Clinical Neuropsychology career vs Psychiatry

[Therapist4Chnge]

Another one of these threads....a quick search turns up dozens of prior threads, including some very recent ones.

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[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: Merged these threads in light of the similar subject matter.

 

[graduatingsoon]

The path towards being a clinical psychologist is not only very lengthy but also fraught with ambiguity and risk. Whether you graduate or not often times does not have to do with merit or your performance on exams. Now with the internship crisis in clinical psychology, you can end up applying multiple times to get a spot. Everyone i know who attended medical school graduated in 4 years. With clinical psychology, you can end up in school for 5-8+ years depending on some many factors. I think prospective students should consider whether they can handle this level of uncertainty for many years. I also think you need solid interpersonal skills to manage these types of complex interpersonal issues (especially when you don't have power in the relationship) and to land an internship these days.

 

[beBrave]

Agreed: Clinical psychology shouldn't be seen as a "shortcut" to anything (particularly given the average length of training, which for neuropsychology would be 7-9 years). Psychologists are great at what they do, but what they do isn't being a physician; if that's what you're looking for, then med school is the only way to go.

Also, a few other quick things:

-I'm wondering if you meant the GRE rather than the GMAT, as the former is far and away the more widely-used graduate exam by doctoral program admissions committees; although I wouldn't doubt that there are probably a handful that do instead look at the GMAT
-Wages and earnings are going down essentially across the board in healthcare; that said, a six-figure income isn't nearly as certain in psychology (i.e., it's not certain at all) as it is in medicine, and physicians do generally tend to have more employment flexibility (in terms of geographic restrictions particularly)...although this can vary considerably by physician specialty (I have a friend who's finishing up his fellowship training in electrocardiology who's complained about how he's going to be limited in terms of what types of cities/hospitals will be able to offer him employment, for example)
-Not sure why "neuropsychology is also becoming more integrated into overall clinical care as well" is a bad thing...? Unless you meant it as a positive aspect of psychology, or you were worried that constantly being surrounded by physicians would invoke feelings of, "would've, should've, could've..."

I meant the GRE however many will accept a GMAT score for review. Clinical Psychologist are making well below the six figure mark. With managed care the move is being brought away from seeing clinical psychologist and more towards medication management because its cheaper (Talk vs Medicine management). Neuropsychology is a weird one; their have been rumors for years that they are trying to automate the assessments more so basically computers will do most of the work; while the argument has been against this as Neuropsychologist must access this, it is still troubling; also neuropsychologist must know a lot of information; especially about disease and pharmacology but again they are not MD's and cannot prescribe medicine (with the exception of specific states that require additional training and the military).

I see it less as integration and more as pushing the psychology field out. "Head Trauma; there's a pill for that". There are just so many challenges that await. If you decide to become a Neuropsychologist or just Clinical Psychology in general, you should really love the profession. Also some hospitals actually do let MD's into their Neuropsychology programs as certification isn't a requirement to actually work as a Neuropsychologist. There is a bunch of shady things happening in the field; right down the examinations for Neuropsychologist.

EDIT: The risk is also very serious; if you don't graduate from an APA program, your chances of matching for a Clinical Psychology fellowship are slim. It's just way too much stress. Also when you go to get a job, the school you graduate from makes a bigger difference; many Neuropsychologist run around looking like Physicians; that has just been my experience; The ones working in the better hospitals or clinics usually attend a Medical School that offers a Clinical Psychology program and often list their Medical school on their resume or description page if working.

Neuropsychologist out of Post Doctoral training will work way fewer hours than Medical Doctors however they will earn considerably less. Have a more difficult time finding work; spend more time having to establish and prove credibility. This list goes on. Its just worth it. You're better off getting a Masters in Mental Health counseling or Social work (yeah they practice psychology too) if you just want to talk with people. If you wan't to do research, get a masters and then a job in research first; after this then decide if you want to spend possibly near a decade in school for Clinical Psychology.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I meant the GRE however many will accept a GMAT score for review. Clinical Psychologist are making well below the six figure mark. With managed care the move is being brought away from seeing clinical psychologist and more towards medication management because its cheaper (Talk vs Medicine management). Neuropsychology is a weird one; their have been rumors for years that they are trying to automate the assessments more so basically computers will do most of the work; while the argument has been against this as Neuropsychologist must access this, it is still troubling; also neuropsychologist must know a lot of information; especially about disease and pharmacology but again they are not MD's and cannot prescribe medicine (with the exception of specific states that require additional training and the military).

I see it less as integration and more as pushing the psychology field out. "Head Trauma; there's a pill for that". There are just so many challenges that await. If you decide to become a Neuropsychologist or just Clinical Psychology in general, you should really love the profession. Also some hospitals actually do let MD's into their Neuropsychology programs as certification isn't a requirement to actually work as a Neuropsychologist. There is a bunch of shady things happening in the field; right down the examinations for Neuropsychologist.

EDIT: The risk is also very serious; if you don't graduate from an APA program, your chances of matching for a Clinical Psychology fellowship are slim. It's just way too much stress. Also when you go to get a job, the school you graduate from makes a bigger difference; many Neuropsychologist run around looking like Physicians; that has just been my experience; The ones working in the better hospitals or clinics usually attend a Medical School that offers a Clinical Psychology program and often list their Medical school on their resume or description page if working.

Neuropsychologist out of Post Doctoral training will work way fewer hours than Medical Doctors however they will earn considerably less. Have a more difficult time finding work; spend more time having to establish and prove credibility. This list goes on. Its just worth it. You're better off getting a Masters in Mental Health counseling or Social work (yeah they practice psychology too) if you just want to talk with people. If you wan't to do research, get a masters and then a job in research first; after this then decide if you want to spend possibly near a decade in school for Clinical Psychology.

Some of what you posted certainly is accurate (especially regarding the potential pitfalls of not attending an APA-accredited graduate program). I would potentially disagree with portions of the bolded statements above, though. On average, clinical neuropsychologists aren't going to earn as much as physicians, but there are occasionally AMC staff who earn at/near what their similarly-leveled physician colleagues earn. This does of course represent a semi-outlier situation, though, so it's not something on which a person should plan. Although as you've said, the hours and duties tend to be a bit more humane for neuropsychologists vs. someone like a surgeon.

As for the "they practice psychology too" comment, I suppose that depends on how you define psychology. They practice psychotherapy, sure, but psychology and psychotherapy are not exchangeable terms.

One piece of advice certainly is clear, though--don't go to grad school in an attempt to back door your way into being a quasi-physician, as you'll end up being very unhappy. Personally, I wouldn't want a physician's job, although I do find much of the material itself to be interesting. They do have better employment prospects as a whole, but eh, who knows how this will all look in 20 years.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I would potentially disagree with portions of the bolded statements above, though. On average, clinical neuropsychologists aren't going to earn as much as physicians, but there are occasionally AMC staff who earn at/near what their similarly-leveled physician colleagues earn. This does of course represent a semi-outlier situation, though, so it's not something on which a person should plan. Although as you've said, the hours and duties tend to be a bit more humane for neuropsychologists vs. someone like a surgeon.

The Clinical Neuropsychologist puts out a salary survey every handful of years ('05 and '10 are the most recent), and the numbers support what AA wrote. Board certified neuropsychologists reported an average salary of $158k (as compared to $118k for non-boarded surveyed clinicians). 18yrs v 13yrs of average practice experience for those two groups. <1% unemployment rate was reported. The top end of earners are on the bottom end of physician earners, but the vast majority of people in neuropsychology aren't doing it for the money.

The increase in forensic assessment has really propped up the earnings, as insurance cuts have been frequent and damaging to most practices that take insurance. A 100% forensic assessment practice can yield $300k+/yr...but that tends to be "love it/hate it" type work. All of these data obviously have caveats, though the included tables provide a wealth of data for # of yrs practice, average income, setting, etc. Coming out with <1yr experience is not nearly as rosey...$70k, 17ish SD. It goes up from there...assuming you complete all of the implied hurdles to get to this point. These salaries are basically the best of the best for psych earning across specialities. This is *NOT* the typical earning curve for other areas of psychology.

Neuropsychology as a field is very competitive, requires a great deal of learning (and continued scholarship), and there are plenty of hoops that trip prospective students/clinicians along the way. Getting through it all and becoming boarded should result in a comfortable career, but that is far from a certainty these days....Caveat Emptor.

Jerry J. Sweet Ph.D. , Dawn Giuffre Meyer , Nathaniel W. Nelson & Paul J. Moberg (2011): The TCN/AACN 2010 "Salary Survey": Professional Practices, Beliefs, and Incomes of U.S. Neuropsychologists, The Clinical Neuropsychologist, 25:1, 12-61

 

[Member6523]

bebrave's writing style, use of singular "psychologist" where plural is required, and odd pedantic style involving facts, half-truths, and outright lies, reminds me of that 4041 (or whatever) dude who got banned. Is this a resurrection?

 

[graduatingsoon]

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[beBrave]

bebrave's writing style, use of singular "psychologist" where plural is required, and odd pedantic style involving facts, half-truths, and outright lies, reminds me of that 4041 (or whatever) dude who got banned. Is this a resurrection?

Member6523 this is the first time I have used this forum. Notice my post count and how low it is. Salary averages are different for clinical psychologist (Neuropsychologist) based on the state. I did do my research however different charts show different numbers. Some places report excellent job prospects while others are less than optimistic. Many facts are not facts but rather opinions or the result of limited studies. Some show little proof of actual statistical job data facts and prospects.

I see that you are a Psych student; I'm not insulting your choice however I am sharing my experiences and the things I have learned from people actually working in the field. My point isn't to argue; rather I went into Psychology thinking that I would walk out almost the equivalent of a Medical Doctor; I didn't understand what I was getting into; I didn't do my research. I simply home that some of the younger posters read this and are potentially able to learn from my experiences. I recently took the rotation quiz on student Doctors; I placed 95% for Hematology yet I have been certain that I want to be a Psychiatrist. Now I am thinking things over more carefully and realizing that I need to shadow a much wider range of Doctors and go into Medical School with an open mind. I will share a secret with you Member6523; an open mind with a little humility will open many doors for you in this world. I intend to always travel with both.

Good Luck

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Member6523 this is the first time I have used this forum. Notice my post count and how low it is. Salary averages are different for clinical psychologist (Neuropsychologist) based on the state. I did do my research however different charts show different numbers. Some places report excellent job prospects while others are less than optimistic. Many facts are not facts but rather opinions or the result of limited studies. Some show little proof of actual statistical job data facts and prospects.

I see that you are a Psych student; I'm not insulting your choice however I am sharing my experiences and the things I have learned from people actually working in the field. My point isn't to argue; rather I went into Psychology thinking that I would walk out almost the equivalent of a Medical Doctor; I didn't understand what I was getting into; I didn't do my research. I simply home that some of the younger posters read this and are potentially able to learn from my experiences. I recently took the rotation quiz on student Doctors; I placed 95% for Hematology yet I have been certain that I want to be a Psychiatrist. Now I am thinking things over more carefully and realizing that I need to shadow a much wider range of Doctors and go into Medical School with an open mind. I will share a secret with you Member6523; an open mind with a little humility will open many doors for you in this world. I intend to always travel with both.

Good Luck

Phrasing like that is likely going to ruffle a few feathers, although I know that wasn't your intention. You'd really have to define what you mean by "almost the equivalent." In terms of the overall educational hierarchy? Job prospects and salary? The elusive concepts of prestige and respect? Etc.

In the end, it sounds like you feel that you've made the right decision for you, and that relatedly you'd initially thought of entering into psychology for perhaps the wrong (or at least misguided) reasons. It's great that you were able to figure this out prior to sinking time and money into a degree/training path that wouldn't have been fulfilling for you, and I definitely think that individuals who've toyed with the ideas of both med school and clinical psych would do well to give your words thought.

 

[Member6523]

Member6523 this is the first time I have used this forum. Notice my post count and how low it is. Salary averages are different for clinical psychologist (Neuropsychologist) based on the state. I did do my research however different charts show different numbers. Some places report excellent job prospects while others are less than optimistic. Many facts are not facts but rather opinions or the result of limited studies. Some show little proof of actual statistical job data facts and prospects.

I see that you are a Psych student; I'm not insulting your choice however I am sharing my experiences and the things I have learned from people actually working in the field. My point isn't to argue; rather I went into Psychology thinking that I would walk out almost the equivalent of a Medical Doctor; I didn't understand what I was getting into; I didn't do my research. I simply home that some of the younger posters read this and are potentially able to learn from my experiences. I recently took the rotation quiz on student Doctors; I placed 95% for Hematology yet I have been certain that I want to be a Psychiatrist. Now I am thinking things over more carefully and realizing that I need to shadow a much wider range of Doctors and go into Medical School with an open mind. I will share a secret with you Member6523; an open mind with a little humility will open many doors for you in this world. I intend to always travel with both.

Good Luck

Not sure if troll, Nigerian scammer, or actually a real poster.

 

[beBrave]

Phrasing like that is likely going to ruffle a few feathers, although I know that wasn't your intention. You'd really have to define what you mean by "almost the equivalent." In terms of the overall educational hierarchy? Job prospects and salary? The elusive concepts of prestige and respect? Etc.

In the end, it sounds like you feel that you've made the right decision for you, and that relatedly you'd initially thought of entering into psychology for perhaps the wrong (or at least misguided) reasons. It's great that you were able to figure this out prior to sinking time and money into a degree/training path that wouldn't have been fulfilling for you, and I definitely think that individuals who've toyed with the ideas of both med school and clinical psych would do well to give your words thought.

Thank you for articulating my point.

 

[neuronic]

Also, shouldn't this post really by Neuropsychology vs. Behavioral Neurology? Psychiatry is a completely different beast and patient populations are vastly different.

 

[NeuroTrope]

Also, shouldn't this post really by Neuropsychology vs. Behavioral Neurology? Psychiatry is a completely different beast and patient populations are vastly different.

Yes, the majority of neuropsychology referrals stem from and are relevant for neurologists. Neuropsychologists receive training in behavioral neurology and specifically how test scores tie with neurological processes in measuring cognitive abilities. While we do receive several referrals from psychiatry, they tend to be psychiatric patients with a possible neurological condition - or, less appropriately, a frankly psychiatric case that needs diagnostic confirmation.

 

[HomeworkHelper]

Tonight, I am staying up all night trying to learn lung pathology for an exam in couple weeks - the current page I was reading (before this break 😛) was looking at pathophysiology of nonmucinous bronchioalveolar carcinoma vs. mucinous branchioalveolar carcinoma, and trying to differentiate them by cell morphology in a pathology slide - these are the types of things that will be tested. When you go to medical school, that's what you're going to be learning for 99% of the time.

Oh Lokhtar, where were you 9 years ago when I was trying to decide between psychology and psychiatry? I think your words of advice would have made it that much easier to decide. It took me until before my senior year to fully realize I was not interested in the topics I would be studying in medical school, and that was the thing that helped me make the final decision. No regrets, I LOVE psychology...and always will love learning about it.

 

[PsySeeker]

Oh Lokhtar, where were you 9 years ago when I was trying to decide between psychology and psychiatry? I think your words of advice would have made it that much easier to decide. It took me until before my senior year to fully realize I was not interested in the topics I would be studying in medical school, and that was the thing that helped me make the final decision. No regrets, I LOVE psychology...and always will love learning about it.

I couldn't agree more... To often people bash this field and state one should have been an MD/psychiatrist... Psychology has it's problems, but I don't think medical school is as a direct alternative as many posters on here seem to think it is... The training is so vastly different, one would need different interests and skills to excel, not to mention the differing requirements to gain acceptance into training for the two professions that quickly begin snowballing shortly after one has decided to focus on one over the other.