Combined PA & MHA Programs

[Daniel0703]

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Hello everyone,

I have a few questions that I hope the SDN community might help me answer...

1. I'm having some trouble finding dual Physician Assistant and Healthcare Administration Master programs. Feel free to leave a list of schools that offer the program.

2. Personal opinion on combined PA/MHA programs?

 

[deleted6669]

There are several dual PA/MPH programs. There is one PA/PhD (Wake Forest). I don't know of any PA/MHA or PA/JD. There are 5 or 6 PA/PharmD.
The typical PA degree is an MPAS or MMS.

 

[pamac]

Why would you want to get a MHA and a PA degree? It's like having two masters to serve.... One of them gets the short end of the stick. Same thing with masters in public health/pa programs. The school makes more money because (as they are quick to tell you) their degree gives you more bang for your buck. The school certainly gets more of your bucks by convincing you that it's worth the extra money.

If an employer wants a PA, it's to have them sitting in front of a patient developing revenue. If you aren't in front of a patient, you aren't churning up profit. They won't pay you $45 an hour to split your time between two roles and do both of them mediocre. If they want a bean counter, they want someone that understands beans. If they want a clinician, they want a workhorse. I got an interview at a PA school that offered an MPH along with their PA degree. For an extra year and 40k, I'd be a perfect fit for a job paying much less than what a surgeon would pay me to work as his PA, and the surgeon would care less that I had the MPH. If you want to be a PA, spare yourself the effort and expense of tacking on the MHA. If you want to be an executive, spare yourself the expense and effort of becoming a PA.

 

[Daniel0703]

Why would you want to get a MHA and a PA degree? It's like having two masters to serve.... One of them gets the short end of the stick. Same thing with masters in public health/pa programs. The school makes more money because (as they are quick to tell you) their degree gives you more bang for your buck. The school certainly gets more of your bucks by convincing you that it's worth the extra money.

If an employer wants a PA, it's to have them sitting in front of a patient developing revenue. If you aren't in front of a patient, you aren't churning up profit. They won't pay you $45 an hour to split your time between two roles and do both of them mediocre. If they want a bean counter, they want someone that understands beans. If they want a clinician, they want a workhorse. I got an interview at a PA school that offered an MPH along with their PA degree. For an extra year and 40k, I'd be a perfect fit for a job paying much less than what a surgeon would pay me to work as his PA, and the surgeon would care less that I had the MPH. If you want to be a PA, spare yourself the effort and expense of tacking on the MHA. If you want to be an executive, spare yourself the expense and effort of becoming a PA.

I was interested in a MHA because after becoming a PA I have aspirations of also becoming an educator. The MHA/MPH are just additional credentials that would allow for me to teach. Of course I know at the University level you need to have your Ph.D. Just thoughts nothing concrete..

 

[wutthechris]

Why would you want to get a MHA and a PA degree? It's like having two masters to serve.... One of them gets the short end of the stick. Same thing with masters in public health/pa programs. The school makes more money because (as they are quick to tell you) their degree gives you more bang for your buck. The school certainly gets more of your bucks by convincing you that it's worth the extra money.

If an employer wants a PA, it's to have them sitting in front of a patient developing revenue. If you aren't in front of a patient, you aren't churning up profit. They won't pay you $45 an hour to split your time between two roles and do both of them mediocre. If they want a bean counter, they want someone that understands beans. If they want a clinician, they want a workhorse. I got an interview at a PA school that offered an MPH along with their PA degree. For an extra year and 40k, I'd be a perfect fit for a job paying much less than what a surgeon would pay me to work as his PA, and the surgeon would care less that I had the MPH. If you want to be a PA, spare yourself the effort and expense of tacking on the MHA. If you want to be an executive, spare yourself the expense and effort of becoming a PA.

I hope anyone interested in the PA field will completely ignore the above post. We need PAs getting MHA, MBA, JD, MPH, and doctorate degrees. It's absolutely vital for our profession to make further inroads into administration, government and education.

 

[pamac]

I've noticed that the buzz-phrase on many forums these days seems to be "everyone should ignore _____." In this case, why should everyone ignore my case before they considered what's best for them? The OP makes a decent case that answers my question to my satisfaction... He or she wants to be an educator. But I don't instinctively buy into the logic of taking it for the team to "help the profession".... Especially when the profession is cranking out grads at an incredible rate. A dual degree might help to make inroads, but on an individual scale, look at your options.... Don't "ignore" anything, consider everything.

A surgeon told my friend how the conditions now with all the grads coming down the bend caused his bonus structure to be revised.... Down. And the response from the office manager and partners to the PAs who immediately were taken aback was "this is the market reality here. We have plenty of folks begging for work and for the specialty practice environment." All three are staying despite the changes. This is the atmosphere I'd be coming back to with my $150k dual MPA/PA degree (not to mention other expenses tacked on to that). Do you think I'd command more from a boss than a PA with even a few more years experience?

I don't think it's absurd to look at the realities. I'm in a reasonable representation of a decent healthcare market, and there aren't a lot of niches for PAs outside of patient care. I think I made a pretty good case for why that is. Most of the opportunities for PAs with those added credentials are in small niches, and any employer will expect you to hold your own on whatever task is in front of you. The career path is convoluted at best. The monetary cost and amount of effort seems too high to roll the dice. As difficult as a PA degree is to obtain, I'd be hard pressed to make it second banana to another degree.

 

[wutthechris]

I don't think it's absurd to look at the realities. I'm in a reasonable representation of a decent healthcare market, and there aren't a lot of niches for PAs outside of patient care. I think I made a pretty good case for why that is. Most of the opportunities for PAs with those added credentials are in small niches, and any employer will expect you to hold your own on whatever task is in front of you. The career path is convoluted at best. The monetary cost and amount of effort seems too high to roll the dice. As difficult as a PA degree is to obtain, I'd be hard pressed to make it second banana to another degree.

It seems you're assuming that you know more about the profession than you actually do. The problem isn't that there aren't opportunities for PAs outside of patient care; it's that we don't have enough PAs with the credentials to pursue them. There wouldn't be any PAs in administration or government if the former was the case. Many PAs get to a point in their careers where they want to dial back on the patient care and enter into other roles. We, as a profession, need to do a better job of getting PAs into these roles whether that is through advanced degrees or additional training. More programs need to offer quicker/cheaper ways to obtain secondary degrees and the ARC-PA requirements should include way more about leadership.

I have no idea what you were trying to get across with your surgery story.

 

[Makati2008]

It seems you're assuming that you know more about the profession than you actually do. The problem isn't that there aren't opportunities for PAs outside of patient care; it's that we don't have enough PAs with the credentials to pursue them. There wouldn't be any PAs in administration or government if the former was the case. Many PAs get to a point in their careers where they want to dial back on the patient care and enter into other roles. We, as a profession, need to do a better job of getting PAs into these roles whether that is through advanced degrees or additional training. More programs need to offer quicker/cheaper ways to obtain secondary degrees and the ARC-PA requirements should include way more about leadership.

I have no idea what you were trying to get across with your surgery story.

How would this further the profession? I think the thing that would help PAs leaps and bounds are better practice rights/working conditions(and that doesn't mean independent practice.)

I tend to agree with PAMAC, unfortunately these secondary degrees don't seem to give a Big Bang for the buck unless you want to cultivate a niche. The average PA probably won't want that hassle.

 

[wutthechris]

How would this further the profession?

It's straight forward:

More PAs in admin = better practice environment for PAs at a local level. Look to nursing for an example.

More PAs in government = better practice environment for PAs at a state/national level.

More PAs in education = better PA education.

I also think we need to have programs offering doctoral pathways for those that want to spend a little extra time beyond the masters. A couple are working on this.

 

[pamac]

No, Chris, the problem isn't that there aren't the credentials behind a PAs name, it's that there isn't a specific administrative role for them to step into that makes demands upon their PA expertise, unless it has to do with training or supervising other PAs. If there is a role, it's a role that squanders and disregards the skills and abilities that comprised the hardest part of their training. Like I said, one of those PA/mpa programs wanted to talk to me, but most of the employers I'd be approaching after graduation would be interested only in the PA part of the training. The ones who would be impressed with the MPH part couldn't pay me enough to make up for the added cost in time and finances it would have taken me to go through one of those programs. That was the point of the surgery example... MPH doesn't help much with RVU when compared with the $500,000 dollars PAs bring into a practice when they are seeing patients. Employers concerned with the bottom line aren't going to pay a premium for what would amount to a vanity degree to them. Depending on what the employer needs, the vanity degree could be either the PA with the vanity MPA that isn't needed, or the administrator that has an MHA and a vanity PA degree that isn't necessary to run the business.

I get what you are saying, and I see the temptation to run with that approach as an answer to the DNP, but I think it's flawed to do so across the board. Nurses get in on the administration bandwagon mostly by virtue of them simply being the largest portion of the healthcare workforce that they know and understand by default. NPs get to carpool because they are related to the driver. It's not much more fancy than that. RNs can't bring in $500000+ dollars a year in value single handedly like PA can, but they know how to run units that bring in twenty times that (and that ability is directly related to their expertise as RNs). Doctors do the same thing by harnessing their knowledge of their realm. If you see the rare PA in an admin role, it's usually because they distinguished themselves independent of their PA credentials, not because of the added insight they obtained by coupling their education as a PA with something like an MHA. I just think it's a disservice to proffer an expensive dual degree as a boost when the market really seems to want PAs to be clinicians.

 

[deleted6669]

Just heard about a dual pa/mha program:
http://www.pacificu.edu/mha/prospective/dualDegrees.cfm
the advantage of a dual degree is that allows you to move on from clinical practice into something else in the future. for example the president of the em group at hopkins is a former em pa with an mba:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/Faculty/JHH/scheulen.html
pas with an mph have other options for employment that either pay more(govt) or are not open (doctors without borders) to pas without those credentials.

 

[Daniel0703]

Just heard about a dual pa/mha program:
http://www.pacificu.edu/mha/prospective/dualDegrees.cfm
the advantage of a dual degree is that allows you to move on from clinical practice into something else in the future. for example the president of the em group at hopkins is a former em pa with an mba:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/emergencymedicine/Faculty/JHH/scheulen.html
pas with an mph have other options for employment that either pay more(govt) or are not open (doctors without borders) to pas without those credentials.

Emedpa,

You mind taking a quick look at the PA/PHD program at Wake Forest, it looks like you have to apply to the PHD program first and then have the option to apply to the PA program. Does that mean I have to have earned a masters degree prior? Seems strange to earn a masters then apply to the PHD program and go back and get your PA degree. Instead of PA --> PHD program, just like the MD/PHD is structured..let me know your thoughts.

 

[deleted6669]

I know a bit about that program. it's not really "dual degree", but a sequential pa and phd in basic medical sciences. many phd programs can be entered without a masters, they just take longer. some give an ms as a midpoint credential.

 

[didymus]

I actually plan on getting an MBA/MHA after completing PA school. The reason? To be a top notch practice owner. I'm not doing it for the credentials alone, I 'm doing it to actually learn a few things about practice and business management. I think the credentials will serve someone well when owning a practice that seeks to employ physicians, who are highly educated. Moreover, getting administrative degrees may not do anything in the way of increasing PA marketability in a clinical role, but it can do a heckuva lot to increase marketability in administrative roles. There are lots of high-paying admin roles out there in clinics and hospital systems. Showing that you can contribute beyond a clinical capacity has the potential to open lots of doors professionally.

 

[pamac]

I wouldn't say there are "lots" of high paying roles out there, but apparently there is one at Johns Hopkins that a PA is currently filling. I think the impression is flawed that being a PA and having some additional business credentials form some sort of unbeatable bi-fecta of executive employability. Ultimately, you are going to have to prove yourself adept as an administrator, and that is how you will be judged.... not whether you checked a box indicating that you put the right combination of letters behind your name. The novelty of having a PA / MBA or MHA won't get you one step closer to a corner office than the MBA that simply knows how to run a business. I'm not saying that it's worthless to obtain more credentials, just that often such efforts are billed as having a bigger payoff then they actually end up providing to a PA.

I know quite a few nurses that have MBA's, or are working on them. They have a career pathway with their hospital systems that are incubators for budding executives. They can rise through the hierarchy and go from point A to point B and be shepherded along the way. For most PAs, there isn't an intermediary role between clinic work and the big office where they can prove themselves. Just an MBA isn't going to cut it unless they have something on the resume to show they are a prime pick. Maybe in big systems like Hopkins there are the numbers of PAs that require a framework of PA supervisors, but most places would have a relatively flat organizational structure, and consequently to elevate a PA to executive level would involve a leap of faith. So that means that the jump from a PA seeing patients to seeing a boardroom would be jarring, having very little transition.

 

[pamac]

Another couple of aspects I read on another forum are important as well... Extra time in school when you could be working is that much less income. At $93k average PA salary, a year to complete an MPH costs you that much income. How long would that take you to make that much up with your new job at the health department? How much in interest on loans for the extra time in school are you going to pay? Why can't you wait after you've become a PA to try to see if your employer will pay you school fees? Lots more to think about than just the hope of an admin job that might not exist.

 

[wutthechris]

The novelty of having a PA / MBA or MHA won't get you one step closer to a corner office than the MBA that simply knows how to run a business.

It does, however, get you one step closer to a corner office than the PA with no MBA/MHA. Docs get these degrees all the time so there is clearly some benefit to being a business-educated clinician.

 

[pamac]

Becoming a pilot gets you a step closer to becoming an astronaut as well, but if there isn't a slot open, you'd have a hard time justifying the expense. Recent trends notwithstanding, physicians have tended to be business owners by default, so it wouldn't be surprising to find them building a business acumen, as opposed to PAs that tend to be valuable employees.