Colorado

[Saluki]

After interviewing, Colorado was one of my top choices, but since then I've heard some concerning things about resident happiness that have concerned me including some whispers on the interview trail that it's one of the few malignant psychiatry programs. Would any current or former residents be willing to chime in? Feel free to pm if you would prefer.

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[atsai3]

After interviewing, Colorado was one of my top choices, but since then I've heard some concerning things about resident happiness that have concerned me including some whispers on the interview trail that it's one of the few malignant psychiatry programs. Would any current or former residents be willing to chime in? Feel free to pm if you would prefer.

It would be more helpful for SDN if you actually described the 'whispers' that you heard.

 

[Saluki]

I feel like saying rumors that the program is malignant is specific enough to address the question.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Colorado has been well discussed here in the past. These rumors are not new.

 

[Saluki]

Colorado has been well discussed here in the past. These rumors are not new.

I did a search of this forum before posting the question. I found several posts that mentioned the rumors but almost no posts from residents confirming or denying the rumors based on their own experiences.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I did a search of this forum before posting the question. I found several posts that mentioned the rumors but almost no posts from residents confirming or denying the rumors based on their own experiences.

I agree that it isn't easy to find. If you lurk long enough, you learn where people train/match. Then when they voice unhappiness you put the pieces together.

I won't repeat specifics. It isn't my place. I'll just say that Colorado has not kept all residents pleased.

 

[digitlnoize]

I've heard similar vague rumblings, but nothing substantial enough to make me think it's a horrendous program. It may not be ideal, and certain people might have problems there, but you might be willing to overlook some shortcomings due to other factors (location, etc).

There are 2 reviews on Scutwork: 1 decent, 1 terrible. Both are lacking in details, IMO. The bad review is particularly sparse. The SDN chatter has been more under the radar. If you're that serious about this, just spend all weekend reading through old threads (not just threads about CO, but any threads about general unhappiness), and try to sort out who might be unhappy and where they might attend (from their old post history, location noted on SDN screen name area, post comments, etc). You CAN figure out where most people are from if you dig hard enough. The CO peeps usually mention skiing or something CO-oriented at some point, since it's such a nice place, it's hard not to do some bragging

Or, maybe one of them will see your plight and PM you...

 

[BobA]

After interviewing, Colorado was one of my top choices, but since then I've heard some concerning things about resident happiness that have concerned me including some whispers on the interview trail that it's one of the few malignant psychiatry programs. Would any current or former residents be willing to chime in? Feel free to pm if you would prefer.

I know nothing of these rumblings. However, anonymous program bashing really bothers me.

I propose that concluding a program is "malignant" or "benign" may be an example of black/white thinking. There are some programs that match better with some people than others.

Is Colorado right for you? That's the important part.

 

[Saluki]

I know nothing of these rumblings. However, anonymous program bashing really bothers me.

I propose that concluding a program is "malignant" or "benign" may be an example of black/white thinking. There are some programs that match better with some people than others.

Is Colorado right for you? That's the important part.

No one on this thread has bashed the program or labeled it benign or malignant. And I think knowing whether the current residents are generally happy and well treated is relevant to making the decision of whether a program would be a good fit.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I know nothing of these rumblings. However, anonymous program bashing really bothers me.

I propose that concluding a program is "malignant" or "benign" may be an example of black/white thinking. There are some programs that match better with some people than others.

Is Colorado right for you? That's the important part.

Overreact much?

 

[heyjack70]

I'm pretty sure Denver has the lowest, ambient partial pressure of oxygen of any psych residency location. That can't bode well for the program.

 

[Rena]

Check posts by Master-of-Monkey but it might be highly subjective.

 

[peppy]

I think it's valid to ask about if a certain program is malignant or not.
The problem with getting firsthand confirmation of malignancy is that, most of the time, residents are reluctant to come right out and say "don't come here" or explicitly identify their program if they are unhappy.
If I were unhappy at my current place, I probably wouldn't say anything to expose it to applicants because 1) I wouldn't want to end up making myself a target for the administration by being "The resident who is scaring away the applicants" and 2) it might harm the eventual prestige/value of my education if the program can't attract good candidates anymore.
This is why most of the time these things stay rumors and most of the time you won't get direct confirmation.

All I can say is that back when I was applying, I did interview at UC because of its academic rep and the geographic location. Nothing bad happened during my interview, but if I had known beforehand about the "rumors" that I ended up finding out about later then I probably wouldn't have bothered. I heard enough negative things afterwards to think "Where there's smoke, there's fire". For some people the risk of having to put up with some unhappiness at work might be worth it to live in an ideal geographic location and/or get a name brand education. For me, however, it would definitely not be worth it and I avoided any whiff of malignancy. In the end, I ended up at a very laidback, friendly place and don't regret it at all.

 

[Saluki]

I think it's valid to ask about if a certain program is malignant or not.
The problem with getting firsthand confirmation of malignancy is that, most of the time, residents are reluctant to come right out and say "don't come here" or explicitly identify their program if they are unhappy.
If I were unhappy at my current place, I probably wouldn't say anything to expose it to applicants because 1) I wouldn't want to end up making myself a target for the administration by being "The resident who is scaring away the applicants" and 2) it might harm the eventual prestige/value of my education if the program can't attract good candidates anymore.
This is why most of the time these things stay rumors and most of the time you won't get direct confirmation.

All I can say is that back when I was applying, I did interview at UC because of its academic rep and the geographic location. Nothing bad happened during my interview, but if I had known beforehand about the "rumors" that I ended up finding out about later then I probably wouldn't have bothered. I heard enough negative things afterwards to think "Where there's smoke, there's fire". For some people the risk of having to put up with some unhappiness at work might be worth it to live in an ideal geographic location and/or get a name brand education. For me, however, it would definitely not be worth it and I avoided any whiff of malignancy. In the end, I ended up at a very laidback, friendly place and don't regret it at all.

Thanks, Peppy. I doubted that someone in the program would publicly confirm the rumors, but I was really hoping that some current residents would come forward to deny the rumors and say how happy they are. It's happened before on SDN with other programs where someone says that program Y is weak at X, and within a day, four people have posted that program Y is actually great at X. I can't really draw any conclusions from the lack of response, though; it may be that all the current residents spend their free time on the slopes rather than SDN
At this point, I'm just going to finish up my interviews and go with gut feeling when I have to rank.

 

[freaker]

There's a thread entitled "So I left" about a former Colorado resident who was basically run out of the program for medical issues and with apparently little support or supervision. Take any of these reports with a grain of sand, as there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that no one knows about in any store as the above.

If you do place Colorado as first on your match list, just don't go putting all of your eggs in one basket. I can say for a fact that Colorado program director told myself and another resident in my current program that we would definitely (underlined and in italics in the email I received from their PD) match with them and obviously neither of us did after we ranked them first. It came as a bit of a shock on match day and reading the name of my number 2 through the envelope, but so it goes.

My impression was that they had a good program with one of the strongest offerings of fellowships I'd come across on the interview trail. I didn't hear about the malignancy rumors until further down the line.

See if you can contact some of the residents. Ideally at least second year residents. You'll learn more that way.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I wouldn't read a lot into residents not coming on to deny stuff, either, since most residents out there don't post on SDN. It seems like a lot of people read here at some time or other but very few actually join or post for whatever reasons. So no one coming in and denying malignancy doesn't mean a whole lot.

Like others have said, I'd try to get as much information from current residents as you can and try to get a feel for what type of person you are and if that meshes with the residents who are happy/unhappy there.

 

[heyjack70]

When I interviewed at Colorado, I met two residents the entire day. One during an interview and one on the tour. I think we bumped into another randomly in the PES while on the tour, but that was it. I found it odd that in a program of >40 residents I met only 3 on interview day. I also found the PD to be a bit odd, but hey that's my perspective. Ultimately I think I didn't match there because of my political beliefs..also I was stealing projectors.

 

[zihuatanejo]

When I interviewed at Colorado, I met two residents the entire day. One during an interview and one on the tour. I think we bumped into another randomly in the PES while on the tour, but that was it. I found it odd that in a program of >40 residents I met only 3 on interview day. I also found the PD to be a bit odd, but hey that's my perspective. Ultimately I think I didn't match there because of my political beliefs..also I was stealing projectors.

I also found the Program Director at Colorado to be quite egocentric, pretentious, and just plain odd. I found her attitude so off-putting that I crossed this program off my list after my interview. I am really glad that I trusted my gut instinct on this one.

 

[psychphan]

After interviewing, Colorado was one of my top choices, but since then I've heard some concerning things about resident happiness that have concerned me including some whispers on the interview trail that it's one of the few malignant psychiatry programs. Would any current or former residents be willing to chime in? Feel free to pm if you would prefer.

I think it would be a shame to not highly rank a program you really liked and had a good feeling about based solely on negative hearsay and internet rumors. Of course its important to gather as much information as you can prior to match day, and SDN can certainly be a great reference for that. Personally though, I'd put much more stalk in my own impression and general gut feeling over past resident unhappiness and vague rumors on a faceless message board.

On a side note, I interview there later on in the season, I'm curious as to how I will perceive it.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

I had thought I was more circumspect in posting where I was from than I had been. Oh well. Stuff happens.

Something I've tried to make clear is that my experience was MY EXPERIENCE, and nothing else. Yeah, I've seen enough and heard enough to know that there was some generalizabiliity to it, but still...Subective. As I've also indicated, I am far from blameless in my role in my negative experience with the program.

I've made this offer in PMs everytime I discussed my experience and I will do so here as well, since you can't erase the internet. I can put people in touch with graduates and current residents who've had a much more positive experience from the program than I ever did.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I had thought I was more circumspect in posting where I was from than I had been. Oh well. Stuff happens.

You were, but we are elephants around here.

You should really get a big hug and a bunch of mad props for the way you've handled this even publicly. And the fact that you're still able to say good things about the program you had a bad experience with says a whole bunch of nice things about you and the program.

 

[Saluki]

I'm really sorry that this turned into a revealing of Master of Monkeys. I was hoping to simply hear from some current residents to hopefully alleviate the concerns raised by interview trail rumors... Instead, the thread seems to have gone in a completely different direction, and I apologize.

 

[Mastac741]

I'm from Denver, and I had an enormous amount of pressure from my parents and in-laws to rank Colorado #1 on my match list. I wanted and tried very hard to like the program. There were a couple things that I couldn't get over: #1 - look back to about 5 years ago, they closed their psychiatric unit at the colorado anschutz center. They were having serious money problems. This was a red flag for me. #2 - You do most of your clinical work at a community hospital (Denver General), and it seemed to me you were being trained by community psychiatrists working there. I might be wrong, but the psychiatrist that we met there that was working there was just a hired psychiatrist to work at the hospital. Thus, you're being trained by only mildly affiliated psychiatrist to the University of Colorado. Very strange. I had a bad feeling about the program. I decided to rank it low on my list, and I am very happy that I did so. It seemed the residents that I met on interview day were very worried and stressed out about some unknown thing. Also, many residents said that the transition between second and third year was "very hard." Just too strange for my taste, and I trusted my intuition, and I'm very happy at the program I listed as #1. Also, residents seem to work a lot of hours for a psych program.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm from Denver, and I had an enormous amount of pressure from my parents and in-laws to rank Colorado #1 on my match list. I wanted and tried very hard to like the program. There were a couple things that I couldn't get over: #1 - look back to about 5 years ago, they closed their psychiatric unit at the colorado anschutz center. They were having serious money problems. This was a red flag for me. #2 - You do most of your clinical work at a community hospital (Denver General), and it seemed to me you were being trained by community psychiatrists working there. I might be wrong, but the psychiatrist that we met there that was working there was just a hired psychiatrist to work at the hospital. Thus, you're being trained by only mildly affiliated psychiatrist to the University of Colorado. Very strange. I had a bad feeling about the program. I decided to rank it low on my list, and I am very happy that I did so. It seemed the residents that I met on interview day were very worried and stressed out about some unknown thing. Also, many residents said that the transition between second and third year was "very hard." Just too strange for my taste, and I trusted my intuition, and I'm very happy at the program I listed as #1. Also, residents seem to work a lot of hours for a psych program.

Huh, I think Denver Health seemed like one of the real strengths of the program. And I think the attendings there are probably faculty in the program, so it's not like they're not academic attendings. The university inpatient unit did close, though, which I guess would suggest some money issues and maybe some lack of respect for psychiatry in the university as a whole. It seems like the program adapted pretty well to that closure, though, due to their other sites. I'd be more worried about being at a program dependent on one university site that might close.

On that note, I'm wondering if we're facing the age of more university sites closing. Colorado and Oklahoma are the two I know of. Are there more?

 

[Toonces813]

On the last ACGME survey this program was "noncompliant" on several measures of resident satisfaction, including perceived adequacy of supervision, anonymity of faculty evaluations, and perception that the faculty care about resident education. Instead of working to improve these things, the program director met with the classes and coached them on proper ways to answer the questions on the next ACGME survey.....

 

[digitlnoize]

On the last ACGME survey this program was "noncompliant" on several measures of resident satisfaction, including perceived adequacy of supervision, anonymity of faculty evaluations, and perception that the faculty care about resident education. Instead of working to improve these things, the program director met with the classes and coached them on proper ways to answer the questions on the next ACGME survey.....

Seriously? Why do we not have access to this survey data?!? As an applicant, this would be invaluable, and would force programs to be accountable to their residents.

 

[psychphan]

On the last ACGME survey this program was "noncompliant" on several measures of resident satisfaction, including perceived adequacy of supervision, anonymity of faculty evaluations, and perception that the faculty care about resident education. Instead of working to improve these things, the program director met with the classes and coached them on proper ways to answer the questions on the next ACGME survey.....

Where are you getting this information. I'm certainly not one for hearsay and rumors but if I could see concrete evidence of this (or some of the other concrete facts about violations,etc) that would really be beneficial as I would likely cancel my interview and save $500.

 

[psychphan]

I just got my itinerary for my interview at Denver, and judging from the email it looks like I won't even be meeting the PD. I find this very strange, does anyone know what's going on with this or has anyone else had an interview day when the PD wasn't even there? I don't know how someone can be expected to assess a program if they don't even meet the program leader. Feel free to PM if anyone knows anything and doesn't want to share publicly.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I just got my itinerary for my interview at Denver, and judging from the email it looks like I won't even be meeting the PD. I find this very strange, does anyone know what's going on with this or has anyone else had an interview day when the PD wasn't even there? I don't know how someone can be expected to assess a program if they don't even meet the program leader. Feel free to PM if anyone knows anything and doesn't want to share publicly.

When I interviewed there a few years ago, I think the PD and an assistant/associate PD traded interview days, so about half of the people who interviewed did not meet the PD. I guess I did meet the PD at almost all of my interviews, so maybe that's a little atypical. It might suggest that leadership is divided up among other people more there.

 

[Goodlife123]

I remember reading this forum and being equally confused/concerned about these "rumors" as others have mentioned, especially as I personally found my interview experience to be very positive. I found the residents to be intelligent, engaging, friendly, and excited about the field of psychiatry. I liked the faculty I met as well as the opportunities that UC seemed to offer, so I went with my gut and put Colorado as my top choice.

I cant speak to how the program was in the past, but as a second year at UC I can speak about how it is now, First of all, I couldnt be happier with my decision. My impressions of the residents in the program were confirmed and extends to the other specialties I have rotated with as well. As a generalization, Colorado attracts mostly laid back, intelligent residents who will work hard in the hospital but also take advantage of their free time. If I have to switch a call or find someone to help cover a shift, I can count on my co-residents to pick it up knowing that I'll pay it back. For residents that have had personal problems, the program has been very supportive. I spend a fair amount of time outside of work doing trivia, happy hours, karaoke, sporting events, etc. with my classmates as well as the medicine and neuro residents that I rotated with.

Denver Health
I read a post detailing how the University Hospital no longer has an inpatient unit and the community hospital Denver Health was brought into question. Frankly, Denver Health is a fantastic place to work and one of the strongest hospitals to learn at. It is the main public hospital in Denver and you get opportunities to rotate in the PES, consult with the jail unit, as well as inpatient wards. If you like very psychotic patients, this is the place to be! The attendings are excellent to work with as they are passionate, good with working with residents, and make a point of teaching. This has been amplified by the chief residents setting aside time for weekly didactics as well as a journal club. You have opportunities to go to court to testify as an expert witness. The atmosphere is very positive and we work closely with the nursing staff and social workers who save us loads of work. Interns do a month of night float at DH and it is a tough month but you learn a ton and come out of it a much more confident resident. I have never had a situation where I did not have appropriate supervision.

We also rotate at the VA for consults and inpatient and University Hospital for consults and clinic. This is getting lengthy so if anyone has questions about those I'm happy to answer.

Things to consider
There are 3 sites we rotate at, each about 10-15 minutes from each other (basically in a line). Most residents will live close to the center of the 3 hospitals (by the VA) so the commute will ~15 minutes if not at the VA. Another thing to consider is you will work hard in this program. There are psych residencies I have heard from friends where you can coast by, and this is not the case at UC. We do 4 months of medicine wards and you stay busy during the psych months. The two months of neuro are pretty easy. That being said, I did not hit over 80 hrs on my med rotations, partially because I had fantastic medicine residents. On psych, I average 50-60 hours/week but Im also efficient. Call averages to about one day every other weekend while on psych rotations intern year (no call on neuro or medicine), then as a second year one day every third weekend. On medicine and neuro I was treated as if i were a medicine or neuro intern and found the attendings and residents to be friendly and happy to teach.

Our PD is strong and a good person to have as a liaison if you need someone to support you. Her personality fits with her engineering background and she does not come off as warm and fuzzy as other PD's did at places I interviewed, but she clearly cares for us and has our backs.

Research
Aside from some posters/case presentations, I havent pursued a lot of research yet but can say there are ample opportunities. We have a research track (info on the website) and can get strong mentorship. It doesnt hurt also that our chair is the chief editor of the AJP.

Other tracks to consider are the psychotherapy track and child/adolescent track. Both are very popular and are flexible, so you can join/leave them in your second or third year if you have a change of heart.

Denver
Fantastic place to live. Lots of young professionals with common interests. If you like the outdoors and good beer, this place is nirvana. Most specialties have ski houses that residents will pitch in for and rent for the season. Adventure races, outdoor festivals, kickball/volleyball teams, microbrews, red rocks concerts, jazz in the park are all lots of fun. Overall I find people in Denver to be very friendly, which is interesting given there are a lot of transplants from other states that come for the mountains.

Feel free to PM me with questions.

 

[Fenster]

That being said, I did not hit over 80 hrs on my med rotations, partially because I had fantastic medicine residents.

Isn't that also, ahem, the rule?

On psych, I average 50-60 hours/week but Im also efficient.

Since efficiency is a relative term, how many hours a week do your co-residents average then?

 

[whopper]

The problem with non-anonymous bashing is the critic will become the new whipping boy in the program, especially if the criticisms are true.

Even bashing the program anonymously can be risky. If there's a program with only about a dozen, maybe 20 people in it, it starts becoming not too hard to figure out who the basher was by their intonation, types of complaints and the more detailed, the easier it is to ID them.

If I heard rumors that sounded like they had some validity, I'd steer clear from the program unless there was no other choice due to the lack of solid and varied sources. Bad programs will never be fully upfront with their weaknesses because they want to sell themselves to their applicants so they can get some fool to do their scutwork. Residents either can't complain openly or do so at extreme risk especially if in a malignant program.

I've criticized some programs but tried to either not name the program but drop hints as to what it was, or try to be over-diplomatic about it. The most open I was in criticizing a program, I didn't mention the program, but stated all the problems I saw, then in a separate thread gave enough hints so an applicant would know which program it was without naming it.

Psychiatry is a small world. That same forensic psychiatrist I saw giving hired gun statements is now a PD in a fellowship, (wow wouldn't you want to be his fellow!?). A PD of mine told me that one of his former advisors emotionally abused him and he had to see the shmuck every few months because they both ended up as PDs in the same state system though at different locations.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

On the last ACGME survey this program was "noncompliant" on several measures of resident satisfaction, including perceived adequacy of supervision, anonymity of faculty evaluations, and perception that the faculty care about resident education. Instead of working to improve these things, the program director met with the classes and coached them on proper ways to answer the questions on the next ACGME survey.....

So the ACGME surveys are weird -- if you answer "sometimes" for anything, it's counted as a negative answer, and I think most residents everywhere could answer "sometimes" for almost everything. My whole university system has an educational program meant to address this, so residents in all fields get a talk maybe a little like the Colorado residents did (if this report is true). It's not quite as creepy as it might seem.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Bah I should probably stay away from this thread seeing as I'm one of the 'rumors'. Just wanted to restate my offer to put you in touch with some people who I'm friends with, who I trained with, who I still talk to, who liked their experience and could give you their thoughts on the program. Some of those stayed for child fellowship and could speak to that as well (they're in their final year of child fellowship).

I'll also say I'm on pretty good terms with everyone at this point. My old attendings helped me find a new job and my old PD personally called me on the phone within hours after I sent her an email about looking to continue my training elsewhere to make sure she did everything she could to help out.

As for Denver Health? Great experience. The CL training there is exceptional and the director of Psychiatry is awesome. I learned a ton from my psych ED attendings as well. It was also a genuinely good experience to take call that involved adult, child, and consults. I'm a better physician for it. And the chance to do pediatrics and child psych at Denver Children's is great as well.