combined MD/DO programs

[EMchairman]

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We are an established allopathic EM program that has always had a few high quality DOs in our program each year. As I view the increase in DO medical student enrollment it occurs to me that we may want to explore ways to make our program even more attractive to DO candidates.
We are considering applying for dual certification so that we can offer DOs their DO internship, important of course for those who want to return to one of the 5 states that require a DO internship.

My question is this; I would presume this would be viewed positively by DO applicants. Is that a correct assumption
I also am conterned about how will this be viewed by MD applicants. Is this a positive, a neutral, or negative action on our part.

 

[dingozlife]

I have a question hopefully others could help chip in for 2 scenarios:

1. If Im a DO applying for any of the 5 states that require DO's to do an internship yr before they start their EM residency training... does the same rule apply to a DO applying to the dual-accredited program via ACGME?

2. If a DO applies to ACGME only programs in the 5 states that require DO internship and they do not do an internship, are they allowed to train at that program? Does that restrict them from practicing in that state only or will they run into state license problems in other states as well?

 

[EM2BE]

Here's my understanding to your question 1:

If a program is dually accredited, it will work for the DO internship requirement for those 5 states. This would mean that they would not have to find an intern year elsewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Things are still hazy to me.

Edit: As a future DO, a new program available is a great thing to hear. Especially if one wants to apply only osteopathic but would want to be in that location. Since there are a limited number of programs available, every one added seems it would be advantageous on this side, but I don't know how the allopaths would view it (advantage/disadvantage/neither).

 

[EMchairman]

I have a question hopefully others could help chip in for 2 scenarios:

1. If Im a DO applying for any of the 5 states that require DO's to do an internship yr before they start their EM residency training... does the same rule apply to a DO applying to the dual-accredited program via ACGME?

2. If a DO applies to ACGME only programs in the 5 states that require DO internship and they do not do an internship, are they allowed to train at that program? Does that restrict them from practicing in that state only or will they run into state license problems in other states as well?

If you're in a dual accredited program then the PGY1 year counts as your DO internship.
I'm not certain I can answer question number 2. It may be state dependent.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

We are an established allopathic EM program that has always had a few high quality DOs in our program each year. As I view the increase in DO medical student enrollment it occurs to me that we may want to explore ways to make our program even more attractive to DO candidates.
We are considering applying for dual certification so that we can offer DOs their DO internship, important of course for those who want to return to one of the 5 states that require a DO internship.

My question is this; I would presume this would be viewed positively by DO applicants. Is that a correct assumption
I also am conterned about how will this be viewed by MD applicants. Is this a positive, a neutral, or negative action on our part.

From what I hear it is somewhat costly to become dual, but I think there is a way that you can structure their first year rotations so that it qualifies for an internship year without becoming dual. I remember reading somewhere that penn state does something like that for their DO residents so they can practice in PA. I could also have read incorrect information, but just the fact that you take DO's every year makes us more willing to apply.

 

[The Tolf]

If you're in a dual accredited program then the PGY1 year counts as your DO internship.
I'm not certain I can answer question number 2. It may be state dependent.

If a DO completes an allopathic residency and does not complete an osteopathic internship year or apply for a waiver for the internship (resolution 42), then they can not become licensed in 5 states. If a DO completes said residency in one of those 5 states, they will not be able to continue to practice in that state (or the 4 others) upon graduation.

As a DO student, I feel becoming a dually accredited program is a huge bonus. However, I am not sure how MD students would feel about it... Some people look at program's residents, and consider DOs and foreign grads to be a marker for lower quality programs. I disagree with that, but think it might be a possibility in peoples minds?!?!?!

 

[PistolPete]

Some people look at program's residents, and consider DOs and foreign grads to be a marker for lower quality programs

Well, I think they better start getting used to it because there will be a lot more DO's graduating in the coming years. I think the stats are something like 30% of all physicians by 2020 will be DO's (don't quote me on that, but I think that's right).

Anyway, to answer the OP: I would think it'd be definitely viewed as positively by DO's, and probably neutrally by MD's (it was ACGME accredited, and still is, so there's no difference there, and there's been DO's in the program for a long time, and there will continue to be, so again, no difference there).

 

[Used2Fly]

If a DO completes an allopathic residency and does not complete an osteopathic internship year or apply for a waiver for the internship (resolution 42), then they can not become licensed in 5 states. If a DO completes said residency in one of those 5 states, they will not be able to continue to practice in that state (or the 4 others) upon graduation.

My understanding after talking to the AOA and one of the programs and current resident in Florida is that changes recently made to Resolution 42 have made it much easier to get a waiver for the internship. The criteria used to be very stringent AND you had to prove some sort of hardship for why you could not have done the osteopathic internship.

Basically, your internship year must meet the following two items (and the proper paperwork is submit on time):

1) Core OGME-1 Rotation requirements must meet EITHER traditional rotating OR emergency medicine (link to requirements PDF- https://www.do-online.org/pdf/sir_ogme1core.pdf)

2) EITHER attend 8 hours of Catagory IA Osteopathic lecture (conference) OR prepare and present a lecture to your program about any osteopathic topic

More information here: https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_postdocabtres42

Further, as far as Florida goes, I was told that unless you want to practice there after residency that most of the residents were not even bothering with the resolution 42 and they did NOT do the osteopathic internship. Apparently, getting the residency license isn't a problem. Moonlighting was another story, as you needed the Res 42 or Osteo internship to do moonlight. This is what the (DO) resident and the residency coordinator both told me. Obviously, one should check with the program, the licensing boards, and speak with the AOA directly to confirm before ranking any of these programs. I suspect this process varies for each of the frive states.

As to the OP -
DOs would love it! The VAST majority of EM Osteopathic residencies are in a handful of states (most of which I don't want to live), so any expanded opportunities would be welcome.

MDs (I assume) could view this as an unfair advantage because the osteopathic match occurs first, which would give them first shot at matching. Perhaps other dual programs have found a way to address this. Maybe a certain number of positions could be reserved for both applicant types.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I would guess that MD students would view this as neutral to negative. One of the reasons stated above is the earlier DO match.

Out of curiosity, if you are a solid program with a strong showing of DOs already, why do you need to increase your appeal to DO applicants? I'd figure they'd already be pounding your door down...

 

[PistolPete]

MDs (I assume) could view this as an unfair advantage because the osteopathic match occurs first, which would give them first shot at matching. Perhaps other dual programs have found a way to address this.

Anybody know if there's a plan to combine the matches anytime soon?

 

[cyclohexanol]

Anybody know if there's a plan to combine the matches anytime soon?

No.

http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php

Voice your opinions there

 

[igcgnerd]

It's already been changed to be listed as a dual accredited program on the osteopathic opportunities website. That was fast. Not even up on the ERAS yet cus it's only has a preliminary approval. This brings the number of dual accredited programs up to five with the addition of Genesys Regional Med center in Michigan starting next year. Very cool.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

It's already been changed to be listed as a dual accredited program on the osteopathic opportunities website. That was fast. Not even up on the ERAS yet cus it's only has a preliminary approval. This brings the number of dual accredited programs up to five with the addition of Genesys Regional Med center in Michigan starting next year. Very cool.

Whats the program? If its in cali my guess is gonna be Kern medical center

 

[jbp100]

Third year osteopathic med student here....

I know talking to many of my classmates, part of the appeal of ACGME programs is the ability to complete the program in 3 years as opposed to 4 years (which all osteopathic programs are).

Besides the length of the program, the osteopathic programs are geographically sparse. Many of us do not want to leave Texas to train, but the closest osteopathic EM program is in OKC.

Are all the dually accredited programs 4 years in length, or only 4 years for the osteopathic students and 3 years for allopathic students? To me, I would not want to go to a program that takes me a year longer to complete than my classmates!

 

[igcgnerd]

Whats the program? If its in cali my guess is gonna be Kern medical center

Oops wrong thread but it is the same topic. Lehigh valley just won preliminary acgme accreditation and will be the 5th dually accredited program along with Albert Einstein (phili), Newark beth isreal, Michigan sparrow, and genesys.

 

[EMchairman]

Third year osteopathic med student here....

I know talking to many of my classmates, part of the appeal of ACGME programs is the ability to complete the program in 3 years as opposed to 4 years (which all osteopathic programs are).

Besides the length of the program, the osteopathic programs are geographically sparse. Many of us do not want to leave Texas to train, but the closest osteopathic EM program is in OKC.

Are all the dually accredited programs 4 years in length, or only 4 years for the osteopathic students and 3 years for allopathic students? To me, I would not want to go to a program that takes me a year longer to complete than my classmates!

From what we understand so far, our 3 year ACGME approved program would be dual accredited to be 3 years for both ACGME and AOCGME approval

 

[Old_Mil]

We are an established allopathic EM program that has always had a few high quality DOs in our program each year. As I view the increase in DO medical student enrollment it occurs to me that we may want to explore ways to make our program even more attractive to DO candidates.
We are considering applying for dual certification so that we can offer DOs their DO internship, important of course for those who want to return to one of the 5 states that require a DO internship.

My question is this; I would presume this would be viewed positively by DO applicants. Is that a correct assumption
I also am conterned about how will this be viewed by MD applicants. Is this a positive, a neutral, or negative action on our part.

I certainly can't speak for every DO, but after dealing with OMT for the first two years of medical school, I have no desire to attend a dually accredited residency and spend additional time and effort learning a treatment modality I don't believe in and will never use. The percentages you hear change somewhat, but something like 90% of DO degree holders never practice OMT. An increasing number of us take both steps of the USMLE in medical school, and make every attempt to minimize the difference in our ERAS applications to the point mutation in our degree abbreviation.

As we often hear, EM is a competitive field. I suspect that those DOs who apply to ACGME EM programs are competitive candidates who are serious about becoming excellent EM physicians. Additional applications that you receive through the Osteopathic match would likely not be from candidates who measure up to that standard.

 

[Shodddy18]

Oops wrong thread but it is the same topic. Lehigh valley just won preliminary acgme accreditation and will be the 5th dually accredited program along with Albert Einstein (phili), Newark beth isreal, Michigan sparrow, and genesys.

St Lukes Bethlehem is also a Dual program... Genesys is not yet... but will make 6 if accredited next year.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

St Lukes Bethlehem is also a Dual program... Genesys is not yet... but will make 6 if accredited next year.

i believe Genesys is dual accredited since last year and has 2 MD resients in it.

 

[roja]

I would say that for MD applicants it is probably a neutral to negative. I think its a small set who would automatically assume because there are DO's in a program that it is a poor caliber program.

One might argue that these would not be the types of MD applicants you wanted anyway.

Personally, I think its neutral to positive. Anything to increase the # of quality applicants and increase fit is a good thing. Training residents is about finding good quality and a good personality match. There are excellent DO canidates and MD canidates and mediocre/bad in both.... just my .02

 

[igcgnerd]

St Lukes Bethlehem is also a Dual program... Genesys is not yet... but will make 6 if accredited next year.

St luke's may seem like a dual program but in fact DO residents that go there aren't eligible for the allopathic boards. The DO residents do a four year program (the first being an internship year), the allo guys do a 3 year program. Both residencies occur within the same department but they are two different programs. There have been osteo applicants who have applied there through the allo match and successfully used resolution 42, meaning they train one less year than the DO's who matched there through the osteo match.

 

[allendo]

i believe Genesys is dual accredited since last year and has 2 MD resients in it.

Genesys is dual I interviewed there last week.

 

[corpsmanUP]

There are ways to make this work. I am a 3rd year at Geisinger and I got my internship approved. I now have an unrestricted license in Pa, an AOA intern certificate, and my entire residency in EM will have only been 3 years.