Cleveland Clinic - why so many foreign/DO?

[hoopie]

So this is something I can't figure out. It seems like almost the entire group of neuro residents st Cleveland Clinic is made up of either foreign grads or DOs. Anyone have any insight into why this is? I want to say straight away, not trying to knock these folks, I'm fully aware that many are every bit as qualified as an American MD student, if not better. But I think across the board they are looked at as lesser applicants. I've checked out the Clinic - the facilities are world class, seems like the training is reslly strong, plenty of great fellowship opportunities after. The residents all seemed fairly happy. What is it about Cleveland Clinic that it's not attracting better applicants? Is it because people don't want to go to Cleveland? This all just gives me some pause.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[typhoonegator]

All the American grads followed LeBron to Miami. They will return when he does.

Hence the saying "As LeBron goes, so goes the Cleveland Clinic neurology program's AMGs."

Seriously though I have no idea.

 

[bustbones26]

So this is something I can't figure out. It seems like almost the entire group of neuro residents st Cleveland Clinic is made up of either foreign grads or DOs. Anyone have any insight into why this is? I want to say straight away, not trying to knock these folks, I'm fully aware that many are every bit as qualified as an American MD student, if not better. But I think across the board they are looked at as lesser applicants. I've checked out the Clinic - the facilities are world class, seems like the training is reslly strong, plenty of great fellowship opportunities after. The residents all seemed fairly happy. What is it about Cleveland Clinic that it's not attracting better applicants? Is it because people don't want to go to Cleveland? This all just gives me some pause.

The Northeast and Midwest is a hotbed for DOs. They are surrounded geographically with osteopathic schools. FMGs? I am not trying to insult anybody, but have you ever noticed the prevalence of FMGs in neurology ? Cleveland is also going down hill as a city. Not long ago, they were listed as one of the poorest cities in the nation. Ever live through a winter with "Lake Effect" snow?? The clinic is indeed a fine facility, but the city may scare most people away.

 

[Plecopotamus]

So this is something I can't figure out. It seems like almost the entire group of neuro residents st Cleveland Clinic is made up of either foreign grads or DOs. Anyone have any insight into why this is? I want to say straight away, not trying to knock these folks, I'm fully aware that many are every bit as qualified as an American MD student, if not better. But I think across the board they are looked at as lesser applicants. I've checked out the Clinic - the facilities are world class, seems like the training is reslly strong, plenty of great fellowship opportunities after. The residents all seemed fairly happy. What is it about Cleveland Clinic that it's not attracting better applicants? Is it because people don't want to go to Cleveland? This all just gives me some pause.

I've been wondering the same thing, as I have an interview scheduled that I'm on the fence about attending.

I have not been able to get an answer that gives any indication that the program's reputation had fallen to become commensurate with what you'd expect for the number of DOs and FMGs . . . that said, I haven't been able to speak to anybody who actually knows their program well, and it takes time for reputations to change. If you read the old interview impressions thread, it looks like at some point several years ago some faculty left to go to Case Western -- not sure if that's relevant at all -- and at some point in one of those absurd, subjective lists ranking the schools, someone bumped CC down and may have explained why. Asking Neurologists (again, these are people in other states), I have heard a lot of comments about how it's sad that a wonderful program has trouble attracting people because of location -- weather, economic issues, etc. But the people who said this, weren't aware that there were so many FMG's or DO's there until I told them, so that was just their gut feeling about it. As has already been posted here, I've heard they have a disproportionate DOs to some extent due to regional preference. There are lots of DO programs in the Midwest, and people who are already "ok" with living in that part of the country. I presume there is also a self-fulfilling aspect to it as the more DO friendly they look, the more will apply. And I've heard the FMGs they get are really bright and shouldn't be looked upon as a sign of a problem, and that in the same way that DO students will apply to DO-friendly places, FMGs will apply to programs that they know are willing to work with them (visas and stuff).

It sounds like you interviewed with them. If you are uncomfy posting in the interview feedback, do you mind messaging me what you thought about it? I really can't decide what to do -- I got a prelim interview that is making the week of my interview crazy, and I just can't decide if I should decline to visit this program.

 

[jraginII]

I think it's important to remember the USMG neurology applicant pool is still relatively weak/shallow compared to other specialties. Seeing as I couldn't find and haven't heard another good reason, CC probably just decided to grab the highest achieving DO/IMG pool rather than dive deeper into the USMG pool after the best USMG applicants end up in partners/JHU/etc. My impression was there's no doubt you'll get top notch clinical exposure and research opportunities (their facilities/patient breadth/non-basic science research fits right in with the "elite" programs I've visited); so it just comes down to location (which they spent a large part of the interview day selling you on) and if you think training with DOs/IMGs is a big deal.

 

[typhoonegator]

Even at the so-called "elite" programs like Columbia, Hopkins, Parters, UCSF, etc. you'll still end up training with IMGs, just more from England, Ireland, Argentina, Brazil, etc. rather than some of the more prototypical connotations of the term.

 

[ocellicyst]

I'm just a MS-1, but I can say that it seems like neurology in general has a lot of IMGs/DOs. There isn't a ton of competitiveness amongst many neuro residencies (from what I can see) and I'm betting it's d/t type of patients treated, good but not great pay, and overall clinical learning needed (from what I've heard from PGY-1s). I can't imagine Cleveland Clinic is much different. Also, Cleveland is kind of a depressing sound, like mentioned before, so I know it probably won't be numero uno on my list. But hey, I guess I'll have to wait for rotations till I start dealing with that junk. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mattchiavelli]

Certain foreign medical schools get a reputation with programs for producing high quality applicants and giving programs good residents. To a program director, 5 residents from a foreign school that has produced high quality residents the past 5 years is a more solid choice than 5 residents from 5 random US programs.

My institution's IM program has something like this with American University in Beiruit. They give the IM dept high quality residents that do good work and the dept keeps going back for more. This happens at Rochester with the med school in Krakow b/c of Dr Jozefowicz. I'm sure there is a story with the most common foreign med school giving CC FMGs.

Contrary to popular belief, you can practice medicine outside the US without bloodletting, exorcisms, alligator dung, etc. You can also get through a US allopathic school with some really awful clinical skills.