Clinical Neuropsychology Program vs. General

[neuropsych7]

Hello all!

I'm applying to PhD/PsyD programs for Fall 2014, applications are due 12/1. My ultimate goal is go become a clinical neuropsychologist. I'm applying to:

University of Miami
Vanderbilt
Loyola
University of South Florida
University of Central Florida
University of Louisville
University of Houston
University of San Diego (Joint program)
uMass Boston
Drexel
Xavier
University of Cincinnati
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
DePaul
Boston University
NOVA (if I can get some sort of financial aid--anyone know the likelihood?)

I've been searching schools for ages and I really need to send out a final list to those writing me LoR's. My real question is, if my plan is to complete a 2 year fellowship in neuro after I receive my PhD is it okay that I complete my PhD in general clinical psych? Just under half of these programs have neuro tracks. Any thoughts on my questions, school choices, or anything else is greatly appreciated!

--Also, if you have another program in mind that works w/ neuro please share!

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[quickpsych]

I'm in a small general clinical psych Psy.D. program and one of the full time faculty members is a neuropsychologist. He got his start as a Masters level family therapy clinician, realized he wanted something different, went and got his Psy.D. and concentrated on neuropsych for his internship and fellowships. I picked his brain a bit and in his opinion one is a clinical psychologist first and a neuropsychologist second. That is, you'll have to be trained as a clinical psychologist before becoming a neuropsych anyways and the large marjority of his specific neuropsych training and experience came from his fellowships. He did strongly recommend trying to secure an internship where at least some of the experience involves neuropsych work (or a hospital setting at least) and even trying to get some experience in on practicum with doing as wide a range of testing as possible.


Take this strictly as an opinion. I don't know his entire background and don't know what things will be like in the field 5 years from now.

 

[erg923]

if you want to get a post-doc in npsych, you really have to have an internship that offers substantial npsych experience.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

1. To be ethically trained (IMHO) a students needs to first be trained to be a Clinical Psychologist, and then be trained to be a Nueropsychologist. There are some very good reasons why the APA has yet to acred. any doctoral psychology program that awards a Ph.D./Psy.D. in a specific area of concentration like Neuropsychology or Forensic Psychology. Having too narrow a training is just as bad (or worse) than having too broad a training and trying to work in a speciality area. There are so many day to day things a neuropsychologist will see that involve understanding the PSYCH part before the NEURO part even enters the conversation.

2. A track, concentration, etc. is mostly marketing. The best trained neuropsychologists I know came from solid APA-acred. doctoral programs in clinical/counseling psychology, had good mentorship and training in neuropsych in addition to a solid generalist training, completed an APA-acred. internship, and then went on to complete a recognized 2yr fellowship. <--Doesn't have to be in the match, but 90% of fellowships in NP are in the match or were formerly in the match. There are some rehab psych fellowship programs (e.g. Hopkins, Michigan, etc) I'd put up there with some of the top neuro programs, and also some neuro programs that have excellent rehab training (e.g. Baylor). A track or concentration doesn't mean squat if you don't have good individual mentorship and a solid foundation as a generalist.

3. Having additional training on internship with neuropsych can be helpful to keep your skills up and better prepare you for fellowship, which can be a kick in the teeth bc of the increased workload. I wouldn't say it is absolutely required, but it definitely helped me. At least a few of my fellowship interviews were due to my internship mentor reaching out to colleagues to recommend me. I believe I still had a solid application without that assistance, but it sure as heck didn't hurt my chances.

ps. I agree with JS about UF. It isn't even close, as their program and mentorship are ridiculously good from what I have seen in the field.

pss. You have a number of very competitive programs on your list...with some of the lowest acceptance rates (2%-4%) in the country.

 

[neuropsych7]

These are great replies, thank you! Therapistforchange, I know that they're all extremely competitive, but can you think of any funded programs that aren't as exclusive? I'm not sure if I'm just looking in the wrong spot or what, but they all seem to be similar in that sense. I would love to have a couple of options I felt a little more confident about.

 

[CatsFan]

I believe University of Kentucky has neuropsych training, but they are very competitive as well. Ohio University and Kent State University both have neuropsych, although judging by your other schools, that may not be the area you're looking in.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

At this point, I feel it's becoming more and more necessary to build a decent amount of your neuropsych foundation while in grad school in order to be competitive for the appropriate internships, postdocs, and (ultimately) jobs. That being said, this shouldn't occur at the expense of your clinical psych training. Thus, a neuropsych-specific track isn't required (although some reputable schools, such as UH and UF, have something similar to it), but having the opportunity to work with a neuropsychologist on various externships likely will be.

As CatsFan alluded to, though, one way to help alleviate some of the competitiveness is to look at programs that are in "less-desirable" areas of the country (e.g., away from major cities).

RE: Financial aid at Nova, I don't know the likelihood of getting any financial aid at all, but I'd imagine the chance you'll get enough to make a dent in the tuition is probably pretty small.

 

[WisNeuro]

At this point, I feel it's becoming more and more necessary to build a decent amount of your neuropsych foundation while in grad school in order to be competitive for the appropriate internships, postdocs, and (ultimately) jobs. That being said, this shouldn't occur at the expense of your clinical psych training. Thus, a neuropsych-specific track isn't required (although some reputable schools, such as UH and UF, have something similar to it), but having the opportunity to work with a neuropsychologist on various externships likely will be.
.

Agreed. Also, this is a relatively small community, so your letter writers can be a big influence on what internship and postdoc positions you get. If you can get one of the authors of the Houston guidelines to write you a letter, you're golden. Otherwise, make sure you work with some ABPP people.

 

[Member6523]

University of nevada las vegas is funded and has a neuropsych track. Not as competitive as some of the others.

 

[neuropsych7]

It's not that I'm looking in one specific area, it's just that I grew up in the Kentucky/Indiana/Ohio area and it's just about the only place I'm a little hesitant to move back to, but I would of course still consider going back if there's a good program. I scored a 160 on my GRE quant and a 161 on verbal, but just a 4 on AW. I'm still waiting on my scores for my Psych subject test (took it last Saturday), and I have a 4.0 psych GPA and a 3.97 overall. I had been doing research in a memory and cognition lab for 1.5 years, 1 of which I was completing an honors thesis. I know that I've been a good student and my scores are right around the average that all of the programs list, but naturally I'm oscillating between thinking I'll get in to these competitive programs to thinking I won't. What should I look into for a few fallback options?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

What should I look into for a few fallback options?

there are a lot of good programs out there that are newer or in less desirable locations. Your best bet is to look through the full list of APA accredited programs, cut any that don't provide full funding, and find places that have less applicants. As far as NP, its hard to tell which programs may have good practicum in NP just from the website. However, those that have a Health track are more likely.

Also, didn't someone just mention that Nova provides funding for the PhD track (basically the PsyDs hoards are paying for the PhDs)?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

there are a lot of good programs out there that are newer or in less desirable locations. Your best bet is to look through the full list of APA accredited programs, cut any that don't provide full funding, and find places that have less applicants. As far as NP, its hard to tell which programs may have good practicum in NP just from the website. However, those that have a Health track are more likely.

Also, didn't someone just mention that Nova provides funding for the PhD track (basically the PsyDs hoards are paying for the PhDs)?

Yeah, I think that was mentioned in another thread. I'd still personally be wary just based on the overall class sizes (PsyD + PhD combined), but I don't know that I've heard many knocks against the program itself...unless things have changed in recent years. If full funding is a available, it's definitely an option.

 

[neuropsych7]

I did see someone mention that about NOVA in the other thread. I'll see if I can get any information from their website, we'll see.

 

[neuro221]

I know that Nova offered someone 4 years paid tuition for a PhD student (a neuro track student). They made it sound like this was the first year they were offering this, and it was not necessarily an offer made to all PhD students. However, these programs are 5 years minimum and they offered no stipend, so those are important factors to keep in mind.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Nova should only be a consideration if there is full funding (historically their funding has been poor), as it is very costly to live down in S. FL and having to pay tuition on top of that can get ridiculous. You should also have a very good research match and mentorship lined up, as there are a lot of students competing over faculty time and resources. Their speciality training (neuro, forensic, health) is a strength of the program, BUT.... there can be a lot of variance in training outside of the top mentor(s) in each area. I'd probably advise to look elsewhere bc the funding just isn't there (at least for the past decade or so).

 

[fresnel]

I agree with Therapist4change. I would add that if you plan to work with a neuropsychologist, make sure he/she has been clinically trained and that the credentials are legitimate. A neuropsychologist in a program I know had no formal clinical training at all. He did an informal sabbatical testing for a colleague so he learned to administer tests. The phrase "accredited clinical program" showed up on his Vita next to where he lists where he got his degree. Yes the university in graduated from has such a program; But no, he was not in it. Over the years he has been able to gain experience because people are unaware of his lack of formal clinical training. I suppose if you pose as a surgeon long enough you may get pretty good at is. Never-the-less, if you are accepted into a program, it may be a good idea to evaluate the training of the person you would work most closely with. I am sure that the situation with this particular professor is not unique. On the other hand, there are plenty of well trained, excellent neuropsychologists in strong programs. it is worth taking the trouble to research prospective programs very carefully in order to find a mentor who is legitimately a clinical psychologist.

 

[WisNeuro]

Make sure your letter writers/supervisors are ABPP-CN, that goes a long ways.