Columbia vs. Penn

[Shiny Teeth 22]

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Hi all! So I received interviews at Columbia and Penn and really enjoyed my interviews at both of the schools. The students seemed really down the earth, and the programs seemed to prepare students well for post-doc opportunities, which is something that I personally want to consider. I have really been thinking about which school I want to end up at and have a list of pros and cons for each, but without creating any bias in this post, I was wondering where others would go if given this situation.

Just as a side note, I was not awarded the Dean's scholarship and the major bulk of the education will be financed through loans.

Thanks all!

 

[JLT223]

Interviews or acceptances?

 

[Shiny Teeth 22]

Was accepted to both -- definitely should have clarified that. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[doktorinprogres]

If you're really interested in specializing from afar it seems like penn would be better because columbia might put you in the bottom third vs worst case rank 11 at penn doesn't seem to reflect as poorly. Could be wrong.

 

[JLT223]

The cost of living at Columbia is also crazy compared to anything you'd find in Philly.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Based on almost no information about the schools, just based on hearsay, I'd say Penn. But if you got into both of those, I feel like you likely got into somewhere else that's cheaper. And if you're financing everything through loans, I'd reconsider whatever school that was....but again, if you for sure narrowed it down to those two, then Penn.

 

[Shiny Teeth 22]

If you're really interested in specializing from afar it seems like penn would be better because columbia might put you in the bottom third vs worst case rank 11 at penn doesn't seem to reflect as poorly. Could be wrong.

From my understanding, both seem to have pretty solid numbers in terms of specializing but that definitely could be a point of focus. As far as I know (and if someone knows for sure the pros/cons of each style, that would be extremely helpful), Penn is graded with letter grades, accumulating a GPA and rank of 1-10 and then everyone after is #11. Columbia is Honors/Pass/Fail so no actual GPA, and ranked in thirds after the second year is completed, which I think means more extracurriculars, externships, etc. are needed to help stand out.

 

[Shiny Teeth 22]

The cost of living at Columbia is also crazy compared to anything you'd find in Philly.

From what the students mentioned at the interview day, living by Columbia is not as expensive as other places in Manhattan but, generally, things are more expensive in New York. With living expenses included to tuition and fees, total numbers seemed to show that Columbia is ~60k cheaper than Penn, but again, the prices of daily living may narrow that gap.

 

[Shiny Teeth 22]

Based on almost no information about the schools, just based on hearsay, I'd say Penn. But if you got into both of those, I feel like you likely got into somewhere else that's cheaper. And if you're financing everything through loans, I'd reconsider whatever school that was....but again, if you for sure narrowed it down to those two, then Penn.

Thank you for your input! I've also heard great things about the Penn even before I was accepted and their clinic is really nice. Definitely will be considering finances as well.

 

[musicplease]

since both are similarly expensive I would go to the ivy league instead of the state college, choose Columbia!

 

[JLT223]

since both are similarly expensive I would go to the ivy league instead of the state college, choose Columbia!

Not sure if serious

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Not sure if serious

Might be serious. Many people don't know which schools are Ivy League besides Harvard/Yale/Princeton. Penn gets confused with Penn State. Which is why people shouldn't let their decisions weigh heavily on the "name brand"...

 

[JLT223]

Might be serious. Many people don't know which schools are Ivy League besides Harvard/Yale/Princeton. Penn gets confused with Penn State. Which is why people shouldn't let their decisions weigh heavily on the "name brand"...

Penn state doesn't even have a dental school though lol

 

[hellofuturedentists]

Penn state doesn't even have a dental school though lol

I know but I meant in general

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[VBLR3]

😵

 

[Jmokan]

Hi all! So I received interviews at Columbia and Penn and really enjoyed my interviews at both of the schools. The students seemed really down the earth, and the programs seemed to prepare students well for post-doc opportunities, which is something that I personally want to consider. I have really been thinking about which school I want to end up at and have a list of pros and cons for each, but without creating any bias in this post, I was wondering where others would go if given this situation.

Just as a side note, I was not awarded the Dean's scholarship and the major bulk of the education will be financed through loans.

Thanks all!

Advantages I see with Columbia is if you want to specialize omfs because of the school's medical curriculum and that you get to live in new york (which some ppl may not actually like bc it gets hectic). But other than that Penn is a more well-rounded program and philly's still a nice city.

 

[tyjacobs]

So I got into both schools this past cycle and I ended up choosing columbia over penn for the following reasons:

- I like NYC a lot better than Philly
- Columbia is cheaper by like 60k-70k
- Columbia is moving to Pass/Fail according to my friend (need further conformation on this)
- I got the vibe from the students that columbia gives you "free time" to do things beyond school. Talked to some D1s while they were in the preclin lab and they were telling me they had an exam monday but were going out to drink satuday night. Also compared the year 1 schedules of upenn and columbia and it seems you are in class way more at upenn than columbia
- people at upenn were pushing their name too much it seems like they justified the price tag for saying oh ur going to an ivy you will get into a specialty. upenn was the only place where I heard about "tiered ranking" for dental schools

I want to specialize and I know both schools get their students into specialty programs at roughly the same rates so I considered both equal in this respect.


if you have any more questions feel free to personal message me

 

[jokersmiles]

if you able to get into any cheaper school than either of those go there, if these are your only acceptances go with Columbia so save money.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[Scumbag_Steve]

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[A Pre-dent]

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[The Anhedonia]

Please let this be true...

It's not true. Graduated in 2014 from Columbia. They will continue to be H/P/F, there have also been administrative talks about going to formal grading but that is highly unlikely. Given the P/F status of the NBDE Columbia chose to keep HPF for some metric of academic stratification for residency applicants.

 

[Shiny Teeth 22]

I think this would be an easy decision for most people because the curricular differences are so significant and obvious. However, there are some other factors to consider:

1. Exam style. For pre-clinical classes, Penn quizzes students once a week--usually on Mondays or Tuesdays--whereas Columbia administers holistic block exams every couple weeks. Columbia's biomedical program makes for a more rigorous academic education, but it also offers students more flexibility in the weekly schedule. Thus, you are more able to take weekends off at Columbia. However, Penn's structured program paces you so you will not have to cram as often. For clinical years, I think (correct me if I'm wrong, here) evaluations are competency-based at Penn, while Columbia simply requires the satisfactory completion of x number of each procedure.

2. Dual Degrees. At Penn, MAs and MPHs are free and are completed at night within 4 years. At Columbia, you have to take at least an extra year to complete an additional degree, and I believe you must pay tuition.

3. Student culture. It appears to me that Columbia students are more cerebral, laid back, and have interesting non-dental experiences--very much Ivy-League types. Penn students are more professionally-oriented, competitive, and value success through hard work moreso than raw talent. Despite both being private Ivy League schools, I like think of Columbia as a laid-back Harvard and Penn as the distillation and combination of the best qualities of "less prestigious" schools; they are the best in their own different respects. This is totally my subjective opinion, though.

4. Personal safety. Probably the same at both schools at this point in time. However, if the current political status quo is maintained, Washington Heights, Harlem, etc. will continue to gentrify while Philly will remain a dump.

Thank you for your response! Given all of these other factors to consider, would you value Columbia higher for the laid-back atmosphere and more free time or the more rigorous but also more structured dual degree programs at Penn? It seems like both have their pros and cons so I'm just curious as to what you would do even with the curricular differences.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[tyjacobs]

Personally, I ranked Columbia over Penn on my list. I'm very interested in OMFS or pathology and I think Columbia's medical education would prepare me best for the USMLE, ADAT, etc. And if I were to subspecialize, I think I would like the medical side to OMFS (e.g. trauma, microvascular reconstruction)--I'm absolutely fascinated by face transplantation. I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm the kind of person who shoots for the stars given the opportunity to do so. If I don't get matched to an OMFS residency, I would rather fall back on academia & research than go into general dentistry full time, so I would not be too concerned with the clinical education at Columbia. If I was not interested in studying the entire human body, I would go to Penn because I would get a better clinical education and I'd have a more detailed knowledge of the teeth & oral cavity.

I don't really care about having free time to relax...I see "free time" as an opportunity to get ahead and improve myself even more. However, no one would say I have the personality of a gunner--I would rather help my classmates than compete against them. I think that fits with the vibe at Columbia. Plus if I got a night off in NYC, I would use it to gig for extra cash. (I'm a professional musician.)

Are you in dental school or are you applying this upcoming cycle?

 

[JLT223]

What makes Columbia more medically oriented than other schools besides the fact that they take 4 common core classes with the MD students and have 4 rotations in hospitals? I'm honestly curious.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[tyjacobs]

Well, I think those aspects of the program are a big deal, even though it might not look like much on paper. That is a year-and-a-half of medical courses. And, since we are comparing Columbia to Penn in particular, I think it should be noted that during my Penn interview, the dean of admissions bragged about how all faculty are dentists, and how they cut out superfluous medical information from the curriculum so students can become better experts in the teeth & mouth. Penn does teach "medical dentistry," like most top dental schools, but it does not teach "medicine." I, for one, want to have the same understanding of the renal system (for example) as any medical student, and I don't think I would get that at Penn. This is the kind of stuff that appears on the USMLE, which I believe future OMFS residents are required to take. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.) However, this might come at the expense of a depth of pure dental knowledge which Penn students get.

On the whole, the schools aren't going to be radically different--all dental schools must produce competent clinical dentists. This is just one factor that is important to me which may not be important to most other future dental students, even to other OMFS hopefuls.



I was accepted to these schools, in addition to others. I'm not a dental student yet, so take my humble opinions with a grain of salt. This info is from my interview experiences and from my conversations with current students at and alumni from both schools.

Where are you going to school?

 

[ultimateballer07]

Well, I think those aspects of the program are a big deal, even though it might not look like much on paper. That is a year-and-a-half of medical courses. And, since we are comparing Columbia to Penn in particular, I think it should be noted that during my Penn interview, the dean of admissions bragged about how all faculty are dentists, and how they cut out superfluous medical information from the curriculum so students can become better experts in the teeth & mouth. Penn does teach "medical dentistry," like most top dental schools, but it does not teach "medicine." I, for one, want to have the same understanding of the renal system (for example) as any medical student, and I don't think I would get that at Penn. This is the kind of stuff that appears on the USMLE, which I believe future OMFS residents are required to take. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.) However, this might come at the expense of a depth of pure dental knowledge which Penn students get.

On the whole, the schools aren't going to be radically different--all dental schools must produce competent clinical dentists. This is just one factor that is important to me which may not be important to most other future dental students, even to other OMFS hopefuls.



I was accepted to these schools, in addition to others. I'm not a dental student yet, so take my humble opinions with a grain of salt. This info is from my interview experiences and from my conversations with current students at and alumni from both schools.

Sounds like this guy chose dentistry as his backup to medicine. I have no idea why you're pursuing this career if you want to learn medicine. Go to medical school then. Everyone who ends up switching says they want to do OMFS. Lol

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

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[Scumbag_Steve]

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[ModifiedBass]

Penn matched 12/12 for OMFS this cycle

 

[JLT223]

Sounds like this guy chose dentistry as his backup to medicine. I have no idea why you're pursuing this career if you want to learn medicine. Go to medical school then. Everyone who ends up switching says they want to do OMFS. Lol

I thought the same thing at first. Dentistry is NOT medicine.

 

[A Pre-dent]

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[Shiny Teeth 22]

Personally, I ranked Columbia over Penn on my list. I'm very interested in OMFS or pathology and I think Columbia's medical education would prepare me best for the USMLE, ADAT, etc. And if I were to subspecialize, I think I would like the medical side to OMFS (e.g. trauma, microvascular reconstruction)--I'm absolutely fascinated by face transplantation. I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm the kind of person who shoots for the stars given the opportunity to do so. If I don't get matched to an OMFS residency, I would rather fall back on academia & research than go into general dentistry full time, so I would not be too concerned with the clinical education at Columbia. If I was not interested in studying the entire human body, I would go to Penn because I would get a better clinical education and I'd have a more detailed knowledge of the teeth & oral cavity.

I don't really care about having free time to relax...I see "free time" as an opportunity to get ahead and improve myself even more. However, no one would say I have the personality of a gunner--I would rather help my classmates than compete against them. I think that fits with the vibe at Columbia. Plus if I got a night off in NYC, I would use it to gig for extra cash. (I'm a professional musician.)

Very interesting perspective, thank you and thanks to all of those who have provided their insight so far!

 

[pigman5010]

It's not true. Graduated in 2014 from Columbia. They will continue to be H/P/F, there have also been administrative talks about going to formal grading but that is highly unlikely. Given the P/F status of the NBDE Columbia chose to keep HPF for some metric of academic stratification for residency applicants.

Does having H/P/F system feel exactly the same as having A/B/C grading system? Or does H/P/F reduce competition among peers?

 

[wengerout]

Does having H/P/F system feel exactly the same as having A/B/C grading system? Or does H/P/F reduce competition among peers?

To my understanding it reduces competition since you aren't ranked in the same way as you would be in the A/B/C system but I haven't started dental school yet so take that with a grain of salt


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[The Anhedonia]

it's a dumb system.

the only reason to do a 'pass/fail' system is to prevent the insane amount gunnery. if you make any distinction beyond this by adding an "H", it is not longer P/F and is equivocal to ABC.

also, Columbia does rank, they just do it differently, you are placed into 3rds (top middle bottom) based on your H's.

competition is still rampant as it is at any regular grading system.

 

[Kareful]

To my understanding it reduces competition since you aren't ranked in the same way as you would be in the A/B/C system but I haven't started dental school yet so take that with a grain of salt


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I use about a kilo of salt a day on this forum. At least you recommend a dose!

 

[wengerout]

it's a dumb system.

the only reason to do a 'pass/fail' system is to prevent the insane amount gunnery. if you make any distinction beyond this by adding an "H", it is not longer P/F and is equivocal to ABC.

also, Columbia does rank, they just do it differently, you are placed into 3rds (top middle bottom) based on your H's.

competition is still rampant as it is at any regular grading system.

While I don't agree that it's a "dumb system" it's true that Columbia ranks in thirds (Supposedly their is discussion on eliminating H's)

Still, to say ranking in thirds is equivalent to a true ranking system is inaccurate. There is much less pressure to be placed into three general groups than to be in a competition with every single student in your class.

 

[pigman5010]

While I don't agree that it's a "dumb system" it's true that Columbia ranks in thirds (Supposedly their is discussion on eliminating H's)

Still, to say ranking in thirds is equivalent to a true ranking system is inaccurate. There is much less pressure to be placed into three general groups than to be in a competition with every single student in your class.

I heard that the ranking into thirds doesn't happen until the fourth year. Is that true?

 

[The Anhedonia]

While I don't agree that it's a "dumb system" it's true that Columbia ranks in thirds (Supposedly their is discussion on eliminating H's)

Still, to say ranking in thirds is equivalent to a true ranking system is inaccurate. There is much less pressure to be placed into three general groups than to be in a competition with every single student in your class.

In theory your statement is correct.

In reality it is not at all like this. I went to Columbia and experienced first hand the gunnery (granted I worked hard too cuz I wanted to make top 10-see below). When you tell a bunch of type A high DAT dental students that there is a way for them to distinguish themselves via their grades, whether via grades or hpf, The whole purpose of a p/f becomes moot as everybody is gunning for an H, the criteria for which varies greatly between all classes .

Also, little known secret, there is a top 10 list, and you only find out about it when you receive a letter as a 4th year for your residency apps and OKU acceptance - think about that for a sec. even if there weren't a top 10, imagine if everybody earned all Hs, there would still be a 3-tier stratification of the class, meaning there's more to it than just a binary "h" or "p"

This is why a h/p/f system is indeed dumb. It's lying to yourself as a school, saying "we want hpf to decrease the sense of competition an increase collaboration" while simultaneously creating tiers for students academic ranks.

Additionally, it creates an all-or-nothing approach to your grades, especially if you are borderline H but get a P. Say you score an 89.4% on final exam and H criteria was 90%. If it were me, I'd rather have my grade show as B+ showing some degree of achievement instead of receiving a P that lumps me in with the people who may have got a 70%

 

[anonon]

Columbia is a sham in more ways than you can ever imagine as a pre-dent. Choose wisely.

 

[pigman5010]

Columbia is a sham in more ways than you can ever imagine as a pre-dent. Choose wisely.

could you expound?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

could you expound?

Walking from my hotel to the school for my interview was the first and last time I've seen a grown man take a dump on the sidewalk. When you've got to void, you've got to void...I guess.

Big Hoss

 

[tyjacobs]

In theory your statement is correct.

In reality it is not at all like this. I went to Columbia and experienced first hand the gunnery (granted I worked hard too cuz I wanted to make top 10-see below). When you tell a bunch of type A high DAT dental students that there is a way for them to distinguish themselves via their grades, whether via grades or hpf, The whole purpose of a p/f becomes moot as everybody is gunning for an H, the criteria for which varies greatly between all classes .

Also, little known secret, there is a top 10 list, and you only find out about it when you receive a letter as a 4th year for your residency apps and OKU acceptance - think about that for a sec. even if there weren't a top 10, imagine if everybody earned all Hs, there would still be a 3-tier stratification of the class, meaning there's more to it than just a binary "h" or "p"

This is why a h/p/f system is indeed dumb. It's lying to yourself as a school, saying "we want hpf to decrease the sense of competition an increase collaboration" while simultaneously creating tiers for students academic ranks.

Additionally, it creates an all-or-nothing approach to your grades, especially if you are borderline H but get a P. Say you score an 89.4% on final exam and H criteria was 90%. If it were me, I'd rather have my grade show as B+ showing some degree of achievement instead of receiving a P that lumps me in with the people who may have got a 70%

they removed top 10 starting this year for 1st yrs

sure, pass is bad for if you are getting a B+ but then again you can just barely pass and you'll get a P instead of a C- --> so it all balances out. so basically you are like: i am trying for honors, or i am trying to pass, which is better than I am trying to get an A or I am trying to get a B (B is more work than a P)

not all classes are gunnery at columbia maybe your class was but it really varies by year

 

[wengerout]

they removed top 10 starting this year for 1st yrs

sure, pass is bad for if you are getting a B+ but then again you can just barely pass and you'll get a P instead of a C- --> so it all balances out. so basically you are like: i am trying for honors, or i am trying to pass, which is better than I am trying to get an A or I am trying to get a B (B is more work than a P)

not all classes are gunnery at columbia maybe your class was but it really varies by year

Thanks for clearing that up, I knew one of the students I talked to would have mentioned the top 10 list if it was still being used.


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