopefully.

 

[Anakinmemer]

Honestly good for her. Too many students are gaslighted by admin to think they owe the school/hospital something. You're PAYING for a service, ie a medical education. If your evaluators deem you clinically competent, missing some days or afternoons clinical year should be your choice. Again, you're the one paying.

 

[mrbreakfast]

But what is this student going to do when they are a resident

They go to a residency that will accommodate this practice, of which there are a number. In some parts of this country, this is less uncommon than people might realize.


You should view this as extra opportunities to learn and get better. The unfortunate truth is that, invariably in residency or in practice, you'll end up covering for other people a lot, and it might be a lot less convenient than a half-day a week. Worry about what you are doing, not what others are/are not doing.

 

[Captain_Falcon]

They go to a residency that will accommodate this practice, of which there are a number. In some parts of this country, this is less uncommon than people might realize.


You should view this as extra opportunities to learn and get better. The unfortunate truth is that, invariably in residency or in practice, you'll end up covering for other people a lot, and it might be a lot less convenient than a half-day a week. Worry about what you are doing, not what others are/are not doing.

Really? I had no idea

 

[Goro]

Really? I had no idea

Think Einstien

 

[operaman]

Think Einstien

And even at others that aren’t as accommodating, I’ve known residents who managed to horse trade their way to a schedule that worked for their religious practices most of the time.

For someone like this, they can arrange for their one day off per week to be Saturday. And if they get assigned any Saturday calls then they can trade someone else for a Sunday call. Usually co residents will help people out, especially if it means they’re covering other days for you.

It’s very doable, but it does usually mean that your days off are always dedicated to your religious practice. For some people who are very devout, this is a trade off they’re willing to make.

 

[BigPikachu]

I would like to hope the Attending & Residents & Interns are not dumping work needlessly onto Students; at the end of the day, it's the Residents & Interns job to do the handover sheets and clerk patients; Students are really there to learn and experience by doing some of these jobs, but they should not be used as unpaid labour and nor should the burden of repsonsibility fall upon Students.

Having said that, I would first approach your concerns cordially with your fellow student on the clerkship/rotation with you if the workload can be fairly distributed prior to her leaving early on Fridays to observe the Sabbath. Failing that, escalate the issue professionally through your chain-of-command with either the clinical staff at the hospital or academic faculty of your medical school. Most Attendings and Chief/Senior Residents nowadays should know how to have conversations like this with junior staff and rectify this issue early so that it doesn't become a storm in a teacup later down the track.

 

[Tangerine123]

We are 3 residents at my ward. Since the beginning one of them asked us if he could come in an hour late every day to drop his daughter at daycare. We agreed and had no issue with it because we are decent human beings that understand that we all live different circumstances and some need help with accomodations.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Tasks like updating handoffs, walking post op patients, are done by med students. Since she’s gone, I’m the only one doing them

Thank you that really helps! She doesn’t make up for it but I really don’t care if she does or not. I just hope that I have more time to study on Friday afternoon instead of doing a lot of meaningless tasks.

Not to seem tone deaf but this doesn’t seem like a big deal. You’re getting more face time with residents/attendings and you’re a student so it’s not like you’re getting paid. You’re there to learn. Those responsibilities belong to residents/attendings. If you feel like you’re doing more than your fair share as a student and need more study time then speak to them about it. I don’t see a reason to be upset with the other student for observing her religious practices. Life isn’t just work or school. Even in other jobs these trade offs happen where some people leave earlier or work other shifts for things they need to do. Focus on your own work.

 

[Radetzky]

Med students have to walk patients? Your hospital doesn’t have therapists?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You're a medical student. Being the type to complain will turn off some people, but i agree your classmate is gaming the system

 

[palmerspoint]

I always hear students talk about having to “work”. You’re not really working as a student, you’ll find that out real fast day 1 of intern year. It sounds like a BS arrangement on your end for sure, but like others have said maybe they’ve got an arrangement with the attending/program.

Now as to accommodations made by residency programs that is big time hit or miss. You go into a surgical field, especially a busy one that relies on residents there’s minimal chance that’s going to happen. People really should be considering these things when picking a field because no matter what an individual thinks is “fair” or “owed” to them no program has an obligation to let you out of work. Some are cool and may do so, but I wouldn’t count on it. Most residents with religious obligations have to make self sacrifices to adhere to them, that’s just life (regardless of residency)

^granted not your point here, but important nonetheless

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Not to seem tone deaf but this doesn’t seem like a big deal. You’re getting more face time with residents/attendings and you’re a student so it’s not like you’re getting paid. You’re there to learn. Those responsibilities belong to residents/attendings. If you feel like you’re doing more than your fair share as a student and need more study time then speak to them about it. I don’t see a reason to be upset with the other student for observing her religious practices. Life isn’t just work or school. Even in other jobs these trade offs happen where some people leave earlier or work other shifts for things they need to do. Focus on your own work.

She uses the time to go grocery shopping, cooking and showering. Those are all excuses. She can do all her grocery shopping and cooking at another time and showering is a 15 minute activity. She's gaming the system

 

[DarkBluMage]

She uses the time to go grocery shopping, cooking and showering. Those are all excuses. She can do all her grocery shopping and cooking at another time and showering is a 15 minute activity. She's gaming the system

Imagine trying to control other peoples lives and how they do things. Get over yourself. You have no idea what other responsibilities she has during the week that would make it hard for her to do that. She’s communicated her needs and her rotation sites are being accommodating. That’s all that matters. Stop worrying so much about other people.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Imagine trying to control other peoples lives and how they do things. Get over yourself. You have no idea what other responsibilities she has during the week that would make it hard for her to do that. She’s communicated her needs and her rotation sites are being accommodating. That’s all that matters. Stop worrying so much about other people.

Your generation playing the perpetual victim. You chose medical school. It's basically a job. Yes, you get told to be at work. No, you don't get to use your religion as an excuse. You're telling me that because I don't believe in your religion I don't get special time? Please, you get over yourself

 

[DarkBluMage]

Your generation playing the perpetual victim. You chose medical school. It's basically a job. Yes, you get told to be at work. No, you don't get to use your religion as an excuse. You're telling me that because I don't believe in your religion I don't get special time? Please, you get over yourself

Whose generation? You’re literally crying about a random person getting accommodations. Something that literally has nothing to do with you. Yet here you are, crying. Get a life and worry about yourself. Stop trying to control how other people go about their lives. Please get it together cause it’s honestly embarrassing to read how hurt you are over something that doesn’t concern nor affect you. If you want “special time” then go ask for it. 🙄

 

[wholeheartedly]

She uses the time to go grocery shopping, cooking and showering. Those are all excuses. She can do all her grocery shopping and cooking at another time and showering is a 15 minute activity. She's gaming the system

Read up a bit on Shabbat. It isn’t just routine grocery shopping, cooking, and showering. It’s a whole religious ritual of preparation that takes time.

 

[KoKoOnaJo]

Med school is unfair!

 

[wysdoc]

I am a third-year med student in clinical rotations right now. I am on the same team with another medical student who is Jewish. She leaves at around 12:30 every Friday to observe Shabbat. I respect her religious belief, however from what I've heard, Shabbat starts at sunset. She told me that she leaves early because she also has to prepare for Shabbat such as doing grocery shopping, cooking, and taking a shower. Since we are the only two medical students on our team, her workload falls onto my shoulder every Friday afternoon. I just feel very unfair but at the same time, it seems like you can't be mad at someone's religious belief. Can someone help me stop being so grumpy?

If you are on another rotation with her in the future, the chief resident or PD can assign her Sunday call days instead.
This worked pretty well when I was a resident because the Jewish resident didn't care if he was on every Sunday, but his Friday/Saturday off was very important to him.
It will all work out.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Read up a bit on Shabbat. It isn’t just routine grocery shopping, cooking, and showering. It’s a whole religious ritual of preparation that takes time.

From noon to sundown? Again, your religious beliefs are yours. If they interfere with your job, find a new one. Everyone trying to just be special and take no responsibility. Besides, I'm responding based on what OP said he was told she needed to do

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Whose generation? You’re literally crying about a random person getting accommodations. Something that literally has nothing to do with you. Yet here you are, crying. Get a life and worry about yourself. Stop trying to control how other people go about their lives. Please get it together cause it’s honestly embarrassing to read how hurt you are over something that doesn’t concern nor affect you. If you want “special time” then go ask for it. 🙄

I'm not crying about anything. Again, you're trying to make yourself the victim. You're not any kind of victim. I simply said she was gaming the system, which she is. Lets turn this argument on its head. Here you are crying over some random guy on the internet feeling that she's gaming the system. See how easy it is to turn things on you? Go be a victim to someone else. The adults in the room see right through you

 

[DarkBluMage]

I'm not crying about anything. Again, you're trying to make yourself the victim. You're not any kind of victim. I simply said she was gaming the system, which she is. Let’s turn this argument on its head. Here you are crying over some random guy on the internet feeling that she's gaming the system. See how easy it is to turn things on you? Go be a victim to someone else. The adults in the room see right through you

Where did I say anything about being a victim? It’s like you’re trying to find something to cry and be offended about. All I said was to mind your business. Try not to be so miserable, it’s not a good look 😂

 

[DarkBluMage]

From noon to sundown? Again, your religious beliefs are yours. If they interfere with your job, find a new one. Everyone trying to just be special and take no responsibility. Besides, I'm responding based on what OP said he was told she needed to do

You really out here crying about someone getting accommodations. Your opinion doesn’t matter my dude. The only people this concerns are the rotation sites and the student herself. Nobody cares about how you feel about other people respecting someone’s religious beliefs enough to work with them for their situation 😂

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Where did I say anything about being a victim? It’s like you’re trying to find something to cry and be offended about. All I said was to mind your business. Try not to be so miserable, it’s not a good look 😂

Trying to turn the argument on its head, adding gifs, yeah, it sounds like you're quite done and now you're trying hard to just get a rise out of me because that's all that's left. Nice try. See you

 

[TheRealBatmanMD]

Honestly, that sounds like a blessing in disguise. I hated when I was paired with another med student during rotations. Multiple students= dilution of a resident's time. Gonna have to tolerate it for another year during sub-Is.

 

[wysdoc]

@AlbinoHawk DO and @DarkBluMage
You've both made your points, now to use a boxing term, please go to your corners and cool down.

 

[RangerBob]

Honestly this sort of thing just happens time to time. My advice is to presume that the clerkship director has determined your fellow student's request, including the amount of time they have off Friday, is all reasonable and necessary.

At one point the residents above me fell below "critical mass." Between one being out on maternity and then another two being out due to serious unexpected injuries/and/or death of immediate family member, we didn't have staffing. Co-residents didn't complain--they did the work, covered more patients, saw more consults, did more admits. Residents on electives got pulled into staffing the floors. Attendings ran services on their own. Everyone pitched in because that's what a team does.

Medicine, and life, is much easier if you take a pay-it-forward attitude. Help others meet their needs (whether it's a pregnant or injured coworker, burnt out collegue who needs time off, etc.), and in turn others will help you if/when you need it. Maybe you never need help--that's great, consider yourself fortunate in health/life.

The same attitude will help in marriage--don't keep score. The urge goes up once you have kids--resist the urge!!

 

[nofliesonme]

I am not Jewish but I think this situation brings up interesting questions between professional and religious obligations.Shabbat begins a few minutes before sundown, leaving at 12:30 is 4 hours early. Shopping and food preparation can be done before work on Friday or Thursday evening. An accommodation can be provided with less of an impact on the members of the team. I am curious, about other issues: is taking a shower a violation of Shabbos? From a cursory google search it appears that the responsibility to preserve human life (ie firefighter, doctors) is a permissible reason to violate Shabbos. I'm interested...can i get guidance from a higher authority about the do's and don'ts of Shabbos behavior.
Shalom

 

[JP2740]

Honestly, that sounds like a blessing in disguise. I hated when I was paired with another med student during rotation. Multiple students= dilution of a resident's time. Gonna have to tolerate it for another year during sub-Is.

I agree. I used to say I can do anything for a year. Most of the really painful moments in medicine let up in one year - 2nd year of med school, usually first or second year of training depending on your program, etc. If something bothered me and it was only for 2 months? I wouldn’t even think much about it. That’s too short. You will be bothered by much more.

 

[cj_cregg]

I am not Jewish but I think this situation brings up interesting questions between professional and religious obligations.Shabbat begins a few minutes before sundown, leaving at 12:30 is 4 hours early. Shopping and food preparation can be done before work on Friday or Thursday evening. An accommodation can be provided with less of an impact on the members of the team. I am curious, about other issues: is taking a shower a violation of Shabbos? From a cursory google search it appears that the responsibility to preserve human life (ie firefighter, doctors) is a permissible reason to violate Shabbos. I'm interested...can i get guidance from a higher authority about the do's and don'ts of Shabbos behavior.
Shalom

I am not Jewish and cannot speak to the requirements, however I'm sure the student in this case is aware that some folks have negative attitudes like some of the ones displayed in this thread and would not ask for the time off if she did not feel it was important/necessary. My (very limited, non-Jewish) understanding of Shabbat is that bathing is not permitted, nor is food preparation/cooking OR reheating (you can only keep it warm using certain methods), and if I were in those shoes, I can certainly see the value of being able to shower and prepare food immediately beforehand.

Regarding the responsibility to preserve human life - fair point...if this were a resident or attending. I have never had a circumstance where my team in the hospital or the clinic literally cannot function without a medical student (in fact, it's often more efficient without - not to knock you guys by any means, but the time we spend teaching is time that could be spent getting our stuff done and then going home earlier). I cannot imagine that any medical student's presence is necessary to preserve human life. Perhaps this student will not mind being on call when she is a resident or attending with direct patient care responsibilities, but for now, she's not needed. I have had coresidents from various religions who needed time away or accommodations to observe religious practices. We made it happen when we could, and they worked without complaint when we couldn't. They covered for others on holidays they didn't celebrate, when people were sick or had sick kids, etc. I'm not particularly religious but it is clear to me that religious practices are often an important part of people's culture, family life, wellness, etc. and I would certainly hope that my colleagues at every level of training take opportunities to participate in those things when it's reasonable to do so. Medical school is a time when it's reasonable to do so.

Finally, it should be noted that the Civil Rights Act requires employers by law to make reasonable accommodations for employees to practice their religious traditions. Obviously not necessarily pertinent now because she is a student, not an employee, but for those who have said she won't find a residency program/attending job that will do this - as long as it's not significantly disruptive to patient care or hugely unfair to other residents, it is mandatory.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Reframing the issue may help the OP. If sometimes this service only has one student, I expect that student would do all the work, on all the patients, all of the time. Instead, you have two students for most of the time - so a lower workload for most of the week.

As mentioned above, we don't know all the details of her circumstances. Fri at noon does seem out of the norm, though.

Also on the bright side, hopefully your eval will say: @tiredmedstudent010 picked up the slack for a co-student with frequent absences without complaint.

 

[deleted1139416]

Also on the bright side, hopefully your eval will say: @tiredmedstudent010 picked up the slack for a co-student with frequent absences without complaint.

THIS! I had a somewhat similar situation (my colleague was out for an entire week because of COVID) so my load doubled and I did it without complaining because I know it wasn't her fault that she got COVID. But my attending gave me an extremely good eval and honors (and he even said it was his first time giving a student honors).

 

[TheRealBatmanMD]

I would 100% respect her religious belief if I didn’t have a feeling that she was gaming the system. Even on days that are not Friday, she would skip surgeries to sleep in the on call room or be on the phone for most of the time. She even lied that she was in the OR, wasting opportunity for other students to scrub in since only one med student was allowed to be scrubbed in. She never left that early when she had a strict senior, but suddenly needed to leave at noon to prepare when we switched team to an easy going senior.

Bud, just take it easy. Your rotation is only 8 weeks or so (and I'm assuming you're already more than halfway through) and in the grand scheme of things, you're going to encounter far far more bothersome things as a resident or beyond. Also, the only one student scrubbed in policy sounds whack.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

People who game the system like this are very annoying. But ultimately it usually ends up causing them big problems. I wouldn't try to "turn them in", but neither would I cover for them. Someone complains that there were no students in the OR to help, and she was assigned, you simply tell them that. Or, start showing up for surgeries where she is assigned -- if she doesn't show, you get more time in the OR.

 

[Billiam95]

I would 100% respect her religious belief if I didn’t have a feeling that she was gaming the system. Even on days that are not Friday, she would skip surgeries to sleep in the on call room or be on the phone for most of the time. She even lied that she was in the OR, wasting opportunity for other students to scrub in since only one med student was allowed to be scrubbed in. She never left that early when she had a strict senior, but suddenly needed to leave at noon to prepare when we switched team to an easy going senior.

Got reamed out and interrogated on the only time on my surgery rotation where a student wasn't in the case (wasn't my case, other student forgot). Couldn't imagine trying to skip out on purpose.

 

[FutureInternist]

My concern would actually be not what is going on now. But what is this student going to do when they are a resident, who work days nights dinners second breakfast holidays weekends week days birthdays wedding anniversaries etc

I went to Touro and had multiple Jewish attendings.
They all worked the usual days since, as per them, the book says that saving one life is equal to saving humanity.

Perhaps as a student, you are not actively saving anyone so there is some leeway?

 

[FutureInternist]

you get more time in the OR.

I would rather take a scalpel to the eyeball.. than have “more time in OR” 😏

 

[cj_cregg]

I would 100% respect her religious belief if I didn’t have a feeling that she was gaming the system. Even on days that are not Friday, she would skip surgeries to sleep in the on call room or be on the phone for most of the time. She even lied that she was in the OR, wasting opportunity for other students to scrub in since only one med student was allowed to be scrubbed in. She never left that early when she had a strict senior, but suddenly needed to leave at noon to prepare when we switched team to an easy going senior.

Okay, so then it sounds like the issue is her behavior as a whole and not that she is taking time away to observe her religious beliefs then, am I understanding that correctly? So that's an entirely different conversation than the one you initially posted.

Be honest but neutral if you're asked where she is, etc. Know that your residents and attendings almost certainly know what's going on even if they don't explicitly say so to you, and that her evals and reputations will reflect her behavior. Trust that students with a pattern of laziness often don't reach their goals, and those with a pattern of working hard often do. And even if by some chance she does get good evals and matches to her dream program despite her apparent character flaws...it doesn't hurt you at all. Not worth losing sleep over.

 

[collegestud2013]

I would 100% respect her religious belief if I didn’t have a feeling that she was gaming the system. Even on days that are not Friday, she would skip surgeries to sleep in the on call room or be on the phone for most of the time. She even lied that she was in the OR, wasting opportunity for other students to scrub in since only one med student was allowed to be scrubbed in. She never left that early when she had a strict senior, but suddenly needed to leave at noon to prepare when we switched team to an easy going senior.

A lot of your responsibilities as a med student will depend on what residents, fellows, and attendings assign to you. Most residents (and even attendings), especially on General Surgery, will tend to be overworked and that leads to dumping more menial work on the student.

The other student may end up with a poorer evaluation than you at the end of the day if what you're saying is true (unless she is better connected with the residents somehow). That can be a big deal since 3rd year grades are high stakes for residency application (unless you go to a true P/F school). Maybe she doesn't care so much about going over the top since she's no planning on going for a surgical specialty. But if she's lying and your residents won't do anything about it, that's something to escalate to your clerkship director.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

As a medical school student, it doesnt really affect you because ultimately no one is counting on you to do the work so to speak. Ultimately its still the residents job, you're there to learn and offer support but the hospital still goes on either way.

If I was still a resident, and a coresident was doing this on the same service I probably would be annoyed though and see if I could find a balance with the other person. When I was a resident and did outpatient work at the VA, the patient load was sort of shared between the residents on for that block and I was always paired with someone who would come in 3 hours late, or call in sick every friday so i would end up doing double the load. Sure you could argue that equates to more experience, but eventually the positive of that wears off.