Columbia (OOS) vs. UPenn (OOS)

[77tomoyowww]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hi everyone!

I am very lucky to have been accepted to both Columbia and UPenn. Both schools are great, but I am having a hard time making my decision.

School 1: Columbia​

Pros:

• P/F: This is the most important factor for me because I tend to get anxious about grades, so a P/F system would help me maintain healthier mental health.
• High Specialization Rate
• Vibe: I had a great interview experience at Columbia. The faculty and students were very welcoming! Also, with the P/F system, I feel like the environment might be less competitive.
• Friend in NYC: I have a close friend living in NYC. Although she’s not in Manhattan, it’s nice to have someone I know in the city.

Cons:

• Big Metro City: Having lived in the suburbs for most of my life, I would need time to adjust to the bustling urban environment.
• High Rent: Rent is super expensive, around $2,500 a month.
• Public Transportation: I’m not used to using public transportation like subways or buses because I am used to driving.

School 2: UPenn​

Pros:

• Specialization Rate: I’ve heard UPenn has the best orthodontics program?
• Less Metro: Philadelphia is less metro than NYC, and I would feel more comfortable driving there because the traffic is less intense.
• Better Pre-Clinical?: UPenn doesn’t have a medical curriculum like Columbia, so I’ve heard their pre-clinical training might be better.
• Rent: less expensive than NYC, about $1,400 a month

Cons:

• Graded System: As I mentioned above, I get anxious about my grades easily, so I am really worried about my mental health in dental school.
• Safety: I’ve heard Philadelphia is more dangerous than NYC.
• Vibe: My interview experience at UPenn wasn’t the best. The faculty and students were not very friendly, but I might be a bit biased.

Summary​

I’m leaning slightly toward Columbia because of the P/F grading system. Both schools have expensive tuition and are far from home. I don’t have any scholarships, so I will need to borrow loans or consider the military program, with some financial support from my parents.

Both schools have strong specialization rates, and I’m particularly interested in orthodontics. My interview experience at Columbia was much better—the faculty and students were friendly—while my experience at UPenn was less positive. However, I might be biased here, so I’d appreciate hearing your thoughts about the vibes and cultures at both schools.

I’ve spent most of my life in the suburbs after living in a big metro city when I was in elementary school. I’d need to adjust to either NYC or Philadelphia, but I’ve heard driving in Philadelphia is much more manageable, which is an important factor for me.

I’ll have a chance to visit both schools this month, but I’d like to get a more thorough understanding now to help make my decision sooner.

Any suggestions or advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you! 🙂

 

[JacquesVallee]

Both schools have expensive tuition and are far from home. I don’t have any scholarships, so I will need to borrow loans or consider the military program, with some financial support from my parents

Any chance you got into your state school? Penn and Columbia are just so expensive.

 

[77tomoyowww]

Any chance you got into your state school? Penn and Columbia are just so expensive.

yes! It is far from my home as well, but the tuition is much cheaper (I understand this is a big pro). However, I don't really like the school environment and the city (very few resources and no activities), and I can't see myself living there for four years.

 

[JacquesVallee]

yes! It is far from my home as well, but the tuition is much cheaper (I understand this is a big pro). However, I don't really like the school environment and the city (very few resources and no activities), and I can't see myself living there for four years.

Dental school is a short blip in your life. If you attend your state school you actually have a chance of paying off your loans. You want to do Ortho. This means 2-3 years of compounding interest on your loans during residency with possible tuition. You could be looking at close to 7 figure debt levels if you go Penn or Columbia. Grad Plus loans are now at 9.08% interest. That's impossible to pay off without relying on the government. You simply have no grasp on what it's like to pay off this level of debt.

 

[macsak]

yes! It is far from my home as well, but the tuition is much cheaper (I understand this is a big pro). However, I don't really like the school environment and the city (very few resources and no activities), and I can't see myself living there for four years.

go to DCG...

edited by macsak for misspelling...

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Both schools have strong specialization rates

This is because of “selection bias” in the students attracted to these schools. You can absolutely specialize from any dental school.

In fact, it can actually hurt your specialty application if there are that many people applying from your school. The year I applied to peds, I was told by another applicant from UPenn on the interview trail that 1/4 to 1/3 of her class was applying to peds. My school was less than 1/10. Some residency programs, mine included, aren’t just going to invite 10+ students from a single school. They have a limited number of invites to hand out.

And don’t forget, many residency programs charge tuition. Going into something like ortho can easily add between $200,000 and $400,000 to your student loans. Let’s say you go to UPenn for dental school and follow on there for ortho residency, you’d owe around $600,000 for dental school and $400,000 for residency. That’s not hyperbole, I just looked up their tuition numbers. You would owe $1,000,000 or more in student loans before you even see your first patient outside of school! That is absolutely insane!

Go to the cheapest school you get into.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You simply have no grasp on what it's like to pay off this level of debt.

Every single predent needs to hear this.

Dental school is just a few short years, but the financial ramifications will haunt you for decades…

Big Hoss

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I went to Penn. I think Penn has a much better program than Columbia. That being said it is by far the wisest thing you can do to go to your state school if it is significantly cheaper. You will thank yourself the rest of your life. The loans you take to go to a more expensive school collect interest. When the loan value is that high it becomes very difficult to pay off. You want to get out of debt and get money invested for you and collecting interest as soon as possible. There is no point in paying all that money to be an orthodontist if you are BROKE.

 

[JacquesVallee]

I am going to go against what everyone is saying here... especially because I can just tell you are so excited about your acceptances to two top schools! You worked so hard to get into these ivy league schools, that is something a few people can say they have accomplished. I say go to Columbia, you loved your interview and seem so excited. Dental school is expensive, we all know that you should spend your money on a school you dream of going to, not a school where you settle because its cheaper. congrats on everything!

The reason people are saying to go to a state school is we all have experience paying back student loans as practicing dentists. You sound like a pre-dent to me. No practicing dentist I know would EVER recommend dentistry for 600k. If the only options were Penn or Columbia, I would actually say not to attend either and to not become a dentist.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I am going to go against what everyone is saying here... especially because I can just tell you are so excited about your acceptances to two top schools! You worked so hard to get into these ivy league schools, that is something a few people can say they have accomplished. I say go to Columbia, you loved your interview and seem so excited. Dental school is expensive, we all know that you should spend your money on a school you dream of going to, not a school where you settle because its cheaper. congrats on everything!

I turned down both Columbia and UPenn to attend a state school and have absolutely zero regrets.

Big Hoss

 

[macsak]

I turned down both Columbia and UPenn to attend a state school and have absolutely zero regrets.

Big Hoss

but but but but but "prestigious"

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

but but but but but "prestigious"

UPenn (not to be confused with Penn State) students driving to campus be like…

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Let’s say you go to UPenn for dental school and follow on there for ortho residency, you’d owe around $600,000 for dental school and $400,000 for residency. That’s not hyperbole, I just looked up their tuition numbers. You would owe $1,000,000 or more in student loans before you even see your first patient outside of school!

The really sad part is I didn’t bother calculating accrued interest. Your grand total would probably be well over $1,500,000. That’s one and a half million dollars! With accrued interest, that $150,000 you borrowed 1st year will have become close to $250,000 when you finish residency. Just thinking about that makes me nauseous, and they’re not even my loans!

Big Hoss

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

The really sad part is I didn’t bother calculating accrued interest. Your grand total would probably be well over $1,500,000. That’s one and a half million dollars! With accrued interest, that $150,000 you borrowed 1st year will have become close to $250,000 when you finish residency. Just thinking about that makes me nauseous, and they’re not even my loans!

Big Hoss

It’s insane. A lot of my classmates had school paid by their parents or the military, but those who took out full loans and pursued residency have accepted life long debt.

I mention it all of the time on here and people don’t like to think about the numbers, but if you look at the cost, the interest accrued in school, and the interest accrued in residency…it adds up!

The best thing you can do is limit your debt, pay it off, and invest aggressively when young. I went to Penn, but commuted 3 hours per day to do so while limiting my debt. My classmates thought I was crazy, but I paid off my loans in a year and have hundreds of thousands invested working FOR me not against me while in my 20s. I can’t imagine being $600k+ in debt. The job market for ortho isn’t what it used to be either.

OP, just trust us on this one. None of your patients will care where you went to school. If your lifelong dream involved going to one of these schools and being broke the rest of your life, do it, but if being broke wasn’t a part of your dream go to the cheapest school.

 

[mjzccle19701]

The really sad part is I didn’t bother calculating accrued interest. Your grand total would probably be well over $1,500,000. That’s one and a half million dollars! With accrued interest, that $150,000 you borrowed 1st year will have become close to $250,000 when you finish residency. Just thinking about that makes me nauseous, and they’re not even my loans!

Big Hoss

Out of curiosity, how does this level of student loan debt affect your ability to buy a home or to buy a practice? Do the banks see 1.5 million student loans and think it’s okay to shell out another million dollars? Or is the debt to income ratio too much and makes it impossible? Also, does the lifelong debt just go away after you die? Or does it get dispersed to your children or other family members?

 

[macsak]

Out of curiosity, how does this level of student loan debt affect your ability to buy a home or to buy a practice? Do the banks see 1.5 million student loans and think it’s okay to shell out another million dollars? Or is the debt to income ratio too much and makes it impossible? Also, does the lifelong debt just go away after you die? Or does it get dispersed to your children or other family members?

look up "usc orthodontist owes over $1million"...

 

[macsak]

Out of curiosity, how does this level of student loan debt affect your ability to buy a home or to buy a practice? Do the banks see 1.5 million student loans and think it’s okay to shell out another million dollars? Or is the debt to income ratio too much and makes it impossible? Also, does the lifelong debt just go away after you die? Or does it get dispersed to your children or other family members?

student loans go away if you die...

 

[JacquesVallee]

The best thing you can do is limit your debt, pay it off, and invest aggressively when young. I went to Penn, but commuted 3 hours per day to do so while limiting my debt. My classmates thought I was crazy, but I paid off my loans in a year and have hundreds of thousands invested working FOR me not against me while in my 20s. I can’t imagine being $600k+ in debt. The job market for ortho isn’t what it used to be either.

This is solid advice. I chose my state school over Penn and Columbia. Left dental school with about 200k in debt. Then, moved to the middle of nowhere (which I absolutely hated) to make a high income to pay off my student loans. Now, I'm going back to residency to specialize in a field I really enjoy. Had I gone to Penn or Columbia, there's a 0% chance I'd be specializing with that amount of debt.

OP, this level of debt is life altering. It can ruin the rest of your life. Please, do not go into 600k in debt for a job which pays 120k.

 

[mjzccle19701]

look up "usc orthodontist owes over $1million"...

The articles make it seem like the orthodontist is doing fine. They have kids and a house. As long as they can pay the income tax on the loan after 25 years it seems like they will be okay.

 

[JacquesVallee]

make it seem like

seems like

These words are really carrying your post.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

The articles make it seem like the orthodontist is doing fine. They have kids and a house. As long as they can pay the income tax on the loan after 25 years it seems like they will be okay.

So think about this. “As long as they can pay the income tax on the loan after 25 years”

What does that mean? That means for 25 YEARS you’re going to be limited by the weight of all that debt. That means until you are over 50 years old you will be in debt. That means for 25 years a part of your income every month will be taken away to pay off loans.

Then, when you are 50, have children, are preparing for retirement, saving for college education, etc. you are going to owe INCOME TAX (so 35%?! 37%?!) on all that is forgiven. If you are $1 million in the hole and owe 37% of that you’ll owe $370,000 in additional taxes that year! Plus the 25 years of payments you’ve been making on the loan.


Or the alternative option is to limit your debt, pay off your loans quickly, and be free for the rest of your life.

 

[macsak]

The articles make it seem like the orthodontist is doing fine. They have kids and a house. As long as they can pay the income tax on the loan after 25 years it seems like they will be okay.

i've met his brother
the wife's family is rich...

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Out of curiosity, how does this level of student loan debt affect your ability to buy a home or to buy a practice? Do the banks see 1.5 million student loans and think it’s okay to shell out another million dollars? Or is the debt to income ratio too much and makes it impossible? Also, does the lifelong debt just go away after you die? Or does it get dispersed to your children or other family members?

Why wouldn’t they consider it? It’s an enormous financial obligation that’s tied to you.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

A lot of my classmates had school paid by their parents

If my family had that kind of money, I wouldn’t be spending all day staring inside other people’s mouths…

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

If my family had that kind of money, I wouldn’t be spending all day staring inside other people’s mouths…

Big Hoss

Are you telling me that dentistry isn’t your passion, like it is for all the predents writing that in their personal statement?

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Are you telling me that dentistry isn’t your passion, like it is for all the predents writing that in their personal statement?

Big Hoss

No, it most certainly is not. It is a job. If dentistry is your “passion,” you need therapy…

Big Hoss

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Educational Debt

Average Dental School Debt [2024]: Student Loan Statistics

Read about the average amount of debt a student is left with after dental school and discover the cost of each dental school in the U.S.

educationdata.org

From other dental students:

Dental Student Debt | ASDA

lists a few articles including

Contour February 2022: MANAGEMENT + LEADERSHIP: Escaping the debt monster: Your action plan for minimizing and repaying debt

GROWING UP, EVERY KID HAD A MONSTER UNDER THE BED. Some would hide under the covers and pray for the safety of the morning sun. Others, a little braver, would …

digitaleditions.walsworthprintgroup.com

 

[sumin5924]

The articles make it seem like the orthodontist is doing fine. They have kids and a house. As long as they can pay the income tax on the loan after 25 years it seems like they will be okay.

I guess paying $1.6 million for a $600k education after 25 years on a $225k salary is doing just fine?