Cleveland Clinic vs. Yale vs. Univ. Chicago for internal med

[360]

Hi guys,

For internal med, how you you rank these programs? I think I might want to go into cardiology.

It seems like some people think Cleveland Clinic is not that great, eventhough it was # 6 in 1998 and replaced MGH as #3 in 2006. Why?

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[medgrad]

I can attempt to answer the bit on CCF:

Resident quality at CCF leaves a lot to be desired. I am an IMG myself ( from india) and after looking at the resident profile of IMGs CCF has recruited from India I was a bit disappointed. For example, I saw few residents from medical schools where people pay a lot of money just to get admitted ( this fact does not forebode well for medical school quality in India). Moreover how many residents from its training program does CCF take for its 'prestigious' cardio fellowship??? I do know that their residents work hard, but something is not right about their residency program.

I had to decline the prematch offer made by CCF because of these reasons and I am only too glad that I will be pretty low on their rank list.....

I wd say your choice is b/w Chicago and Yale. CCF shd be somewhere in the middle/lower third of your rank list.

 

[harrison]

i would rank university of chicago over yale. I got rejected from U of C, but got an interview from Yale. Just to show that U of C seems to be more competitive, and better city than new haven by far...

 

[Rocky2007]

I would go to Yale or U of C above CCF. The cleveland clinic is a good place for fellowship, but not residency. I wouldn't pay attention to those US news hospital rankings to base your decision of where to do your residency. Yale and U of C are much stronger programs than CCF.

 

[EaglesPA]

i would rank university of chicago over yale. I got rejected from U of C, but got an interview from Yale. Just to show that U of C seems to be more competitive, and better city than new haven by far...

I don't think your n=1 experience makes U of Chicago more competitive than Yale. I also know of a student who got rejected by Albert Einstein (NY) but got interviews at Hopkins, MGH and Brigham - that doesn't make Einstein the most competitive program in the country!
As for Chicago being a better city than New Haven, well that depends on your definition of "better"
Anyway, I agree that for IM residency I would pick either of Yale or U of C over Cleveland clinic. Of course Cardiology fellowship is a whole different matter

 

[anonymous11]

I liked both U Chicago and Yale. Didn't apply to Cleveland. I think the quality of training at both are probably similar. It probably comes down to how keen you are about living in Chicago vs New Haven.

I'm having a similar debate. I'm planning on going with my gut feelings and then maybe also purusing some of the reading material they gave us and specifically looking at the fellowship match list. I think this is probably more important if you're interested in a competitive specialty like GI or cardiology.

Do you remember what the fellowship placement was like at the two places? I remember being fairly impressed with the fellowship list at Chicago. Not sure about Yale though.

 

[EaglesPA]

I liked both U Chicago and Yale. Didn't apply to Cleveland. I think the quality of training at both are probably similar. It probably comes down to how keen you are about living in Chicago vs New Haven.

I'm having a similar debate. I'm planning on going with my gut feelings and then maybe also purusing some of the reading material they gave us and specifically looking at the fellowship match list. I think this is probably more important if you're interested in a competitive specialty like GI or cardiology.

Do you remember what the fellowship placement was like at the two places? I remember being fairly impressed with the fellowship list at Chicago. Not sure about Yale though.

I was quite impressed with Yale's fellowship match - I think it rivals that of most of the top IM programs.
For 2006:

Cardiology:
Cleveland Clinic x2
UCSF
Stanford
Yale x2
Mount Sinai
NYU
Tufts
UI-Chicago

Heme/Onc:
Stanford
Penn
MD Anderson CC
U of Chicago
Strong Memorial

GI:
Mount Sinai
Yale
Tufts

 

[Adcadet]

Well, here's another vote for Yale being less selective than UofChicago, as I was invited to interview at Yale but not UofC (now n=2).

I agree that the Yale match list is amazing, but there's a few caveats to consider: 1) I'm not sure if that counts chief residents, but I suspect it doesn't as a Chief I talked to was not listed on the sheet they gave out, but maybe they include him with last year's grads; 2)I'm not sure if that match list includes those who took extra time for research, like the MPH, RWJ, or PhD options, and I'm not sure its fair to include those people in the match list.

If you are serious about an academic career and are interested in doing an extra 1 (MPH), 2 (RWJ Clinical Scholars), or 3 years (PhD) for research training, I think Yale is hard to beat and is at least comparable to the Harvard programs' CITP and CSP programs. That being said, I've got to image that similar training is available in fellowship (i.e.-MPH during subspecialty or general IM fellowship, RWJ Clinical Scholars program coming from the non-RWJ sites of Penn, Yale, UCLA, and UMichigan) or junior faculty format (i.e.-K08) at many places.

 

[MiaBella]

currently a 3rd year medicine resident at CCF. It's unfortunate that certain stigmas have stuck to the CCF-IM program for years- way before our time. Years-past 'bad' impressions are hard to change.
Just a few comments: To base the 'quality' of ALL our residents at our program on one's impression of his local country's politics should be taken with a grain of salt. Moreover, before you grade how 'poor' our program is based on how many our 'prestigious cardiology fellowship' takes into their program, you should look a little closer into the politics/+/-'s within their cardiovascular department - pedigree & who you get along with are sometimes more important than quality to some 'individuals'-the one who said you shouldn't base a program's quality from the US News reports was correct. Next, I'd encourage you to look at the % of our graduates that match into their respective fellowships and compare it to the % from other programs (the # of US grads, IMGs, and DOs)- our program does well for pulm/CC(stanford, ccf,etc.), rheum(ccf,Mgh), GI(ccf,mayo, pitt), cards(hodgepodge), allergy, heme/onc(nih,md anderson,washingt- if it's names you care about. Do you care more if 1 resident out of 30 from a program gets into mgh for cards, or 25 residents from a program getting into cards both at larger/smaller programs.
When residency shopping, do yourself a favor and speak to several people from/within the program/objective people whose opinions you trust rather than having your opinions based from any chatboard.
Lastly, determining the quality of residents/education of any program is obviously difficulty. As far as our humble program is concerned, we have an excellent mix of folks- most are great, very few are not. Base your choice on colleagiality, educational opportunities (research, clinicopathology exposure, blah), mentorship- CCF has plenty of the above. Researching and caring for patients with world's experts have been a great experience here as i'm sure is the case at many other academic institutions. Weakest quality: This is a strong program for IM-subspecialty-based training and not-so-much for outpatient primary care unless your longitudinal clinic is at the main campus (then it's excellent for OPD PCP medicine).
I am not sure if/when the public perception of CCFs-IM training will change in time as it does not accurately reflect the true workings/calibur of our program by any means. I welcome any specific inquiries. I am biased, I should be as I've had a great time here all bulls... aside.
interestingly, we have several residents in our program from the Chicago systems (U of C, etc)-i don't think they came here because they didn't match in chicago...

 

[GooglieGoo]

MiaBella - I want to believe that CCF is a great place, I really do. But each time I hear current residnets speak, I'm left hanging. At least you bring up some interesting points: the rheum match (which last I checked you can match into as a 3rd year med student, so its amusing to see you bring it up), a description of some medical education system that doesn't actually exist (in this case the "Chicago system"), or or vague references to politics (while not mentioning the publicised ethical challenges). But at least you're trying. If you could, would you be so kind as to post a match list? If possible, it would be great to hear about the number who matched and didn't match, too. Can you link to a list of current residents and where they're from (not the "profiles" they list on the website, but actual numbers)? Can you tell us the number of US MD grads, DO's, and FMGs in the program? Can you comment on how CCF compares to Mayo, since I hear these two places described as similar? Thanks.

 

[360]

Thanks for all the comments!!!

Personally I think all 3 programs are excellent, both in terms of clinical training and research opportunities. Quality of life is another issue and it depends on so many factors, so lets not go there.

I like all 3 programs, and I have a hard time to decide. However, I don't really how/why the internal medicine training program at Cleveland Clinic has not been popular, I was quite impressed when I visited this program. The people were very nice, and overall fellowship placement over the last 3 years has become better and better. It is quite competitive, with average USMLE step 1CK 92 and step 2 CK 94 this year. Yes, they get some DOs and IMGs, but while many see as a weakness I personally feel this is one of the things I like most about CCF. If they want to, I think with such a name they can intentionally fill all spots with AMGs. However, I really admire them for giving opportunity to DOs and IMGs.

Some people seem to use internal cardiology fellowship placement at CCF as the main reason why they feel CCF is not great for internal medicine training. I think they have a point, but I also think they focus on a small point and fail to look at the whole picture. CCF cards is probably the one of the most competitive programs in the US, and people there want and receive the best of the best applicants. Of the 10-12 CCF internal medicine residents, per year, who match for cards, about 2 get in at CCF. Obviously, many programs in general tend to take more from their internal pool, and I personally would want to see them taking more. However, it is not too bad since CCF medicine residents also go to other highly respected programs. Also, consider the high number of DOs and IMGs, since many cards progarms, including CCF, tend to favor AMGs, the overall high percentage of CCF medicine residents who match for cards is quite impressive.

Speaking of academics and research, CCF is not that bad. CCF has the Lerner Research Institute with significant research productivity. It is not MGH or Hopkins, but its funding is not too bad, around 120-150 millions per year for basic science alone, I believe. Obviously, CCF is doing lot of clincial and population research projects. Recently, CCF opened its own medical school with a unique 5-year MD program to train physician scientists.

So CCF overall is not that bad, isn't it?

 

[toogood1]

I interviewed at CCF and I thought the program was great. Also I am a DO student. I don't know why people think that CCF may is not a really exceptional program just because there are some DOs and FMGs. I had the opportunity to rotate there and I know firsthand what a wonderful program they have. There residents are really good and deserve to be there. So don't think it's wounderful that CCF gave them the opportunity to be there--they earned it and deserve it. Everyone is entitiled to their own opinion, but you can't dismiss that this program is world renown--spreading beyond the US. Not too many programs can surpass their fellowship placement rates either.

 

[mtoto]

Pos’: Dedication to research- apart from the ABIM track there is also a Clinical Scholars track to which residents who have already matched into the program may apply for. This track allows for a 4 month research block in PGY2- 2 months are coursework and the next 2 are research. Admission to this track is on a competitive basis with 5/11 of the residents applying last year admitted. The application process is fairly involved with 2 LORs and a project proposal required. Even if you are not in this track however it looks like the program will still bend over sideways to make sure that you participate in meaningful research and publish! The focus is on increasing the prestige of the program and getting the CCF name out there. As a result, if you are accepted to a present at a meeting, you will be funded to go. Plus CCF has it’s own medical journal and will make efforts to publish its residents work. In PGY3 you also get $1300 to attend a meeting of your choice (you don’t even have to present). While there is no book money, you do get a bunch of free books including Tarascon’s Pharmacopeia, Pocket Med, Wash Manual of IM and more. You also get to attend a week long board review course hosted by the CCF for free! Board pass rate was 96% last year.

The physical plant is awesome. Post call taxi home is provided. Lunch is always provided but never by Pharma. Work hours seem a bit more reasonable then other academic programs. Day call is until 4pm with a 4 pt admission cap. Night call caps at 5 pts (including transfers) so less then ACGME limits of 5+2 transfers. Interns cap at 10 pts. Ave resident work hrs quoted to be 55h/wk.

Many opportunities to do procedures (under ultrasound of course). There is even a simulation center to practice procedures before actually having to do them on people in intern year. Advisor meets with you 2-3x/year. Apparently the program is not “fellow run” and this is a myth.

Fellowship match list is excellent (I would say better then at CASE UH) esp. for cardiology (even though not many of residents stay at CCF many go on to better known programs).

Top Ohio medicaid provider (only slightly over CASE UH).

Neg’s: The residents I spoke to affirmed that a lot of the pts have foot long histories and multiple morbidities which could be a neg or pos depending on how you looked at it. The residents seem like a rather serious bunch. The administration seems “nice” but dull. 60-70% pts from the greater Cleveland area and 2-3% international begs the question of who the other 30% of pts come from… complicated referrals or the upper crust? That’s a lot of complicated pts and upper crust. There is little to no interest in international health.

Overall: I would highly recommend this program to someone wanting Cards (anywhere) or wanting to build up their CV with research.

Someone asked about the match list... I'll post info about GI and Cards.

2006 Grads n=43 including 2 chiefs and 4 primary care
Cards 12 matched
CCF
Minnesota
Stanford
Iowa
Pitt
Milwaukee
Kansas
Arizona
UCLA/Cedars Sinai
Baylor
IndianaU
Metrohealth

GI 4 matched
Wake Forest
Mayo Roch
Temple
CCF

2005 Grads n=38 including 2 chiefs and 3 primary care
Cards 9 matched
URochester
Kentucky
Albert Einstein
UAB
UCLA
Lankenau
Baylor
Brown
Strong Mem

GI 2 matched
CCF
UVirginia

To me the Cards match here seems very strong though it is not a who's who list- GI less so.

 

[medgrad]

oops! double post.

 

[medgrad]

"To base the 'quality' of ALL our residents at our program on one's impression of his local country's politics should be taken with a grain of salt. "

Country's politics??????

To put things simply: I saw some medical schools on the list that are presumed to be really "bad" in India because of their reputation; no questions asked about their reputation. Not that there is anything wrong with them

I did see one name from All India Institute < but dont know anything beyond that.

But this does make me wonder about resident selection at CCF. Who knows how they are selecting.................

Another thing: why does CCF take IMGs only on prematches??
Check up their numbers on NRMP( have gone down drastically).

There are two ways to look at this:
1 Either the quality of AMGs they are getting is not "top notch"(considering that they are a "top notch hospital"). As a program director it makes sense to think that he ( the PD)cannot fill his program with crappy residents ( to make sure that things get done in the hospital). But I also know that the many IMGs in CCF are not "awesome ": so I am confused. But I am sure that there are good residents among AMGs and IMGs there.
OR
2.CCF is not sure if it will fill in the match: and if they go unfilled their reputation comes down. I think that they offered close to 12 or 13 prematches this year.

BTW this whole exchange has been interesting in terms of how a programs reputation comes crashing down if they take a lot of IMGs.


I have seen IMGs at some "lesser known" US university programs ( that are not as highly ranked as hospitals on US news): but their residents were "
really good" on Morning report.

May be I am biased against CCF as I felt almost pressured to take the offer. My main reason for not accepting this position was that I had other calls ( better ones) and I was not impressed with their fellwoship match list ( not being a snot here )

BTW which year of his residency did the guy who is cards at UAB match ?? ( if I remember correctly he had to do an MPH to boost his stats)

I am deeply sorry if I have offended any CCF resident's self-esteem here.

Peace.

 

[Charge!]

Y'all are making me laugh. Quit quibling folks! Bottom-line - go to a residency where you think you will thrive. I interviewed at CCF and personally found the program very impressive. I DONT CARE whether my colleagues are IMGs or AMGS. All I care about is the quality of training I get and can the program help me fulfill my goal of becoming a GREAT doctor? All this quibbling over IMGs vs AMGS is slightly asinine and I think demeaning to all of our colleagues who are not AMGs. You do realize people outside of the US have brains? I also find it offensive that v r banding people incompetent simply on the basis of what med school they went too. There are incompetent doctors from Harvard as there are from any other place, and vice-versa. Irrespective of your opinion plz give us hard numbers/facts about CCF, not opinion or innuendo.

 

[360]

Obviously I think Medgrad is entiled to have and express his/her own opinion, and I certainly wish him/her the very best.

As an AMG, I honestly don't know much about the pre-match business. However, I have nothing but tremendous respect for folks from other countries who have to overcome a lot to come to this country, and then overcome a lot more to get into and finish their training here. I could care less how they get into CCF, through the pre-match or regular match. If they get in, I think they are are highly qualified and that how the PD chose them. Based on what Medgrad wrote, he/she appears to be an IMG, too. Medicne is a noble profession, and I hope we can keep it that way.