Clinical Research during first year

[Hemichordate]

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I've heard that bench research can often get in the way of studies during the first year, and given the large amount of time a person usually needs to spend in the lab, many choose to save it for the summer. However, I've heard that clinical research is a better alternative, and that many people who do it have more freedom of when they want to work on the project.

So I'm wondering, how frequently do M1s do some kind of clinical research during their first year, and how well did these projects fit in with their med school lifestyle?

 

[Daedra22]

I really think that any research, clinical or otherwise, is better reserved for summer between years 1 and 2 and maybe during year 2 (I hear there's a little more flexibility for most people - being a first year, I couldn't say). First year is a lot of trial and error in an effort to cope with the new environment. I can't imagine doing research during first year at all... now that I'm towards the end, I could see possibly taking up a project in my few spare hours during the week. I don't know anyone in my class who has done research at this point.

Perhaps others feel differently, but just based on my experiences, I say focus on learning to be a medical student during 1st year. You'll have more than enough to keep you occupied.

 

[Lil Mick]

Our class mainly had MD/PhD students doing research (clinical or basic) during MS1/MS2. It's doable with the workload at my school, but very few people in our class are involved in research and a few other extracurriculars (if you're doing clubs or service work...). I'd suggest finding a PI who understands that you're a med student and will need to study/do clinicals... It makes it much less stressful if you do research during the school year.

 

[pandoraone]

Bump....other thoughts?

 

[Perrotfish]

I've heard that bench research can often get in the way of studies during the first year, and given the large amount of time a person usually needs to spend in the lab, many choose to save it for the summer. However, I've heard that clinical research is a better alternative, and that many people who do it have more freedom of when they want to work on the project.

So I'm wondering, how frequently do M1s do some kind of clinical research during their first year, and how well did these projects fit in with their med school lifestyle?

A good retrospective case review series can be very doable. A small scale project can be an investment of maybe 200 hours, which spaced over a year shouldn't kill your studies. I think its better to start during first year (if you can find a good advisor) than to wait for summer. My experience with clinical research is that its manageable amounts of work seperated by long periods of waiting. Write an IRB... wait a month for your advisor to review it. Apply her edits and submit... wait two months for the IRB to approve the project. Mine the data... wait three months for the statician to analyze it. Then three drafts of the paper (wait a month for you advisor to go over each series of edits) and a mere six months waiting for a journal to review the submission and your edits and you're done! So less than a month of full time work, but painfully spaced over no less than a year a probably two.

Just don't get roped into being the scut monkey on a giant clinical research project. If they want you to hand out survery along with ten other medical students, or if they want you to review thousands of charts rather than dozens/hundreds, then that can be as bad as bench research. If you can, find an advisor who will give you a small project you can work on without any other students or residents involved.

 

[californiahope]

Kind of piggy backing here but just wondering, I'm finishing up M2 right now and was wondering if its too late to get into research? Granted the next few months are dedicated to step 1 studying so I'll actually be an M3 by the time I actually get started. If its not too late, what's the best way to go about attaining a project. My school isn't all that involved in research so I'm in the dark.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Jervix]

Research during third year is doable with proper time management. I recommend sending an email to your department of interest requesting to join a project. Often they'll point you to prolific research professors who could use a hand.

Not all rotations are time monopolizers. If you can consistently add 5 hours of research a week it pays dividends.

 

[evilbooyaa]

M3 is the easiest time to get involved in clinical research, because you'll be in the hospital with your PI and supervisors anyways.

If you're an M1 and interested in clinical research, be prepared to spend some time in your school's hospital (may not be an issue depending on proximity) as you will likely be going through patients charts (either electronically or on paper), things that I have not seen hospitals let a med student do from outside the hospital.

 

[Hemichordate]

Lol I asked this question before med school started. Now I've been involved in clinical research for almost a year.

Anyway, the most important thing is time management. No matter what, put your studies first and research second. I'm not sure you'll have much time as an M3 though, since you'll be so busy prepping for your rotations.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

M3 is the easiest time to get involved in clinical research, because you'll be in the hospital with your PI and supervisors anyways.

If you're an M1 and interested in clinical research, be prepared to spend some time in your school's hospital (may not be an issue depending on proximity) as you will likely be going through patients charts (either electronically or on paper), things that I have not seen hospitals let a med student do from outside the hospital.

One of our two main teaching hospitals allows students to access the EMR from anywhere, so you might luck out and be able to do a chart review from home. In your underwear.

 

[Jonnygraysen]

At my school we all had the option to do research after our first year and about half of us actually did. The majority of those students did clinical research. I feel clinical research fits medical school better because we are learning to be doctors who interact with people on a daily basis. As far as bench research, it is useful and I am glad there are people who are interested in it.

 

[survivordo]

As mentioned above it is all about time management. The earlier you can start doing some research the better as you will have a better chance of getting your name on a few publications (it's a long process to get these things out!). Most departments are always looking for a med student to help them with data collection etc, it is totally doable during medical school.

Survivor DO

 

[pandoraone]

As mentioned above it is all about time management. The earlier you can start doing some research the better as you will have a better chance of getting your name on a few publications (it's a long process to get these things out!). Most departments are always looking for a med student to help them with data collection etc, it is totally doable during medical school.

Survivor DO

Do many students actually take advantage of this and get multiple papers before residency? I'm guessing they aren't first-author papers

 

[GadRads]

I have been working as a volunteer on translational/clinical research work as an M1. I have submitted a first-author abstract to a meeting and I'm a co-author on 2 others. I am also working on a first-author paper now. With more diligence I can get 2 to 3 first-author papers out before I start studying for boards next year. I really want to focus on 3rd year and not worry too much about research since grades from those years are far more meaningful than preclinical grades.

My grades have obviously taken a small hit, mostly in terms of silly details but I understand the material/concepts very well, although some others are definitely better at identifying trivia in lab practicals or random details such as the fact that the long buccal nerve runs underneath the temporalis tendon. I get in about 4 hrs of good studying on average.

Also, as someone who did a basic science PhD, I would generally recommend avoiding it like a plague in medical school if you want to publish anything. It takes too much time. I was spending an average of 8-10 hrs working and thinking about my thesis over 5 years. My first paper from this effort is only just nearing completion.

 

[GadRads]

I was reading a post about a resident here who had >10 papers in medical school and scored 260-ish on Step I. He matched into one of the competitive fields. So it's very possible to do research as a med student.

 

[Hemichordate]

I was reading a post about a resident here who had >10 papers in medical school and scored 260-ish on Step I. He matched into one of the competitive fields. So it's very possible to do research as a med student.

Hell I read about a resident here who had 30+ pubs

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12048940&postcount=8

 

[fluoropHore]

How does someone manage multiple pubs (or a few first auths) in school? It seems to be during the bulk of M1-M2? or M3-4? I was lucky to crank out ~1 pub every 2yrs (bench work though). Can someone give me a specific example of what counts as a pub in med school since I am unfamiliar? It sounds like for most students, all research leads to a paper otherwise, they probably wouldn't be interested in investing what little time/effort they can give.

I guess TLr: it seems doing research in med school as opposed to undergrad must be high yielding and I guess, I just dont know how this happens in their favor when research itself can be unpredictable.

 

[bkprodigy]

It all depends on your PI. I've worked with a neurosurgeon who never returned my email. On the other hand, the current PI that I am working with is very inclined to let students publish. There's an M2 in my group who is currently on his 10th primary. He must have more than 20 pubs including secondaries. Most of the research is retrospective, dealing with large clinical databases or metaanalysis. Typical turnaround time for a pub is about 2 - 3 months for this particular group.

If you're willing to put in time and find a good PI, then having 10+ pubs by 2nd year is definitely possible.

 

[fluoropHore]

It all depends on your PI. I've worked with a neurosurgeon who never returned my email. On the other hand, the current PI that I am working with is very inclined to let students publish. There's an M2 in my group who is currently on his 10th primary. He must have more than 20 pubs including secondaries. Most of the research is retrospective, dealing with large clinical databases or metaanalysis. Typical turnaround time for a pub is about 2 - 3 months for this particular group.

If you're willing to put in time and find a good PI, then having 10+ pubs by 2nd year is definitely possible.

Ok, follow up question. Are these 20+ pubs of "lesser" quality than a different type of pub? In other words, is it quality over quantity or other way around? Are these multiple pubs of equal value than say 2-3 original investigations? If you can rack up stuff every 2-3 months, then are medical CVs grossly inflated compared to PhD's CV? Ugh, I don't mean to imply these findings aren't valuable, I'm just so unfamiliar with this kind of research and I'm a confused noob.

 

[bkprodigy]

Ok, follow up question. Are these 20+ pubs of "lesser" quality than a different type of pub? In other words, is it quality over quantity or other way around? Are these multiple pubs of equal value than say 2-3 original investigations? If you can rack up stuff every 2-3 months, then are medical CVs grossly inflated compared to PhD's CV? Ugh, I don't mean to imply these findings aren't valuable, I'm just so unfamiliar with this kind of research and I'm a confused noob.

By original investigation, I assume you mean basic science research. I don't think clinical research pubs are of lesser quality than basic science. Basic science usually requires a lot of bench time to produce results, whereas in retrospective studies, data is already there and you just have to do outcomes analysis. Some of the randomized controlled studies take just as much time. So I guess it narrows down to what you are interested in, but in the productivity standpoint, retrospective study is the way to go.
As an example, I once did a year-long animal study and wrote a manuscript. Sure it could be argued that this pub is of higher "quality" than a typical retrospective paper. However, does it outweigh 4 clinical papers? It is upto the program director to decide.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Ok, follow up question. Are these 20+ pubs of "lesser" quality than a different type of pub? In other words, is it quality over quantity or other way around? Are these multiple pubs of equal value than say 2-3 original investigations? If you can rack up stuff every 2-3 months, then are medical CVs grossly inflated compared to PhD's CV? Ugh, I don't mean to imply these findings aren't valuable, I'm just so unfamiliar with this kind of research and I'm a confused noob.

Depends on the field. Only field I know where true basic lab research is valued more than clinical research is RadOnc. I am unsure of the role in other fields. I think at the end of the day, you should be able to talk about all of your research publications.

I think the people posting on SDN with multiple pubs during their M1 year are in the extreme minority.

 

[TacklinFuel]

I know this is a bit off topic, but could you elaborate about the rad onc thing? I'm very interested in this field, but much more interested in clinical trials than I am bench research. Any info would be great.

Thanks!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using SDN Mobile

 

[Etorphine]

It all depends on your PI. I've worked with a neurosurgeon who never returned my email. On the other hand, the current PI that I am working with is very inclined to let students publish. There's an M2 in my group who is currently on his 10th primary. He must have more than 20 pubs including secondaries. Most of the research is retrospective, dealing with large clinical databases or metaanalysis. Typical turnaround time for a pub is about 2 - 3 months for this particular group.

If you're willing to put in time and find a good PI, then having 10+ pubs by 2nd year is definitely possible.

Yes, but that time that he put into those studies is now time away from step 1. So it probably is not to his benefit, because having a 220 Step 1 and 10+ pubs still isn't that good when push comes to shove.

Taking it from someone who knows, clinical research in the year can get ugly.

 

[bkprodigy]

Yes, but that time that he put into those studies is now time away from step 1. So it probably is not to his benefit, because having a 220 Step 1 and 10+ pubs still isn't that good when push comes to shove.

Taking it from someone who knows, clinical research in the year can get ugly.

Agree with what you're saying. That's why we start early in the first year to get things rolling. By 2nd yr, they're so efficient that they only need to spend 5hrs/wk to maintain the productivity.

My first analysis took me 1 1/2months to get used to biostats, stats program, etc. Now I can get it done in two days.

 

[Daodejing]

Sorry for the presumably noob question, but I've noticed that many med school faculty profiles (on school webpages) have pubs every 1-2 years (or a few in a given year), which is fine. But I assume that many of these faculty work with students putting out case reports, chart reviews, book chapters, etc. Are these clinical research pubs usually not included for any specific reason? I'm guessing it's because they hardly matter/add any credential to the faculty doc but wanting to hear if any of you can confirm or have any more knowledge on this. Thanks.

 

[Bluesclera]

I think that any project basic or clinical is possible based on how well you can balance the research commitment with your ultimate commitment to your studies. If you and your mentor are on the same page with expectations for the year then I think it usually works out nicely.

I had the opportunity to work on a clinical project that had a once a month commitment for screening days. It worked great in terms of time as it was about 5 hrs max one saturday a month.

 

[pandoraone]

Yes, but that time that he put into those studies is now time away from step 1. So it probably is not to his benefit, because having a 220 Step 1 and 10+ pubs still isn't that good when push comes to shove.

Taking it from someone who knows, clinical research in the year can get ugly.

How does it get ugly!

 

[prado]

How are we supposed to find a good PI? Do we wait until we start working with them and look for things in particular? If we've already started working with them and come to find out we're involved in nothing but scut, how would we go about respectfully leaving the lab while not burning any bridges? It kind of seems that some of this relies on luck. Any further explanation would help a lot. Thanks 👍

 

[tiedyeddog]

Do many students actually take advantage of this and get multiple papers before residency? I'm guessing they aren't first-author papers

I am finishing up M2 now.

I have a first author clinical review, a second author basic science, first author basic science, and a very low authorship on another basic science paper. I hope to do a case report or get involved with a clinical project in third year.

It's all about time management and pure luck. Work your ass off, it will be worth it later.

Also, any clinical research work is going to be easier than basic science. Do whatever interests you the most. I find chart reviews boring as hell myself.

 

[pandoraone]

I am finishing up M2 now.

I have a first author clinical review, a second author basic science, first author basic science, and a very low authorship on another basic science paper. I hope to do a case report or get involved with a clinical project in third year.

It's all about time management and pure luck. Work your ass off, it will be worth it later.

Also, any clinical research work is going to be easier than basic science. Do whatever interests you the most. I find chart reviews boring as hell myself.

Super impressive - congratz! Could you tell us (or pm) a bit more about your research (what type of basic sci) and how much time did you put in weekly/ect? Did you have free time?

 

[addy]

Super impressive - congratz! Could you tell us (or pm) a bit more about your research (what type of basic sci) and how much time did you put in weekly/ect? Did you have free time?

I too would like to know the answer to this!

 

[Daodejing]

I am finishing up M2 now.

I have a first author clinical review, a second author basic science, first author basic science, and a very low authorship on another basic science paper. I hope to do a case report or get involved with a clinical project in third year.

It's all about time management and pure luck. Work your ass off, it will be worth it later.

Also, any clinical research work is going to be easier than basic science. Do whatever interests you the most. I find chart reviews boring as hell myself.

Awesome work. If I may ask, are you working in multiple labs? If so, are your PI's supportive? What field(s) are your pubs in? Congrats on the success and best of luck on boards!

 

[tiedyeddog]

Super impressive - congratz! Could you tell us (or pm) a bit more about your research (what type of basic sci) and how much time did you put in weekly/ect? Did you have free time?

I too would like to know the answer to this!

Awesome work. If I may ask, are you working in multiple labs? If so, are your PI's supportive? What field(s) are your pubs in? Congrats on the success and best of luck on boards!

It's all in neuroscience. I came into medical school with a ton of research experience (but no pubs) so I was able to jump into projects. I did a lot of mouse work, lots of PCR and qtPCR, tons of IHC work.

I put into about 10-20 hours a week as an M1, maybe 5-10 hours a week as an M2, worked my ass off during the summer. My grades were better than average as an M1 but lower than average as an M2 (I just hate medical school classes at this point....). I usually have free time to play intramural sports once or twice a week, sometimes not. Usually study maybe 6 hours a day on average, much more week of a test.

When you guys look for labs try to ask people who are year ahead of you what they did. Find a lab that has a good track record publishing with medical students. And as I said, work hard, be persistent, and get lucky.

I worked in only one lab.

 

[Hemichordate]

The thing I'm wondering about is how well do you have to know the research on projects where you have minimal involvement, but still get your name on the paper? There are a couple that I've worked on where I've only done some of the data collection, but haven't been involved at all with the rest of the project. Am I still expected to be an expert on that research during residency interviews?

 

[bkprodigy]

The thing I'm wondering about is how well do you have to know the research on projects where you have minimal involvement, but still get your name on the paper? There are a couple that I've worked on where I've only done some of the data collection, but haven't been involved at all with the rest of the project. Am I still expected to be an expert on that research during residency interviews?

By the placement of the authorship, they should know you weren't involved as much.

 

[bkprodigy]

How are we supposed to find a good PI? Do we wait until we start working with them and look for things in particular? If we've already started working with them and come to find out we're involved in nothing but scut, how would we go about respectfully leaving the lab while not burning any bridges? It kind of seems that some of this relies on luck. Any further explanation would help a lot. Thanks 👍

You can't really distinguish bad PIs from good ones until you start working for them. If they have you do scut work as most PIs out there do, then get your ass out of there ASAP.

You have to work your ass off to be productive, but the connections your PI provides is even more important. Make sure the PI gives you independent projects and lets you write the manuscript. If the PI hooks you up with an attending in the relevant field (i.e. ortho attending if you're working on an ortho project), then it's even better.

It takes a lot of luck to find an ideal reserach group, but if you look, you should be able to find one. I'm glad I waited to get into my group. I just submitted my first primary, and it took me 3 months working 5-10hrs/week.