College...a scam?

[thecgrblue]

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Starting a new thread from a post made in another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VpZtX32sKVE

The college-industrial complex has created not only myths, but outright hoaxes, in order to scam American students into becoming indentured servants for life.

Three years ago when 15 new pharmacist schools were about to open in the U.S., the college cartel bribed economists to come out with phony research reports showing that the U.S. was experiencing a huge shortage of pharmacists. The reports said that 150,000 new pharmacists would be needed in the U.S. by 2020 due to the aging babyboomer population and a huge boom in 24-hour pharmacies being built nationwide.

Today, NIA is receiving reports of pharmacies on the east coast receiving 300 applications for each new pharmacist job opening.

 

[imemily]

Let's just say if this was true.

Would you still pursue higher education?

I'm guessing most would. The average joe has very little choice compared to the true leaders/rulers.

However, ultimately the trick is to ignore this stuff and enjoy what you do. Money is only a figment of your imagination!

 

[sergioxl]

It might have been a planned "scam" or just a lapse of judgment.

But like imemily, you would likely go anyways, and enjoy it all the same even if you knew this to be true before you started college.

 

[RD2011]

;;

 

[thecgrblue]

Money is a "figment of your imagination"??? Sorry, but life doesn't take payment in the form of hopes, dreams, and unicorns.

The guy talks about student loans being the next bubble to "burst". Can you really compare student loans to real estate? If someone defaults on their student loan you don't have something physical that you can lose. What are they going to do...erase your brain? Sounds like a new sci-fi flick...or an adaptation of "Repo Men".

 

[Optogal]

The guy talks about student loans being the next bubble to "burst". Can you really compare student loans to real estate? If someone defaults on their student loan you don't have something physical that you can lose. What are they going to do...erase your brain? Sounds like a new sci-fi flick...or an adaptation of "Repo Men".

The comparison is that students may start defaulting on their student loans in mass numbers, just as the house owners did.

I think the premise of the video is reasonable. Easy loans have led to huge increases in tuition. (why wouldn't colleges try to profit from all available money?)

 

[Shnurek]

America needs to return to its original premise of the land of the free. We have too much legislation and government regulation of everything, especially of the economy. This is why all these companies are outsourcing to other countries because there are less bureaucrats to support, less taxes, less restrictions, and cheaper labor elsewhere.

As for the student loans, my suggestion, just go to a public school CC or state college. I know 3 people personally that all went to CUNY (Community College) and one is in Goldmann Sachs raking in $65k a year, another is now in med school and another just got into law school.

Tuition? CUNY-Undergrad: $4000 a year.

 

[Commando303]

America needs to return to its original premise of the land of the free. We have too much legislation and government regulation of everything, especially of the economy. This is why all these companies are outsourcing to other countries because there are less bureaucrats to support, less taxes, less restrictions, and cheaper labor elsewhere.

As for the student loans, my suggestion, just go to a public school CC or state college. I know 3 people personally that all went to CUNY (Community College) and one is in Goldmann Sachs raking in $65k a year, another is now in med school and another just got into law school.

Tuition? CUNY-Undergrad: $4000 a year.

At least, when it comes to under-graduate education, publicly-subsidized options often exist (of course, they're seldom as good values as are many of the C.U.N.Y. colleges). In terms of professional schools, however, the finances are just fuhking laughable. In particular, institutions that grant degrees for the "health professions" have raised their rates by staggering amounts from the 1990s to 2011, and there seems to be no end in sight; there's hardly a shortage of applicants, after all, who'll do "whatever it takes to achieve my dream; I won't let money stand in my way — !" The loans are out there, easily enough scopped up (subsidized ones cannot close to cover the full cost of even tuition, but luckily there're those generous unsub. amounts, with higher interest-rates, which kick in right away, but don't have to be given any thought until six months after you get your diploma) — never mind we'll be paying them back for ten or fifteen years after graduation. Hey, it isn't a problem, though: we'll have "great jobs that pay very, very well"; thank god we took the college-route, and thank god we have an unlimited supply of patients awaiting us, courtesy of the "baby-boom generation."

Plenty of my peers are in a far worse boat: the one in which they'll be re-paying loans for twenty or thirty years, instead, because they went to a "great" (private) under-grad., too, from which they're carrying about as much debt as they'll accummulate in professional school (mighty fine of lenders to defer those payments, as well, of course).

So, what do you do? Either avoid getting into the field that attracts you, or pretend the overbearing problems don't exist. Maybe mommy and daddy could chip in a bit; hell, that money doesn't count: you're not paying interest on it. I guess you could always just rely on dying young ("young"), instead: stay in school, live off infinitely-deferred loans, and shuffle off before you ever have to pay back anything. That might be the best plan, especially if you genuinely like being in the classroom (plenty of people do) and have limited interest in actually practicing: lenders can pick up the buck on your housing, auto., education, food, clothing, etc., for as long as you're enrolled in an accredited institution; then, "Good-bye, and I'll take your three-quarters-of-a-million-plus dollars, with myself" — now, there's an idea...

 

[DawgOD]

a little off topic, but I think a 4-year undergrad degree is a scam period. The classes I took my first two years in undergrad, the majority I had in high school. Why am I retaking them? I still don't understand that. It makes what I learned in high school seem like a total waste of time.

It's all about the $$$ IMO.

 

[Shnurek]

a little off topic, but I think a 4-year undergrad degree is a scam period. The classes I took my first two years in undergrad, the majority I had in high school. Why am I retaking them? I still don't understand that. It makes what I learned in high school seem like a total waste of time.

It's all about the $$$ IMO.

I had a friend actually that after 8th grade she got her GED and went straight into a community college. Then immediately into law school. She just passed her BAR at age 21.

 

[SIUE optkid]

As for health professions raising there costs by a ton: i can only say this. yes that is true, but what else should we do? i have a BS of biology that i got a week ago and i already know its practically worthless. Undergrad degree is the new high school diploma and if you pick those interesting subjects like biology or psychology you dont have very many paths that lead to success with bachelors degrees. In these degrees, you go to grad school, or you work at a restraunt....

As for college teaching you the wrong things: YES! Why did i learn half of the things i learned? Please someone explain why i sat through 3 months of force equation and 3 months of circuit equations in physics and spend 3 days on optics? and explain all the gen eds i have to take? Almost worthless.

As for the cost of college: if your doing optometry i strongly suggest you do what i did. Go to community college for 2 years and a cheap state school the other 2 years. Don't slack off and do well in your courses. I think grad schools understand that not everyone can afford these expensive schools. Would i be more attractive if i went to University of Illinois, sure. I don't think grad schools will hold you back for being poor though, they welcomed me with open arms.

 

[thecgrblue]

I'm just glad my undergrad was dirt cheap. Combining PELL grants and SMART grants I was actually getting paid about $2,700/ semester for 2 years of it. Pretty messed up that I can pull that off...but not going to complain.

 

[netmag]

The video does a good job of pointing out some real issues. However, the way to tell it's worth is in regards to the "solutions" that are proposed.

Their solutions have an obvious political bent and a quick google search shows that the people behind do indeed have a political agenda. Anti-higher education, anti-any student taking loans to get more education (i.e. if ten people use the loans inappropriately then everyone needs to be denied loans type of mentality), anti-teachers, anti-govt... basically all the same old themes of some political action groups.

They seem to promote just ending all lending for schools and restricting higher education only to those who can afford it. This is a common theme from certain people that feel that keeping a large percentage of the American population "less educated" works in their favor. I'm not sure why that is since we live in a world economy and the rest of the world is getting a lot more educated. It makes things much worse for America in general, but apparently is good for a select group of people.

However, as I said, the problems that are pointed out are valid and to be honest not everyone is cut out to go into higher education anyway. College costs are insanely high that is true. I'm just not sure if the first solution should be something that just immediately cuts off a large group of people because it "might" cause the outrageous tuitions seen today to go back down to what they were in the 1950's. Maybe there's some other things that could be tried first that don't immediately attack large numbers of the general public in the process.

 

[Optogal]

In today's news.


The Great Recession's lost generation

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/17/news/economy/recession_lost_generation/index.htm?hpt=C2


Brittney Winters, 23, graduated from Princeton University in 2009 and can't find a teaching job, despite graduating from a top school.
"When you go to an Ivy League school, you figure this degree will mean something -- that it will guarantee you a job," she said.
Winters has taken on other "survival" jobs to get by, including working at a video rental store.

 

[KHE]

In today's news.


The Great Recession's lost generation

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/17/news/economy/recession_lost_generation/index.htm?hpt=C2


Brittney Winters, 23, graduated from Princeton University in 2009 and can't find a teaching job, despite graduating from a top school.
"When you go to an Ivy League school, you figure this degree will mean something -- that it will guarantee you a job," she said.
Winters has taken on other "survival" jobs to get by, including working at a video rental store.

I did not get a chance to watch the video. I will make the effort to watch it because it seems interesting but here's the thing....

People really have to start looking at college (or grad school) as an investment in themselves and start asking the question....what is the expected return on this investment going to be?

College is no longer a ticket to a middle class lifestyle. In fact, if not done correctly, college tuition can be a boat anchor around your neck.

In my practice I see lots of young people who are attending local universities here in CT. Fairfield University, Sacred Heart, University of Hartford, University of New Haven, Quinnipiac...even Yale.

Now, these are all fine enough schools, especially Yale. But they're all private schools. So the tuition is extraordinary.

And I frequently ask these people....what do you study there and I'm amazed at how often I get a response like "elementary education."

Now....being an elementary school teacher is a fine job. But have these people THOUGHT about how much second grade teachers get paid? They're going to be paying off that tuition until the day they DIE. Why go to a private school for something like that?

So you gotta think. It's hard because when you're 17, you don't have the experience or the frame of reference to know what questions to ask. You buy into the idea that adults and teachers have fed you for twelve years which is "study hard, stay in school, go to college and you will get a good job."

Well, that ain't always the case now, is it?

So think about it. Think real hard about it.

 

[Visionary]

to be honest not everyone is cut out to go into higher education anyway.

Key point ignored by many. While some view a college degree as the new HS diploma, it's not ... or at least it shouldn't be. What's the national university drop-out rate? About 50%, and that's allowing six years to graduate. Colleges have no incentive to be more selective. Actually, the opposite is true. The more students, the more tuition (i.e., revenue).

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Starting a new thread from a post made in another:

To be fair, any one of those applicants could get a job in East Texas tomorrow. Getting a job in the DC to Boston corridor is nearly impossible. And that video is full of several logical leaps. I think it was made by a kookie gold and silver hawk...

 

[thiaeyemd]

I think that there is a good point on some of these posts. If you want to go to an Ivy League school and want to be a teacher or librarian or other modestly paid profession it probably doesn't make sense. I went to NYU, my brother went to Yale and I will tell you in all honestly I didn't meet one person who went to school with my brother who wanted to become a teacher. Are there a couple people who do..I am sure there are but the vast majority of students at Yale have much higher aspirations and goals. A lot of people there had started nonprofits as undergraduates, started their own business, were getting ready for graduate degrees etc...At NYU there were more people who were interested in more "basic" jobs..accountant, architect etc...My cousin went to Rutgers and there were much more people interested in lower paying jobs. Probably is a good point that if you want to become a second grade teacher and make 40K-50K probably not worth going to Harvard...that being said most people interested in secondary school education at Harvard end up becoming a city school chancellor and not a teacher for long..

 

[Optogal]

I agree with the above. Folks getting into the top Ivys are really ambitious/talented folks. With the number of applicants these days to top US schools, you have to be really really good to get in. I doubt most have their eyes set on "just" teacher's education. I'd even say those that end up at med school etc., probably "wasted" a spot.

Which brings up another point. For children coming out of most low-middle class families, about the best realistic thing they can strive for is a professional degree (e.g. be a doctor, a lawyer). So they went from a blue-collar family into a medical specialty. That's pretty good, but the point I'm getting to is why, despite the anti-PC nature of this, it's actually pretty reasonable for IVYs to admit based on legacies.

It's pretty clear that kids of people in high places (politicians, royalty, nouveau riche, etc.) rise faster in the food chain than those without connections. As I said, a blue-collar kid pretty much maxes out as an MD. But the kid of a Governor? They move up in whatever job they have like lightning. This, despite the fact that in a "controlled" academic environment, the blue collar kid out performed the governor kid in terms of marks in the same classes. So at the student-cosm level, it seems it shouldn't be fair for a school to admit the governor-kid over the blue-collar-kid. But which of the two will likely get "further" in life, in terms of who has the higher ceiling? Clearly the governor's kid, who would be a better bet than the blue-collar kid to become governor or President.

Anyways - the point I'm making is that legacy application plus-points is very un-PC. But the reality is that if you're a university administrator, and you want to increase your universities' reputation/prestige by hopefully educating tomorrow's leaders, you're better of admitting some "weaker" connected kids as opposed to a bunch of 4.0s from "regular" families. In the first case you are educating the future of finance/government. In the 2nd case you just have a bunch of practicing doctors.

 

[thecgrblue]

And that video is full of several logical leaps. I think it was made by a kookie gold and silver hawk...

Can't say I don't agree.

 

[eyestrain]

I had a friend actually that after 8th grade she got her GED and went straight into a community college. Then immediately into law school. She just passed her BAR at age 21.

That's awesome. I really wish our educational system was more streamlined somehow. You shouldn't need 4 years of college and 4 years of OD school to be an OD. It should just be something you enter after high school and whittle it down to 5 or 6 years total.

 

[Shnurek]

That's awesome. I really wish our educational system was more streamlined somehow. You shouldn't need 4 years of college and 4 years of OD school to be an OD. It should just be something you enter after high school and whittle it down to 5 or 6 years total.

I'm glad we think alike. Same thing for ophthalmology. Do you really need 4 years of college, 4 years of general medical school where maybe only ~10%-20% you will actually use in your practice of ophthalmology, 1 year internship, 3 years residency and 2 years optional fellowship.

In all honesty, high school is pretty much the most useless if you think about it. You just repeat the same courses in college.

 

[KHE]

I'm glad we think alike. Same thing for ophthalmology. Do you really need 4 years of college, 4 years of general medical school where maybe only ~10%-20% you will actually use in your practice of ophthalmology, 1 year internship, 3 years residency and 2 years optional fellowship.

In all honesty, high school is pretty much the most useless if you think about it. You just repeat the same courses in college.

Maybe then it's college that's useless.

 

[Veritas23]

Maybe then it's college that's useless.

Yes that may be so but in terms of the system that we have set up now you must prove your "worth" and "intellect" by trudging through the proving grounds of Organic Chemistry, Biology, General Chemistry, Physics, and more to be "worth" gaining acceptance to a medical professional school...

College helped me grow intellectually and I know I wouldn't be the same intellectually advanced person I am now without it but was it worth the private tuition I paid, totaling $200,000? Maybe, maybe not. We'll see how that situation proves itself, especially in my financial situation in ten years, in the years to come.

 

[imemily]

That's awesome. I really wish our educational system was more streamlined somehow. You shouldn't need 4 years of college and 4 years of OD school to be an OD. It should just be something you enter after high school and whittle it down to 5 or 6 years total.

If it were that short than everybody would be on the boat to OD school, med school etc. Unless you could become a teacher in 6 months!

 

[thiaeyemd]

I think you do need those years...I use my medical training routinely...I had a patient who coded in the OR last month and I helped the Anesthesiolgist code the patient and put in a central line. That was from my medical education...The acceptance rate to medical school is low so you need the undergraduate degree to give the people who do not get in an alternative degree etc... so they are not left with nothing...It terms of proving your worth and intellect by trudging through pre med classes, it isn't the information that is key for those classes but they type of thinking. You need to foundations of bio, chem,physics etc.. for med school. Chem and orgo are used in renal medicine, physics by radiologists etc..We all use some of those classes in med school and even residency. For ophthalmologists, optics are important..The point is also that if people can't do those simple classes how can they go through med school. It is a screening device.

 

[KHE]

I think you do need those years...I use my medical training routinely...I had a patient who coded in the OR last month and I helped the Anesthesiolgist code the patient and put in a central line. That was from my medical education...The acceptance rate to medical school is low so you need the undergraduate degree to give the people who do not get in an alternative degree etc... so they are not left with nothing...It terms of proving your worth and intellect by trudging through pre med classes, it isn't the information that is key for those classes but they type of thinking. You need to foundations of bio, chem,physics etc.. for med school. Chem and orgo are used in renal medicine, physics by radiologists etc..We all use some of those classes in med school and even residency. For ophthalmologists, optics are important..The point is also that if people can't do those simple classes how can they go through med school. It is a screening device.

I think the point being made is that you could up with a much more efficient, accurate and LESS COSTLY "screening device" than 4 years of college to the tune of a hundred grand.

What that would be, I'm not sure but just because something has been done a certain way for 100 years doesn't mean it's the best way.

 

[thiaeyemd]

agreed but there has to be some screening system..can you do it at the high school level? What happens to people in college who are pre med,vet,dental,opt and don't get into anything. They need a degree etc... 4-5 classes as a requirement and a standardized test is not that big a deal. This way people get a degree if they don't get through the system. Some med schools don't require a bachelors and will take people after two or three years. Also the 6 year med school system has proven to be flawed with most people who have been through it regretting it..

 

[SakuraWT]

i personally don't think college is a waste of time. yes i understand that some high school grads are capable of handling the intellectual aspects of med school or other professional schools, but there are other things at play to being a professional, such as maturity and being able to present oneself properly. looking at the vast majority of high school kids, i dont think they have that kind of maturity to approach a patient. honestly, how many people would feel comfortable with a 17 year old telling them which meds they should take?

i have a friend who is going to medical school next year who is turning 17 this summer. he's incredibly intelligent and if you ask him to explain a specific scientific concept, he's definitely competent. but emotionally, he is definitely NOT ready to talk with someone reassuringly and in a sympathetic manner. as a teenager, there are plenty of other things that one is worrying about. college, i feel, is a time to smooth out those worries and figure out what one truly wants out of life. i think that the independence from parents or other influences and the exposure to many different lifestyles at once helped me appreciate what i have up to this day and it's guided me in the direction i want to live my life. anyhow, thats my two cents.

 

[Commando303]

i personally don't think college is a waste of time. yes i understand that some high school grads are capable of handling the intellectual aspects of med school or other professional schools, but there are other things at play to being a professional, such as maturity and being able to present oneself properly. looking at the vast majority of high school kids, i dont think they have that kind of maturity to approach a patient. honestly, how many people would feel comfortable with a 17 year old telling them which meds they should take?

i have a friend who is going to medical school next year who is turning 17 this summer. he's incredibly intelligent and if you ask him to explain a specific scientific concept, he's definitely competent. but emotionally, he is definitely NOT ready to talk with someone reassuringly and in a sympathetic manner. as a teenager, there are plenty of other things that one is worrying about. college, i feel, is a time to smooth out those worries and figure out what one truly wants out of life. i think that the independence from parents or other influences and the exposure to many different lifestyles at once helped me appreciate what i have up to this day and it's guided me in the direction i want to live my life. anyhow, thats my two cents.

No offense (of course, you're entitled to your view), but I think that's preposterous. College does not — and should not — exist to help one to "mature." Life, not classroom education, imbues maturity. The seventeen-year-old you mention probably will experience the "emotional growth" you cite regardless of whether he pursues/attains an associate's or a bachelor's degree; likewise, someone doomed to idiocy in this regard likely couldn't flush it out of her or his veins with myriad doctoral degrees.

 

[DawgOD]

Life, not classroom education, imbues maturity. The seventeen-year-old you mention probably will experience the "emotional growth" you cite regardless of whether he pursues/attains an associate's or a bachelor's degree; likewise, someone doomed to idiocy in this regard likely couldn't flush it out of her or his veins with myriad doctoral degrees.

👍

 

[SakuraWT]

I agree...its not the classroom that matures someone and that it's life. but the COLLEGE SETTING does present a lot of opportunities to interact with people. i know that if i was living in my house throughout college, i would never be exposed to certain situations or learned to deal with difficult situations on my own. can you think of another opportunity in which you interact with people practically every hour of your day? sure, working in the "real world" can mature someone, but i feel that that is a different kind of maturity. in my college experience, i learned a ton about how people interact, how friendships form and break apart, and a lot about myself by being able to "sample" all these different kinds of people. again, im not saying that getting a degree equates maturity. im just saying the college lifestyle helps with maturity.

No offense (of course, you're entitled to your view), but I think that's preposterous. College does not — and should not — exist to help one to "mature." Life, not classroom education, imbues maturity. The seventeen-year-old you mention probably will experience the "emotional growth" you cite regardless of whether he pursues/attains an associate's or a bachelor's degree; likewise, someone doomed to idiocy in this regard likely couldn't flush it out of her or his veins with myriad doctoral degrees.

 

[Eyes Only]

I missed some of the early post and am quite amused by the naivety of the young these days. When you say money doesn't matter consider this...

The average indebtedness for the optometry class of 2011 is probably $150-200k. They will refinance this over 30 years because they can't afford the monthly payments that are around $1800-$2000. At current interest rates they will repay $300,000 to $400,000. By the way, you can't get out of these using bankruptcy, so don't try that.

So those of you who are still living with mom and dad saying money doesn't matter, think again.

And please stop the posts about going to state schools, living at home, blah, blah, blah. Hardly anyone does this and you're not changing anyone 's mind. Attending a private school, which is many students only option, is going to require borrowing money on the order of $40-50k per year with tuition, books, equipment, and living expenses.

So if you don't have rich parents or a public optometry school in your backyard, you should seriously consider the investment you are making.

Going to college, and especially optometry school, was the best decision I ever made. But please educate yourself about finances before you start. Otherwise instead of running your dream practice you will be refracting at wallyworld and complaining about on these forums in a few years.

 

[Shnurek]

So if you don't have rich parents or a public optometry school in your backyard, you should seriously consider the investment you are making.

Going to college, and especially optometry school, was the best decision I ever made. But please educate yourself about finances before you start. Otherwise instead of running your dream practice you will be refracting at wallyworld and complaining about on these forums in a few years.

👍👍👍

 

[Shnurek]

Eyes only, if its OK with you I reposted your advice in the Pre-Optometry forum because a lot of the things that are said in the Optometry forum as perhaps more relevant there. Cheers.

 

[Eyes Only]

Eyes only, if its OK with you I reposted your advice in the Pre-Optometry forum because a lot of the things that are said in the Optometry forum as perhaps more relevant there. Cheers.

Optometry students and pre-optometry students deserve to know the way things really are. This can be a great profession, but if you're not careful you can end up like all the miserable ODs posting on these forums.

The goods news is that you get to determine what your future in optometry will be. The bad news is it's up to you to determine what your future in optometry will be.