Clinical Rotations 3rd and 4th years

[Ilikescience]

Just spoke with my Aunt, whom is an MD. She is was not enthusiastic about osteopathic school, which I knew anyway and still has not lead me astray from getting a DO degree. However, she did mention one thing that concerned me. DO schools do not have a teaching hospital attached to the school, meaning the quality of education during clinical years is not controlled. Medical schools have no control over the quality of education when they send you off to rotations as opposed to if their faculty were running the education in the hospital. This is something to consider when deciding on a medical school especially if the school sends you off to far away rotations. Has anyone come across a situation during rotations where they felt the education was sub-par? And if so, was there a way to make-up for the lack in training? I'm sure she is just being biased and MD schools have the same problem in their programs, but I'm just wondering what a medical student could do in this situation to not compromise their education.

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[Shinken]

I'm sure she is just being biased and MD schools have the same problem in their programs...

Yup.

Now, speaking from my experience only (student at OU-COM, rotating in Cleveland), my educational experience hasn't suffered one bit. The program has a strong administrative presence. It's not like they tell you "hey, there's a hospital and they told us they don't mind if you hang out there. Go!" There's actually a department of medical education with OU-COM employees that help you and monitor you (including an associate Dean. There's one at every member hospital).

There are students from allopathic schools that rotate at our site as well, and they're also far from their school. Will your aunt think their education is suffering too?

I'm sure there are schools out there (MD and DO) that send their students to hospitals with little oversight, but the vast majority will take proud ownership of their students and their education. And no, not every allopathic school out there is attached to an affiliated hospital.

Perhaps if you told us which schools you're considering, current students can give you more specific info?

 

[Old_Mil]

Just spoke with my Aunt, whom is an MD. She is was not enthusiastic about osteopathic school, which I knew anyway and still has not lead me astray from getting a DO degree. However, she did mention one thing that concerned me. DO schools do not have a teaching hospital attached to the school, meaning the quality of education during clinical years is not controlled. Medical schools have no control over the quality of education when they send you off to rotations as opposed to if their faculty were running the education in the hospital. This is something to consider when deciding on a medical school especially if the school sends you off to far away rotations. Has anyone come across a situation during rotations where they felt the education was sub-par? And if so, was there a way to make-up for the lack in training?

This is a valid concern...if you do end up going DO, just don't go to any old DO school. Take some time to look into the differences between them and see what is the best fit. In my opinion, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, and Midwestern/Chicago probably lead the pack. The recent approval of for-profit DO schools like Rocky Vista is another red flag which may end up devaluing the DO degree in time.

Another thing to consider if you're not interested in PMN&R as a specialty: your first two years in DO school, you invest (waste?) a lot of time learning OMM, which does detract from the # of hours you can spend learning modern, evidenced based pathophysiology.

In general, having gone the other route, if you do get in to an MD school, you shouldn't consider going DO unless there are family/other factors that restrict you geographically.

 

[DrWBD]

Your aunt has a valid concern, but as others have pointed out, the clinical affiliations of osteopathic medical schools can vary widely in quality (as they can for MD programs as well). My medical school had very good hospitals for clerkship training when I attended - we rotated with students from SUNY Downstate, SUNY Stony Brook, and NYU in many of the hospitals. Do your homework when applying and find out specifically the affiliated hospitals the schools you're interested in sends their students.

 

[Ilikescience]

Perhaps if you told us which schools you're considering, current students can give you more specific info?

I'm considering CCOM, PCOM, Western U and Nova...can anyone give me specifics about rotations for these particular schools?

 

[IrishGuy]

You premeds and med students get so concerned about this DO MD stuff it is funny now that I am a resident being taught by DOs and working alongside DOs. Most of your REAL training is during residency. Study hard, do well on your boards, get good grades, and LORs. Getting a STRONG residency program IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. Yes, medical school training helps, but if you don't have a choice why worry about it. Do your research if you get into a DO school, and make sure you choose the one with the best clinical teaching. Don't worry so much about the first two year. You can teach yourself so to speak and make up for deficiencies.
That being said, I would personally choose an MD school first, DO school next, and lastly a decent Caribbean school like St. George's (maybe a med school in a foreign country that is good if you can work that out). If you go the Caribbean route remember you will still be an FMG technically.
This is not to put down DO schools. If you PREFER DO training then go there . If you like OMM and wholistic care, etc. do DO. The gap is narrowing between MD and DO. There are still some people that have their problems, but you probably don't want to go there anyway if you are a DO. If you don't have a choice, don't worry about it, do your best, and you too will be a physician. It doesn't matter if you are an MD or DO.

 

[rajaholick]

DO schools do not have a teaching hospital attached to the school,

many MD schools do not have a teaching hospital attached either

 

[Inquiringmind24]

All I can tell you is that in med school quality of clinical rotations are by far the most important thing. The basic science years in my opinion are pretty much self study and all that really matters is that you read 1st aid a bunch, do lots of Kaplan Q bank, USMLE world questions, and know goljan's high yields to do well on Step 1. Whether you go to Harvard or a school in the carribean it's all the same material. But where you rotate makes all the difference. At Harvard you get to rotate at hospitals like Mass General and Brigham and Women's, whereas some DO schools (AZCOM is an example) or carribean schools you are not guaranteed quality rotations. If you do go to a school like AZCOM where good rotations are NOT guaranteed, make sure you are proactive to set up most rotations at teaching hospitals that have residency programs. Especially surgery, OB/GYN, and Internal med. While hours and life style are horrible, the learning is far better. Thus far as a 3rd year at AZCOM I've done my first four rotations at teaching hospitals and learned a ton. But I had to set up two of them. So at a DO school without an affiliated teaching hospital you have to be proactive to get the best clinical education possible. And the other post was dead on, residency is really what matters. Get into the best residency possible and it doesn't matter where you went to medical school.....period.

Another thing, if you do get into a DO and an MD school, go to whichever school is cheaper and has affiliated teaching hospitals. I would choose Michigan State COM or Oklahoma State COM over many MD schools based on price and quality of clinical education. If I was a pre-med again that's what I would do. Good luck and do your research!

 

[DrQuinn]

In my opinion, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, and Midwestern/Chicago probably lead the pack.

*Sigh* Atleast you put "IMO" beforehand, but making statements like that to premeds only reinforces early prejudices against other schools.

To the OP:

I am 15 months out of residency training (i.e. faculy attending) at a prestigious MD institution. I am a DO.

Your family member's concern is a superficially valid one, however, in my experience, it was quite the opposite. True, my school didn't specifically have one giant teaching hospital (like a lot of MD schools have). We had like 10. I went to a smaller hospital for my 3rd year rotations, which, honestly, was great. It was ME and the ATTENDING. No one else. This lead to a lot of great one on one interaction and teaching. On my surgery rotations, it was ME AND THE ATTENDING. I was ALWAYS first assistant in the OR. I didn't do "scut work" that a resident would do. My attneidng and I would do it together.

That kind of education is unheard of in an MD institution.

Q

 

[Terpskins99]

This is a valid concern...if you do end up going DO, just don't go to any old DO school. Take some time to look into the differences between them and see what is the best fit. In my opinion, Oklahoma State, Michigan State, and Midwestern/Chicago probably lead the pack.

Wow, now there's a completely random list of medical schools. I suppose if you're happy staying in the midwest, those are nice enough programs... but yeah... random. In terms of overall prestige, I can see CCOM... but OSU/MSU? Ahead of NYCOM and PCOM? Eh, to each his own I guess.

Anyhow, to the OP... go wherever you feel most comfortable. No medical school is guaranteed to provide you with future success. That part is totally up to your ability to work hard.

 

[Amy B]

VCOM students rotate with UVA students. I never once felt inferior or lacking when rotating with them. You have to just work hard no matter where you are and quit worrying about what people think. DO and MDs work side by side and this garbage about them not being as good is just BS.

just my .02

 

[medicine1]

Honestly, you get what you put into the rotation. If you work hard, study hard, and ask lots of questions and actively learn, then you will do fine. I attend a DO school, and I have rotated in military and civilian hospitals, and I do not feel like my clinical education has suffered. Be intrepid my friend!

 

[AwesomO]

Your aunt has a valid concern. Clinical training at osteopathic schools vary. At my school there are excellent clinical training sites and and at the same time horrendous ones. I really lucked out and got one of the good ones, about 1/3-1/2 of my class got the shafted for 3rd year rotations.
Most likely you are going to wind up paying 38K (if not more) a year in tuition. You don't want to pay that to just have a screw off year for clinical rotations. If I'm paying 38K for a year of education it better a damn good one.

 

[photon]

Your family member's concern is a superficially valid one, however, in my experience, it was quite the opposite. True, my school didn't specifically have one giant teaching hospital (like a lot of MD schools have). We had like 10. I went to a smaller hospital for my 3rd year rotations, which, honestly, was great. It was ME and the ATTENDING. No one else. This lead to a lot of great one on one interaction and teaching. On my surgery rotations, it was ME AND THE ATTENDING. I was ALWAYS first assistant in the OR. I didn't do "scut work" that a resident would do. My attneidng and I would do it together.

That kind of education is unheard of in an MD institution.

Q

I have to agree with Dr. Quinn on this one. While I am sure that the clinical education varies between the osteopathic schools, I am very pleased with and proud of the education I have received. (However, I am not sure if it is more of a product of my school or a product of being a DO student.) I am a OMS4 and have rotated through three different well known MD hospitals. I have been astounded by the differences in clinical capability of my MD counterparts. On most rotations at my base hospital, I act as a "sub-i". On surgery, I always scrubbed in. I have even been first assist on Spine surgery. Apparently, this is not how it works in the MD world. Just something to think about.

 

[JayneCobb]

I'm considering CCOM, PCOM, Western U and Nova...can anyone give me specifics about rotations for these particular schools?

I think several of these were covered in a thread, let me see if I can find it. eta: Guess not

random. In terms of overall prestige, I can see CCOM... but OSU/MSU? Ahead of NYCOM and PCOM? Eh, to each his own I guess.

Ever rotate with someone from OSU? Keep in mind that OSU is isolated from many of the other schools and they have Goljan and damn good clinical rotations. I've rotated and had a bunch of students from various schools. So far CCOM, PCOM, OSUCOM and OUCOM have the most consistantly good students out of the schools I've seen represented. LECOM-erie has some damn good students which seem to come out of the PBL program. DMU-COM my experience is limited but I've had 2 great and 2 so-so students rotate under me. I've not had too many NYCOM students, but I've heard the nasty rumor that they had some board passing issues a year or two back.

As far as most consistent rotations, I'd list MSU-com, OSU-COM, PCOM up there as it seems the students have a little more consistent exposure to the same group of core teaching staff.

But as DrQ already brought up, there are some perks to our educations, rarely was I 2nd to anyone and I've learned a ton and clinically was well on par to my allo counterparts that I've rotated with. On the same token, students I've meet and classmates I have from VCOM are extremely competent and they tell me that they were really thrown into the mix early on even before I was at OSU-COM.

 

[kelaskov]

I'm a UNECOM student and rotating at a hospital with Columbia, Rochester and Albany students. I feel we are equally well trained and receive the same respect and amount of teaching from the attendings and staff. Will having a name like Columbia instead of UNECOM help you get better residencies? Yes, depending on what you go into, but that is only one small piece of the puzzle and it is up to you to do the rest. Excel in classes, on rotations and the boards. Get to know key attendings well and get great LORs and you'll be very competitive no matter where you go to school. Definitely look into where students rotate for 3rd year when deciding where to apply, it makes a huge difference in your education. Remember you are paying a lot of money for 3rd and 4th years and you should make the most of it.

 

[Concubine]

I will be attending OUCOM starting this fall and I have to admit I am a bit concerned about the stories I hear of some DO students (not necessarily from OUCOM) living out of their cars for rotations. I have a wife and kid, so I'm hoping to try and minimize moving around as I will be dragging them around with me. Does anyone know anything about OUCOM concerning this?

 

[WoahMedicine]

Wow, now there's a completely random list of medical schools. I suppose if you're happy staying in the midwest, those are nice enough programs... but yeah... random. In terms of overall prestige, I can see CCOM... but OSU/MSU? Ahead of NYCOM and PCOM? Eh, to each his own I guess.

Anyhow, to the OP... go wherever you feel most comfortable. No medical school is guaranteed to provide you with future success. That part is totally up to your ability to work hard.

Who goes Osteopathic for prestige?? Give me a break.

 

[fireflygirl]

many MD schools do not have a teaching hospital attached either

If I'm correct, the Drexel med students don't technically rotate through Hahnemann but also have a number of clinical sites to rotate through. My friend who is an MS3 there has never spent any of her rotations in Philly - she was sent to so many clinical sites outside of the Philly area.

 

[RockfordWF]

Just spoke with my Aunt, whom is an MD. She is was not enthusiastic about osteopathic school, which I knew anyway and still has not lead me astray from getting a DO degree. However, she did mention one thing that concerned me. DO schools do not have a teaching hospital attached to the school, meaning the quality of education during clinical years is not controlled. Medical schools have no control over the quality of education when they send you off to rotations as opposed to if their faculty were running the education in the hospital. This is something to consider when deciding on a medical school especially if the school sends you off to far away rotations. Has anyone come across a situation during rotations where they felt the education was sub-par? And if so, was there a way to make-up for the lack in training? I'm sure she is just being biased and MD schools have the same problem in their programs, but I'm just wondering what a medical student could do in this situation to not compromise their education.

This is blatant misinformation.

There are DO schools that have teaching hospitals attached to the school with many residencies available.

My school is one of them, but I chose to do most of my rotations at other locations where I could work one-on-one with an attending.

 

[travoltage]

CCOM has St. James Hospitals as their main site

St. James network has 2 400(estimate) bed hospitals..on top of that St. James is a core osteopathic hospital, i hope im not to bold to say that this is kind of the base hospital for ccom. but there are so many hospitals in chicago that students from ccom and MD programs rotate through tons of the same hospitals