Ah. I see. I take back 'they aren't so much associated with counter-culture outside the US' and replace it with 'they aren't so much associated with counter-culture in Australasia'. Sure counter-culture people wear them... But they probably wear pants, too, but wearing pants similarly isn't associated with counter-culture movement. I just meant to say that I've seen a number of non neo nazi / alternative / counterculture types (appreciating they are quite different things) wear them and I personally think that some of their more modern styles can look quite dressy. They have a wearing in period, to be sure, but really comfortable for me once worn in. Nice wide toes (have old leg injuries) and no arch support (which is wonderful for me). Probably a throw back since high school. Had a pair of docs ever since I was 16 and can't quite bear to part with them (and no I wasn't a neo-nazi) 🙂