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Columbia 'prestige'
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is this a serious post?
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I am more familiar with west coast programs as I have not done any training on the east coast but from what I have heard Columbia stands right beside the programs you have mentioned. Easily the best program in NY from what I understand. Your post is not ridiculous (as implied by the previous comment). It is important to know as much as you can about an institution, and the institution's reputation is critical to securing a good fellowship position---don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
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Of course it is ridiculous. It is a stupid question.
"Hey geeeee, guys, ummmmm, is UCSF considered a good program? Duuuuuhr, I don't know . . ."
It's like showing up here and posting stat like: "Hey guis!!1! I'm really, really worried about matching LOL!!! I'm honored EVERYTHING, I'm AOA, I got a 287 on step one, I'm 1st author on a paper that made it into the NEJM. Do I have a shot?!?!11?
"Give me a ****ing break . . .
And if you think your chances of matching into a "good" fellowship from an IM residency at MGH, UCSF, or Columbia is significantly different, you are a *****.
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I agree that this is an important issue. Don't listen to those who criticize you. They probably couldn't get into a top prestige residency so they don't know what the difference is.
As an honest assessment, I don't think you can compare Columbia's IM program prestige to the other ones you mentioned. The others are all top programs in the nation, and if you go to them you will match any fellowship you want basically just by doing residency at one of these places. Columbia is definitely a couple tiers away. It was essentially run like a community program until a few years back, and a lot of people still view it that way as a glorified community program. The location is great, but you will have difficulty getting a good fellowship coming out of there unless you work really hard. Something like geriatrics or rheumatology will be pretty manageable but you will have trouble matching cards/gi/hem onc in a desirable location from Columbia. You can see just looking at the match lists, Columbia doesn't do as well as the other programs, and a lot of the Columbia match list ends up in regions like the Dakotas/Wyoming. Columbia is still a solid program in a good location, but it's considered by most people in the know to be well below Cornell, Mount Sinai, and the top NYC programs, and even farther behind the top prestige programs in the country like UCSF, John Hopkins, MGH. People won't likely say it to your face, but they will not be as impressed by Columbia as they would for law school or undergrad (Obama went there, you know).
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oh you got me . . .
A couple tiers away, you say? Why don't you give out the official tier ranking then.
Yep, you are correct, if you go to Columbia you will be relegated by fate to only finding a fellowship in Wyoming 🙄
You are a ***** and I hope for your sake not a single program finds out who you are because if anyone is paying attention to this board, I would imagine they would find the ignorance, not to mention the elitism, in your statement more than a little shocking and horrifying.
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Different strokes for different folks... but go to a residency program where you fit (it's just like college admissions over again). I would be wary of ranking programs based on a magazine. When you are on your deathbed, nobody is going to care where you went to medical school or residency... rather what you did for the suffering.
By the way,
US World News Best Medical Schools Specialty Rankings: Internal Medicine (2009)
Columbia # 9
I'm posting because this thread is so amusing! I cannot believe what I'm reading...but, hey, it's SDN so I guess I shouldn't be shocked.
In the interests of objectivity (and so that I can suppress my desire to make snide remarks), I will just post Columbia's absolutely "terrible" match list (as obtained from a simple look at their website) from 2009:
2009
Pulmonary Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at NYU
Gastroenterology Fellowship at NYU
Cardiology Fellowship at Stony Brook
Oncology Fellowship at U Penn
ID Fellowship at University of Washington
Cardiology Fellowship at Mount Sinai
ID Fellowship at Cornell
Rheumatology Fellowship at Hospital for Special Surgery
Pulmonary Fellowship at University of Washington (2010)
Cardiology Fellowship at Johns Hopkins
Geriatric Fellowship at UCSF
Renal Fellowship at Cornell
Cardiology Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at UCSF
Robert Wood Johnson Fellowship at Yale
Endocrinology Fellowship at Mount Sinai
Renal Fellowship at Harvard
Cardiology Fellowship at Brigham and Womens Hospital
Oncology Fellowship at CUMC
Oncology Fellowship at CUMC
Gastroenterology Fellowship at CUMC
Gastroenterology Fellowship at U Penn
ID Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at Mount Sinai
Cardiology Fellowship at NYU
Cardiology Fellowship at Northwestern
Infectious Disease Fellowship at Vanderbilt (2010)
Pulmonary Fellowship at U Penn
Cardiology Fellowship at Georgetown
Pulmonary Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at CUMC
General Medicine Fellowship at UCSF
Oncology Fellowship at Sloan Kettering
In the interests of objectivity (and so that I can suppress my desire to make snide remarks), I will just post Columbia's absolutely "terrible" match list (as obtained from a simple look at their website) from 2009:
2009
Pulmonary Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at NYU
Gastroenterology Fellowship at NYU
Cardiology Fellowship at Stony Brook
Oncology Fellowship at U Penn
ID Fellowship at University of Washington
Cardiology Fellowship at Mount Sinai
ID Fellowship at Cornell
Rheumatology Fellowship at Hospital for Special Surgery
Pulmonary Fellowship at University of Washington (2010)
Cardiology Fellowship at Johns Hopkins
Geriatric Fellowship at UCSF
Renal Fellowship at Cornell
Cardiology Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at UCSF
Robert Wood Johnson Fellowship at Yale
Endocrinology Fellowship at Mount Sinai
Renal Fellowship at Harvard
Cardiology Fellowship at Brigham and Womens Hospital
Oncology Fellowship at CUMC
Oncology Fellowship at CUMC
Gastroenterology Fellowship at CUMC
Gastroenterology Fellowship at U Penn
ID Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at Mount Sinai
Cardiology Fellowship at NYU
Cardiology Fellowship at Northwestern
Infectious Disease Fellowship at Vanderbilt (2010)
Pulmonary Fellowship at U Penn
Cardiology Fellowship at Georgetown
Pulmonary Fellowship at CUMC
Cardiology Fellowship at CUMC
General Medicine Fellowship at UCSF
Oncology Fellowship at Sloan Kettering
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He appeared quite serious from my perspective. If satirical, then he got me.
The response was so over the top ridiculous that maybe I should have suspected extremely dry humor, but with a quote like this: "Columbia is still a solid program in a good location, but it's considered by most people in the know to be well below Cornell, Mount Sinai, and the top NYC programs, and even farther behind the top prestige programs in the country like UCSF, John Hopkins, MGH. People won't likely say it to your face, but they will not be as impressed by Columbia as they would for law school or undergrad" . . . it's hard to hear the joke.
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Also as a related question, if he was serious, does that then make you the *****?
Probably an important point we should attempt to clear up.
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Hey! Not a single one of those fellowships is in Wyoming!!1!
We all get pretty defensive when it comes to something we care about. Nonetheless, I *know* he is sarcastic so I'm not the ***** here. 😉
The sheer ridiculousness of the post should have been the first sign.
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I love the internet 
I think this thread is done.
I think this thread is done.
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That was definitely sarcastic...LOL!
My impression is that Columbia is probably considered the "top" NYC IM program, though I'm not from NYC. However, there are several other well known IM programs in the city, and some of those might be better for the OP if he/she has a particular mentor or research or specialty interest in mind. I think in general if the OP wants to do fellowship in the northeast, then going to a good program in the NE that is well known would be helpful. If he/she strays out of the area, then would only recommend doing so for another well known program (UC San Fran, maybe WashU or Duke, etc.). There tends to be regionalism in picking subspecialty fellows, perhaps because faculty within the same geographic regions tend to know each other, whereas they may not know other faculty @some institution several states away or on the opposite coast.
My impression is that Columbia is probably considered the "top" NYC IM program, though I'm not from NYC. However, there are several other well known IM programs in the city, and some of those might be better for the OP if he/she has a particular mentor or research or specialty interest in mind. I think in general if the OP wants to do fellowship in the northeast, then going to a good program in the NE that is well known would be helpful. If he/she strays out of the area, then would only recommend doing so for another well known program (UC San Fran, maybe WashU or Duke, etc.). There tends to be regionalism in picking subspecialty fellows, perhaps because faculty within the same geographic regions tend to know each other, whereas they may not know other faculty @some institution several states away or on the opposite coast.
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ROTFL! Someone from this community program matched for Cards at the Brighams and UCSF!
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I thought it was serious, too...But isn't it kinda sad that there are plenty of serious, similar posts out there on SDN?...so you can't really tell a lot of the time ha ha ha.
And what about the OP? Joke or not?
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Probably just trolling.
Although the above comment about how Columbia for residency wasn't as prestigious as undergrad or law school was pretty good. 🙂
Although the above comment about how Columbia for residency wasn't as prestigious as undergrad or law school was pretty good. 🙂
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I think (s)he got u big time jdh71 LOL ...
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My post was absolutely serious. I'm sorry that this forum has become a place where one is belittled for asking questions they are nervous about asking people at the programs themselves.
Since this post, I've talked to people at columbia, MGH, and UCSF. The truth is, many feel that columbia doesn't offer what BW, MGH, and UCSF can in terms of administrative support, security of fellowship placement in a 'top-five' program, and breadth of 'extracurricular' opportunities (e.g. research in health policy or community health). A columbia R3 confirmed for me that many people rank columbia over the other programs I mentioned because they love NYC or for family/partner reasons.
To those who look down upon me for my post, I apologize if I sounded elitist. But I'm planning on ranking those 4 programs top on my list, and 'prestige' is a factor -- i'm only kidding myself if i say it's not.
Since this post, I've talked to people at columbia, MGH, and UCSF. The truth is, many feel that columbia doesn't offer what BW, MGH, and UCSF can in terms of administrative support, security of fellowship placement in a 'top-five' program, and breadth of 'extracurricular' opportunities (e.g. research in health policy or community health). A columbia R3 confirmed for me that many people rank columbia over the other programs I mentioned because they love NYC or for family/partner reasons.
To those who look down upon me for my post, I apologize if I sounded elitist. But I'm planning on ranking those 4 programs top on my list, and 'prestige' is a factor -- i'm only kidding myself if i say it's not.
If you rank Columbia lower because it does not offer you enough opportunities...or you don't like its fellowship match rate...or you don't like the administrative structure --- that is TOTALLY different than your original question re:"prestige". I think ranking it lower because it isn't the best fit for you is valid. However, if you loved Columbia's program and thought it would be a great match, I think many people would say it would be a shame to rank them lower simply because of a perception that it is not "prestigious" enough. So maybe I'm a sucker for still writing in this thread - but for the record: Columbia is prestigious - so you can use those other factors you listed to make your decision.
By the way, I'm curious, what are your ultimate career goals that are driving you to be in the most prestigious program (if there is such a thing)? What does your advisor/mentor tell you?
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That is great research you have done there. I think that is what a lot of people are overlooking on this thread is that people love Columbia for it's NYC location. A lot of people who are posting on this thread have probably never even visited NYC (and might not even know where Columbia is, LOL!) so don't understand why someone would choose Columbia over more prestigious programs, but getting it straight from an R3 at Columbia really shows how great NYC is and clears everything up. I think it also shows that you are very serious about selecting the place that is best for you. Good work!👍
So just to review:
People love NYC.
Location: Columbia > UCSF = MGH = BW
Prestige: UCSF = MGH = BW >>> SUNY Downstate > Columbia = Maimonides
Like I think we have both been saying, just in different words, there is nothing wrong with Columbia if you like that area (NYC!), but it's not to be confused with a prestigious program such as the UCSF, the MGH, the BW, or even the SUNY Downstate.
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Seriously tfom8, when I read the new post on this thread this morning/last night, I was hoping that you visit it and put up your opinion here. Quite simply because no one can clarify concepts as well as you. Hence, I was elated when I logged back in (to actually suggest you post something here right now) and saw that you had left your stamp 😉.
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This thread is cracking me up! I am pretty sure you will match at a great fellowship regardless of whether you graduate from harvard or columbia! It seems odd that someone intelligent enough to have the opportunity to interview at both programs will think otherwise!
And by the way, whats wrong with SUNY downstate! Brooklyn is the place to be, manhattan sucks!
And by the way, whats wrong with SUNY downstate! Brooklyn is the place to be, manhattan sucks!
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This thread is cracking me up as well.
Best tip: Go to the programs that invite you for interviews if interested in that program... and then rank the programs you like the best! If you're going for prestige... hope you have a humbling experience
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Talking about "top 5" programs and about wanting to really really really be there, I am not really aware which programs are in the top 5 in anesthesia, but check out reviews of MGH anesthesia on scutwork. Of course, scutwork reviews have to be taken with a pinch of salt, but there were 4 posters within 2 weeks that dissed that program majorly.
Anesthesia? Huh?
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yeah... someone needs to close this thread
I agree, this thread should be closed down. The Anesthesia example was just used to mention that regardless of the prestige of a place, sometimes things may not be as good as you thought they would (again, I dont know where MGH stands in Anesthesia "prestige" rankings, I just found it strange 4 people gave really bad reviews about it on scutwork in a period of 2 weeks).
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I have a question about the reputation of Columbia (not about prestige, fortunately) but of their reputation of being really hardcore and "malignant". Not sure where these rumors are based on but I was wondering if there's anyone out there who can comment on this and if anything has changed recently in their program
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To shed light on issues regarding just wanting to be in a prestigious program without seeing it for yourself, and the confusion it can lead to unless you see it for yourself:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=362360
Of course we're all going to see the program for ourselves--that's what the interview is! But the truth is that no one knows what it's really like until you're in it, which is why talking to residents helps, but still doesn't tell you how you're going to like a program.
As far as prestige is concerned-- no one choosing a program just on that. It's a factor in many people's minds (everyone on SDN has likely thought about it for college, med school, or residency at some point). No one is saying one should choose a residency based on prestige alone - and i think you could talk to people at top residencies and be hard-pressed to find someone who did. But it is fair to consider it among the many aspects of our decision.
As far as prestige is concerned-- no one choosing a program just on that. It's a factor in many people's minds (everyone on SDN has likely thought about it for college, med school, or residency at some point). No one is saying one should choose a residency based on prestige alone - and i think you could talk to people at top residencies and be hard-pressed to find someone who did. But it is fair to consider it among the many aspects of our decision.
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I think the thing that saddens me the most about this whole thing is that you are even being considered at these programs when you appear to not have the appropriate board score qualifications.
from a previous post of yours:
Board scores aren't everything certainly. But that is subpar.
dreadpirateroberts
Agreed. Unless the rest of his application is stellar, the only reason he is getting invited to the "top" programs is because of the medical school he attends. Goes to show the smartest (if you correlate board scores with smartness) are not always the ones at the "top" programs and that there are students with sub-par scores at the "top" programs (by virtue of pedigree).
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👍
Pedigree opens doors... but if you keep your head down and work hard, you get far in life... you might just knock down a couple of pretentious doors along the way
👍
Pedigree opens doors... but if you keep your head down and work hard, you get far in life... you might just knock down a couple of pretentious doors along the way
Very true.
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The horn-rimmed glasses will be helpful for droplets and random spray, but I don't think the tight pants and flannel will be comfortable in the hospital. Also, the unmatched knowledge of underground bands will not be much use against multidrug resistant klebsiella...
Again, amazing how a simple question that one is nervous about asking in 'real life' - comparing the 'brand name' of a few top schools - can lead people to tear you apart, bringing up your board scores, intentions, and intelligence. I truly am amazed at the heartlessness.
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the world is a cold cruel place . . .
seriously, try and little outside and objective feedback, you come off as an elitist douchebag . . . you see a-holes exist, occasionaly you actually run into one, but if you run into 4 or 5 in a single thread, then maybe it's time to rethink who is actually being the a-hole . . .
introspection - it is your friend
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yeah... someone needs to close this thread
Moderators on the forum?
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The dreadpirateroberts leaves no survivors.
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Dear mods,
I read through this thread as RMD referenced it in another thread, although the word prestige kept me away from the beginning. Y'all should have known better.
Anyhow, I'm writing to petition for JDH! Will you please let her/him back on SDN? I think he/she gives really great advice and we need him/her back on here. He/she has been really helpful in the past! Plus, I dont' see what was offensive about his/her posts on here. Sometimes, we need someone to give us a dose of maturitt, although, it's probably best to ignore posts as such. Please refer to the 2009-2010 IV Questions Thread where JDH was an active responder to this years applicant pool questions.
Thanks,
A 🙂
P.S. I was skimming through the thread and can understand how points were misconstrued, until I slowed down and read in more detail...
I read through this thread as RMD referenced it in another thread, although the word prestige kept me away from the beginning. Y'all should have known better.
Anyhow, I'm writing to petition for JDH! Will you please let her/him back on SDN? I think he/she gives really great advice and we need him/her back on here. He/she has been really helpful in the past! Plus, I dont' see what was offensive about his/her posts on here. Sometimes, we need someone to give us a dose of maturitt, although, it's probably best to ignore posts as such. Please refer to the 2009-2010 IV Questions Thread where JDH was an active responder to this years applicant pool questions.
Thanks,
A 🙂
P.S. I was skimming through the thread and can understand how points were misconstrued, until I slowed down and read in more detail...
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Hey Ariee,I dont know if JDH's account was on hold due to this thread. But I too am very surprised. JDH's comments have been helpful, as have been other senior members of this forum. So if the offence was not major 😉, let him/her back!
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