CMO

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SeekerOfTheTree

SeekerOfTheTree

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Anyone ever thought about being the hospital/insurance CMO? Anyone done it? What are your thoughts?
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SeekerOfTheTree said:
Anyone ever thought about being the hospital/insurance CMO? Anyone done it? What are your thoughts?
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MBA makes you a better candidate for CMO at medium/larger hospitals. I personally hate admin positions and can't stand the thought of functioning at high level CMG admin and/or hospital admin. Too much butt kissing, schmoozing, politics, and perfecting the transparency, honesty, "I've got your back" team card while simultaneously demonstrating to your superiors how you can effectively wrangle, control, manipulate and subdue your docs while aligning the goals of the CMG with the hospital and tweaking processes to maximize revenue in the guise of "pt safety, 'provider' wellness, yada yada". What an absolute headache.

In my experience CMO jobs seem to rotate every 2-3 years. If you find an area that you genuinely like...with family and friends nearby, better to be an invisible worker bee. Talk about putting your head on a chopping block for any new CEO that takes over the hospital. That's also a full time gig. I would think it would be difficult if not impossible to reliably keep your skills up to date while simultaneously working in the ED and carrying out your CMO responsibilities.
 
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Groove said:
That's also a full time gig. I would think it would be difficult if not impossible to reliably keep your skills up to date while simultaneously working in the ED and carrying out your CMO responsibilities.
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I have to imagine most people who become CMO are looking to jump to another C-suite position and have no interest in going back to clinical medicine.
 
I know someone who used to be an insurance CMO in another state. He absolutely hated it. It was developing protocols that docs couldn't follow very well just to reduce reimbursement. He said he felt like he had sold his soul to Satan.

You really should have an MBA for these type of positions. Not absolutely necessary, but it'll give you an advantage. The person I know also had a DPH in addition to an MBA.
 
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At most medium to large hospitals, they'll want an MBA or at least quite a bit of other education or 'leadership' classes. In my experience, CMOs pretty quickly transition from being on the clinical side of things to being on the administrator side of things.
 
Never have I ever... although the next time I'm disimpacting I'll try to channel my inner "house of cards"/ CMO
 
I’ll start by saying that I don’t begrudge any physician their general hatred of hospital administration. They’ve certainly earned it.

BUT…

Someone has to do that job (or something like it), and if nobody ”here” wants to stand up to do it, you’re going to wind up with the brown-nosing bootlickers we’re all used to.

Yes, if only one of us does it, nothing will change, but if a lot of us do, there’s a chance to make things better.

My hospital system CEO just left and a group of 5 hospital level physician leaders (think Dept Chair and Med Staff president level) submitted a group application to take over that position. We have been offered an interview, as a group, for the job. I’m not expecting that it’s more than a courtesy at this point, but it’s something.

I understand why we all bitch about admin, but if it’s going to be someone, why not us?
 
It’s not for me but we can’t have it both ways. Can’t call them sellouts yet lament how we are the worker bees (thinking of another word that starts with B) for nurses and mbas.
 
Somebodies got to do it, might as well be an EM doc…
 
NYEMMED said:
Somebodies got to do it, might as well be an EM doc…
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My feeling that anyone who actually wants to do this, is likely already well on their way to the dark side. Only way to get a rational, ethical person in admin is to force someone who's not interested into it on a rotating basis.
 
turkeyjerky said:
My feeling that anyone who actually wants to do this, is likely already well on their way to the dark side. Only way to get a rational, ethical person in admin is to force someone who's not interested into it on a rotating basis.
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Think for a moment about the docs sitting next to you on shift.
One of them is amazing and everyone loves her.
The other is slow and can’t dispo anyone or move the department effectively.
Another is very smart but rubs patients and consultants the wrong way. No one wants to ride the elevator with this guy.
The last one is just kinda weird and probably has 10 cats at home.
Do you really want this motley crew serving as CMO on a rotating basis?
 
RuralEDDoc said:
Think for a moment about the docs sitting next to you on shift.
One of them is amazing and everyone loves her.
The other is slow and can’t dispo anyone or move the department effectively.
Another is very smart but rubs patients and consultants the wrong way. No one wants to ride the elevator with this guy.
The last one is just kinda weird and probably has 10 cats at home.
Do you really want this motley crew serving as CMO on a rotating basis?
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I don't think that's what he meant by 'rotating basis' but I can be wrong.
 
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RustedFox said:
I don't think that's what he meant by 'rotating basis' but I can be wrong.
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Sure. My point is that most docs aren’t really suited for admin. My journey through admin hell nearly cost me my career. Let people raise their hand for these kind of jobs. And when they do, don’t hate them for it.
 
Groove said:
MBA makes you a better candidate for CMO at medium/larger hospitals. I personally hate admin positions and can't stand the thought of functioning at high level CMG admin and/or hospital admin. Too much butt kissing, schmoozing, politics, and perfecting the transparency, honesty, "I've got your back" team card while simultaneously demonstrating to your superiors how you can effectively wrangle, control, manipulate and subdue your docs while aligning the goals of the CMG with the hospital and tweaking processes to maximize revenue in the guise of "pt safety, 'provider' wellness, yada yada". What an absolute headache.

In my experience CMO jobs seem to rotate every 2-3 years. If you find an area that you genuinely like...with family and friends nearby, better to be an invisible worker bee. Talk about putting your head on a chopping block for any new CEO that takes over the hospital. That's also a full time gig. I would think it would be difficult if not impossible to reliably keep your skills up to date while simultaneously working in the ED and carrying out your CMO responsibilities.
Click to expand...
CMOs at some of the bigger systems I've worked at make well into the 7 figures. At that rate 3 years can be what one would make in 20 or more as a physician caring for patients. Smaller systems it is less so, perhaps a 200-300% premium.
 
RuralEDDoc said:
Sure. My point is that most docs aren’t really suited for admin. My journey through admin hell nearly cost me my career. Let people raise their hand for these kind of jobs. And when they do, don’t hate them for it.
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Oh, I wasn't being snarky - I hope that I wasn't coming across as adversarial. More just an offhand comment.
And I'm 100% with you on the venom for administrators.

I read his comment as "the only way to get a good admin in is by force, and expect to burn thru several on your way there".
What I *thought* that you were interpreting it as, was: "We have 5 docs that serve as CEO in sequence like a batting order, and then the order starts from the top when it's up."
 
I was chief of my large ER, MEC admin role and in line for MEC chair. Offered President type title to run the ER side of a CMG company which I turned down.

Wasn't just for me. Hate useless meetings to solve trivial issues that should take a 30 sec phone call. Push protocols against what I believe in. Waste time doing mtgs, emails, outreach services just to prove that you are on board. Just felt dirty with many of the directives that I did not agree with. How anyone can push protocols, guidelines, metics, etc against what they believe in is beyond me. Some are able, I am not.

Best decision of my life. I now get to run my FSER and decisions made based on what I believe in.
 
I've had a lot of opportunities come up lately which has been interesting. CMO for insurance vs CMO for hospital and I keep debating these. My personality doesn't fit into the trio described earlier. I maintain generally good relations with everyone but am of the mindset that we have to be the change. We whine so damn much about everything but none of us wants to be in a position to make the change. I will see how it goes. I see these things as a stepping stone to get to CEO level one day but it is pretty optimistic. Will keep you guys updated on the forum how all this goes. I wanted to see if anybody here has been in those specific roles. CMGs have their little "pretend" roles of leadership that I dabbled in but don't even consider it close.
 
turkeyjerky said:
My feeling that anyone who actually wants to do this, is likely already well on their way to the dark side. Only way to get a rational, ethical person in admin is to force someone who's not interested into it on a rotating basis.
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Taking the Hitchhiker's Guide approach to who gets to be in charge I see
 
Mad Jack said:
CMOs at some of the bigger systems I've worked at make well into the 7 figures. At that rate 3 years can be what one would make in 20 or more as a physician caring for patients. Smaller systems it is less so, perhaps a 200-300% premium.
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None of the CMOs in my area make that much but I know it can be done. For those that are curious, you can find out some good information on your hospital by searching their Form 990: Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

This is only for non-profits but most hospitals are. Sometimes the hospital name won't be under what you think it might but you can also search by names in the Advanced Search.
 
Mad Jack said:
CMOs at some of the bigger systems I've worked at make well into the 7 figures. At that rate 3 years can be what one would make in 20 or more as a physician caring for patients. Smaller systems it is less so, perhaps a 200-300% premium.
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Chief Medical Officer Salary | Salary.com

The 2023 average Chief Medical Officer salary in the US is $447,344. How much does a Chief Medical Officer make near you? Get a free salary report today.
www.salary.com

Although that's not the most accurate source, it lists 326K-562K which is pretty consistent with what I've seen. For instance, I work in a large tertiary care center and our CMO made 476K with 46K bonus. I've never heard of a CMO job for that kind of money.. I'm sure they exist but it's got to be the rare exception.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
None of the CMOs in my area make that much but I know it can be done. For those that are curious, you can find out some good information on your hospital by searching their Form 990: Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

This is only for non-profits but most hospitals are. Sometimes the hospital name won't be under what you think it might but you can also search by names in the Advanced Search.
Click to expand...
I have used this for my hospital in the past. The salaries for admins have gone up 50% in the past 5 years. This is one random place

(8) CYNTHIA D ADAMS RN

DIRECTOR		0.0
.................
50.0		X 0816,48226,670
(8) ADNAN R MUNKARAH MD......................................................................
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER		60.00
.................
4.00		 X 1,180,579062,113
 
Groove said:

Chief Medical Officer Salary | Salary.com

The 2023 average Chief Medical Officer salary in the US is $447,344. How much does a Chief Medical Officer make near you? Get a free salary report today.
www.salary.com

Although that's not the most accurate source, it lists 326K-562K which is pretty consistent with what I've seen. For instance, I work in a large tertiary care center and our CMO made 476K with 46K bonus. I've never heard of a CMO job for that kind of money.. I'm sure they exist but it's got to be the rare exception.
Click to expand...
I think 500k is the average at big insurance (work form home alot) and hospitals. 40 hours a week, no nights, no weekends, holidays off, PTO...
 
Groove said:

Chief Medical Officer Salary | Salary.com

The 2023 average Chief Medical Officer salary in the US is $447,344. How much does a Chief Medical Officer make near you? Get a free salary report today.
www.salary.com

Although that's not the most accurate source, it lists 326K-562K which is pretty consistent with what I've seen. For instance, I work in a large tertiary care center and our CMO made 476K with 46K bonus. I've never heard of a CMO job for that kind of money.. I'm sure they exist but it's got to be the rare exception.
Click to expand...
I was quite exhausted when I wrote my post, was thinking of COO/CEO physician salaries rather than CMOs. Yeah, average CMO is around 400-500k in the NE hospitals I'm familiar with. The higher level execs though... One particular C-suiter had more reported fringe benefits than most doctors made in salary
 
If you want to be a long lasting and effective CMO in a high salary large system, you must be able to sell part of your soul. I just do not see any way around this. I have seen this all the time from great docs who became CMOs, high Admin, VPs of CMGs, etc.

Sure a small rural hospital will give you a larger leash but don't expect to make a large paycheck. CMOs in these smaller rural hospitals are typically full time docs who does the CMO as a side gig.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
I have used this for my hospital in the past. The salaries for admins have gone up 50% in the past 5 years. This is one random place

(8) CYNTHIA D ADAMS RN

DIRECTOR		0.0
.................
50.0		X0816,48226,670
(8) ADNAN R MUNKARAH MD......................................................................
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER		60.00
.................
4.00		X1,180,579062,113
Click to expand...
Explain these numbers?
 
Mad Jack said:
I was quite exhausted when I wrote my post, was thinking of COO/CEO physician salaries rather than CMOs. Yeah, average CMO is around 400-500k in the NE hospitals I'm familiar with. The higher level execs though... One particular C-suiter had more reported fringe benefits than most doctors made in salary
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"More fringe benefits than most doctors made in salary"

... and we wonder why we don't get more for our healthcare buck here in America.

These useless figureheads have to go.
 
I operate out of a small community health system in California (3 hospitals with a total of ~400 beds between the 3).

CEO Salary- ~$1.5 million
CMO Salary- ~$650,000

Hours worked~ 40. Low stress. Go to BS meetings. Minimal real work. Year to year raises.

You just have to sellout to admin and join the dark side.

Main issue is, unless you toe the company line, your job is at risk.

In addition, any m0ron can be in admin. It's a sweet gig but doesn't require anything special.

It is rare to find talented and exceptional admin. Vast majority are lazy and just want to continue to collect a paycheck without actually improving anything.
 
RustedFox said:
"More fringe benefits than most doctors made in salary"

... and we wonder why we don't get more for our healthcare buck here in America.

These useless figureheads have to go.
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In fairness, she really did run the place well. I don't think they've ever bled red in that system, unlike every other one in the region. A million dollars in fringe benefits is a small price to pay for a system that isn't falling apart.
 
anonperson said:
I operate out of a small community health system in California (3 hospitals with a total of ~400 beds between the 3).

CEO Salary- ~$1.5 million
CMO Salary- ~$650,000

Hours worked~ 40. Low stress. Go to BS meetings. Minimal real work. Year to year raises.

You just have to sellout to admin and join the dark side.

Main issue is, unless you toe the company line, your job is at risk.

In addition, any m0ron can be in admin. It's a sweet gig but doesn't require anything special.

It is rare to find talented and exceptional admin. Vast majority are lazy and just want to continue to collect a paycheck without actually improving anything.
Click to expand...
Plus having it on your resume allows you to jump to other CMO positions. Their lifespan is usually 2-3 years I feel at a place.
 
For an RN to make 800K, yes go and sell your soul. If I were making 100-150K as a staff RN, I could see selling my soul for 800K.

Many EM docs can make 400K, so the increase in salary just doesn't seem worth it to alienate your colleagues and not be able to look yourself in the mirror.
 
SeekerOfTheTree said:
I have used this for my hospital in the past. The salaries for admins have gone up 50% in the past 5 years. This is one random place

(8) CYNTHIA D ADAMS RN

DIRECTOR		0.0
.................
50.0		X0816,48226,670
(8) ADNAN R MUNKARAH MD......................................................................
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER		60.00
.................
4.00		X1,180,579062,113
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I would call Henry Ford a random place. Obviously, the CMOs of the largest hospitals/health systems get into 7 figures, but that's not the norm.
 
RustedFox said:
So this RN is knocking down 850K a year as a suit.

No wonder our healthcare system is broke. And broke👎.
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She's likely the CNO or another c-suite office. Sometimes the titles can be misleading and aren't always super accurate. But, again, this is from one of the larger healthcare systems in the US, a $3B-4B company.
 
There seems to be a lot of conflation between ED director and CMO. One is the head of the ED, usually appointed by whoever owns the contract, and is responsible for the day to day medical side of running the ED. Their days are spent dealing with patients complaints, liasing with ED nursing leadership, and sitting on committees like Med Exec, Patient Safety, and whatever other committees the hospital or contract owner(s) feel is too important to be left to some random widget.

The CMO is the chief medical officer for the hospital and is typically a salaried position with very significant clinical offload. Unlike the rotating every x years med exec president, CMOs keep their position for as long as they can hang on. They spend their days dealing with physician complaints, acting as the hospital's representative for the high-level clinical committees, and participating in the strategic planning of the hospital with the rest of the C-suite. CMO tends to be popular with EM admin types who are politically savvy but tired of being caught between two masters.
 
What’s even worse is that in many places, the CMO gets frequently overruled by the CNO, even in physician related affairs. So you sell your soul, don’t make that much more than a doc on average, and take your marching orders from some RN admin.

No thanks.
 
bravotwozero said:
What’s even worse is that in many places, the CMO gets frequently overruled by the CNO, even in physician related affairs. So you sell your soul, don’t make that much more than a doc on average, and take your marching orders from some RN admin.

No thanks.
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For no nights, no weekends, no PLP charts, and no liability?
 
Also note that if there is ever a major case gone wrong or conflict in the media the CMO usually has to come on and comment on the care.
 
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