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What kinds of jobs do clinical neuropsychologists take after completing post-doctoral training? What are the salary ranges for these positions?
PublicHealth said:What kinds of jobs do clinical neuropsychologists take after completing post-doctoral training? What are the salary ranges for these positions?
positivepsych said:Not to bag on the field of Clinical Neuropsychology, but this seems to be the "hot speciality" that is continually discussed on the forum for no other reason than its salary potential. I don't mean to be judgemental, but in my experience I've seen a lot of people do very well for themselves by picking a focus that they really cared about, which gave them the motivation to succeed. I think this "follow the money first" style of picking a career or a speciality is ultimately detrimental. Rather, I think an honest self-appraisal of strengths/weaknesses, one's passions, what one finds meaningful, and whats a good fit in terms of lifestyle and values is a better way of going about it.
By the way, there was a relevant study done of Singapore Business School students. The students who put "making money" as their #1 goal in post-graduate jobs not only ended up less satisfied witht their jobs, but also made less money in the long run than their counterparts. Just food for thought.
positivepsych said:Not to bag on the field of Clinical Neuropsychology, but this seems to be the "hot speciality" that is continually discussed on the forum for no other reason than its salary potential. I don't mean to be judgemental, but in my experience I've seen a lot of people do very well for themselves by picking a focus that they really cared about, which gave them the motivation to succeed. I think this "follow the money first" style of picking a career or a speciality is ultimately detrimental. Rather, I think an honest self-appraisal of strengths/weaknesses, one's passions, what one finds meaningful, and whats a good fit in terms of lifestyle and values is a better way of going about it.
By the way, there was a relevant study done of Singapore Business School students. The students who put "making money" as their #1 goal in post-graduate jobs not only ended up less satisfied witht their jobs, but also made less money in the long run than their counterparts. Just food for thought.
PsychEval said:I think neuropsych is cutting edge and prestigious. Some of my friends in graduate school chose neuropsych because they hated therapy, others because they loved neuropsych. If I were to follow the money in psych, it seems I/O is the place to be.
PublicHealth said:What, you mean to tell me that clinical psych grad students interested in the brain aren't into psychodynamic therapy!? Blasphemy! 😛
Interestingly, many I/O jobs are open to clinical PhDs. Take look at the APA website classifieds.[/QUOTE
I know, and I like it. With the abundance of masters level people and increased competition, psychologists are becoming remarkably creative and more business savvy.
Neuro-Dr said:There is a practice survey for NP that is published every few years. The last one was done in 2003 and published in the Archives of Clinical Neuropsychology, which is the journal of the National Academy of NP. In the articles, you'll find salary job placement, reimbursment and the like. The average salary continues to go up (about $105,000) and the job market is fairly diverse.
The problem is that the Houston Conference Guideline (www.theabcn.org) has been adopted in part or total from all NP boards (ABCN, ABPN, ABPdN) and is pretty specific about training and coursework. If you are considering NP, be aware that you need doctoral coursework consistent with the Houston or Div 40 guidelines, an APA internship (preferable with >50% NP) and a 2 year fellowship (of which their might be 80 spots per year). You can deviate from these standards but it makes each placement more difficult.
Lots of people are interested in NP, but a little learning is a dangerous thing, so be prepared for serious rigor.
Enjoy!
Neuro-Dr said:The ABCN board has been around since the mid 80's and is part of the ABPP specialties in psychology, it has about 550 members. ABPN has been around since the late 80's and was founded by original members of ABCN who felt that the ABCN board was essentially made up of academics who knew little about clinical practice and thus could not really hold themselves out to the public. It is around 300 members. The ABPdN (peds board), I think started in the mid 90's and was a reaction to the concern that most members of ABCN had little training in peds and that the exam process addressed peds minimally although the pathology and assessment needs are quite different than for adults (e.g. types of tumers, seizure, toxic/metabolic/genetic d/o).
All are self regulated, with the exception of ABCN which, also follows the ABPP policies for general guidelines for board certification. All use the Houston model more or less and it is not unusual for their to be schisms or different bodies, several psych specialties (i.e. Forensics) started as their own board, reached a critical mass and then applied for ABPP recognition.
I think the problem in NP has been that ABCN never lived up to its mission statement. In general all psych boards make up about 14% of their membership. In medicine it would be more like 65-75%. Thus, all boards are elitist status at the moment until they really become the standard of care for the field. My guess is that the peds board will eventually go for ABPP the way clinical and clinical child are set up and ABPN will stay an alternative. The key is that they are recognized by the National Register, have members who pass written, orals, work samples and credential reviews as well as maintain membership and exam logs for the public.
Probably more than you wanted to know...
Jon Snow said:ABCN/ABPP-Cn (same thing) is the "state of the art." ABPN has weaker reqs.
Neuro-Dr said:Disclaimer: my board certification is not from ABCN, so take this as you will
Jon Snow said:Interesting. I do believe we, as a field, need to be aware of our numbers, especially with the presence of certain types of graduate programs.
Jon Snow said:It isn't necessary for practice, but board certification is good for the field as it gives us better control over quality and practice standards.
Jon Snow said:There have been some moves to support APCN through insurance (california). It's useful in forensic applications (bigger dollars).
Jon Snow said:PublicHealth said:I agree. So why is board certification so restrictive in clinical neuropsychology?
I don't think it's all that restrictive.
Thanks, Jon.
So what are your plans following completion of your fellowship?
Jon Snow said:My understanding is that the new codes are a benefit to neuropsychs. We finally have a professional code. The rate is higher than it has ever been? It supports a technician model and provides for non-technician model approaches.
Jon Snow said:I think all states except New York allow technicians. I'm not 100% sure on that. The New York decision was pretty silly and it was also recent. I think there are lobbying efforts to reverse that.
Jon Snow said:I'm fairly certain you can only bill once per eval for computer work. It isn't something you can repetitively bill. Also, I don't think you can simultaneously bill for technician and professional time (not sure, but sounds dubious). A technician model might look something like this.
Professional time: 1 - 2 hours
Tech time: 5 hours
Computer: 1
If you have a large practice, you might be able to simultaneoulsy see 3-5 patients, depending on your resources.
Jon Snow said:I'm fairly certain you can only bill once per eval for computer work. It isn't something you can repetitively bill. Also, I don't think you can simultaneously bill for technician and professional time (not sure, but sounds dubious). A technician model might look something like this.
Professional time: 1 - 2 hours
Tech time: 5 hours
Computer: 1
If you have a large practice, you might be able to simultaneoulsy see 3-5 patients, depending on your resources.
Jon Snow said:Possible? Yes, but unlikely. It takes time to build a practice. It's hard to schedule patients solidly like that. In some academic medical centers, using a technician model, it's not unheard of for a neuropsychologist to see 5 patients a day under the above conditions. It's alot of work to build a practice like that. The medical school route is an easier way, in my opinion, to get big dollars.
Neuro-Dr said:Jon's data is all correct. Where I work we typical schedule 12-15 patients per day for intakes and follow-ups, routniely get about 10 to show up and the psychometricians bill 40-60 hours of testing per week. Each staff NP bills between $350,000 to $450,000 per year. With contract reduction the collections are around 60%, so you can figure collections at $210,000 to $270,000 per year. Depending on your arrangement, most staff NPs who are not salaried will get 50-65% of what is collected, with the rest going to overhead and psychometricians. NAN reports average salaries close to 104K and that is all pretty consistent with my experience. So, if you go to med school to be a GP or pediatrician, you won't make too much more than the average NP. The new codes may reduce this a little for those of us who use techs a lot and particularly for those of us whose techs are all MA level and are paid well.