combining im and psych

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revolution1980

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lets say u are in the middle of an IM residency...and u dont love it, but dont exactly hate it. not particularly interested in a specific fellowship as of yet. was considering combined im/psych residency before applying..ended up doing medicine... was close to switching to psych during intern year, but didnt.
is it possible to create your own combined im/psych residency through cooperation between both departments? and is there anyone out that practices both im and psych..and if so, what kind of setting..... just tossing around ideas here
 
lets say u are in the middle of an IM residency...and u dont love it, but dont exactly hate it. not particularly interested in a specific fellowship as of yet. was considering combined im/psych residency before applying..ended up doing medicine... was close to switching to psych during intern year, but didnt.
is it possible to create your own combined im/psych residency through cooperation between both departments? and is there anyone out that practices both im and psych..and if so, what kind of setting..... just tossing around ideas here

I'm not sure if it helps, but I know of a couple of FM docs who have "specialized" in psychiatric issues. One has worked solely in addiction medicine for the last ~20 years, the other focuses on mood disorders. Palliative care may not be a terrible idea either.

The only real way is to do a psych residency...not sure how willing you'd be to do that this late in your IM training.

To those med students considering IM vs Psych, I'd recommend you look like Consultation-Liason (aka Psychosomatic Medicine). It really is psych consults on inpatient patients. I also enjoyed both fields, but liked psych far more than IM. If I had enjoyed them both equally, I may have considered IM/Psych, but as it stands, I think C-L is more up my alley.
 
I know it's an extra year, but it seems to me the vast majority of folks who want to be dually trained would be much better off doing 3 years of IM and then PGY2-4 of psychiatry. I have several friends in triple board and fm/psych programs at 5 different programs, and I'm pretty sure most of them hate their lives much more than their colleagues.
 
I know it's an extra year, but it seems to me the vast majority of folks who want to be dually trained would be much better off doing 3 years of IM and then PGY2-4 of psychiatry. I have several friends in triple board and fm/psych programs at 5 different programs, and I'm pretty sure most of them hate their lives much more than their colleagues.

Why is it much better to do the residencies separately to be dual certified?

Also, why do most of your friends hate their lives in the triple/dual certified programs? Is it harder? Not time for a life? Whats the issue?
 
Why is it much better to do the residencies separately to be dual certified?

Also, why do most of your friends hate their lives in the triple/dual certified programs? Is it harder? Not time for a life? Whats the issue?

For one, you're not limited to the small handful of programs that have the dual-board programs. You get to spend 3 years learning to be a good medicine doc, then 3 years learning to be a good psychiatrist. If in the middle you decide you just want to do medicine, you have that option. There are probably more good programs that have open pgy2 positions on any given year than there are good programs that offer dual board programs. And with three concentrated years of psychiatry, you might actually have a chance to learn to do some therapy, whereas you probably won't have that luxury in a 5 year dual board program. Something has to give, and therapy is the first thing to go.

My friends seem miserable because they are orphans, they're always behind everyone else, they have people pulling at them from all sides, and they're serving two program directors who at times have different agendas. Medicine residencies are physically exhausting, but less emotionally so. Psychiatric residencies are emotionally exhausting, but less physically so. Dual boards could either get the best or worst of both worlds, but I find that most of them just feel exhausted both ways.

As I've said on other threads (and I unfortunately have to clarify that I'm trying to be funny rather than mean):

If you want to be a psychiatrist who specializes in *insert whatever ridiculous obscure subject medical students come up with here*, be a psychiatrist and then find people who will let you do that work as a psychiatrist. Becoming a medical expert in autoimmune scrotal disease will not help you that much in being a psychiatrist treating people with autoimmune scrotal disease who become psychotic. Maybe doing an away rotation at Ball State would make sense, but not a whole other residency.

If you want to be an internist or a family med doc who specializes in primary care in the SMI population, recognizing that you doing this work will be subject to organizations understanding the value you offer rather than reimbursement you can receive, then the dual programs are reasonable. And bless your bleeding heart.

If you're thinking triple board, you should probably just let someone beat the **** out of you with a baseball bat once a month for five years and then do psychiatry residency and child fellowship. That would be less painful than a triple board residency, and might even be more useful. (I'm really tired of seeing one of my best friends crying all the time, and we're pgy4s. It's not getting better for her.)

If you want to open up some "holistic care wellness center" somewhere on the West Coast where people can get their "medical and psychiatric care and yoga and lemongrass tea lattes all in one convenient location," you should just let someone beat the **** out of you with a baseball bat once a month for five years, period. Don't bother with any of the residencies.

Hope that helps!
 
I know it's an extra year, but it seems to me the vast majority of folks who want to be dually trained would be much better off doing 3 years of IM and then PGY2-4 of psychiatry. I have several friends in triple board and fm/psych programs at 5 different programs, and I'm pretty sure most of them hate their lives much more than their colleagues.

In reality, if I finished IM then did a 2-3 year fellowship, it would be just about the same amount of time as compared to doing a 3 yr IM residency then 3 yrs of adult psych. It is an option... I do wonder the emotional strength it would take to complete another residency. This has been hard enough.
 
My friends seem miserable because they are orphans, they're always behind everyone else, they have people pulling at them from all sides, and they're serving two program directors who at times have different agendas. Medicine residencies are physically exhausting, but less emotionally so. Psychiatric residencies are emotionally exhausting, but less physically so. Dual boards could either get the best or worst of both worlds, but I find that most of them just feel exhausted both ways.

This might be program specific. The med/psych residents I've come to know are well-respected in both the medicine and psychiatry departments and, while busy, don't seem any busier than other residents. In fact, they sometimes seem less stressed; perhaps the type of person who chooses a 5 year combined training program just knows how to handle stress better.

Also, a truly good combined program (including med/psych) should have its own program director. You shouldn't be simply an amalgamation of medicine and psychiatry. You should have your own med/psych department. When the two departments start squabbling over the role of the med/psych resident, your department should step in to defend you. Be concerned about the level of support you have without a med/psych PD and/or department.

My experiences with med/psych residents and faculty have been very enlightening. Combined training is rigorous (they're fitting 7 years worth of stuff in 5 years), but I haven't talked to anyone who thought it wasn't rewarding, both in residency and beyond.

EDIT: I didn't read your original post about your friends being at triple board and FM/psych programs. The above post was directed at concerns about IM/psych. I don't really know about anything else! 🙂
 
What you're describing is how the first combined programs came about. Talk with your PD and the psych PD. You'll have to add several years training though, and cut out electives from both.

There are people that practice both, but you have to be more entrepreneurial. Hospitals usually won't create positions for combined specialists because there's so few available. I have heard of hospitals creating a position when an appropriate applicant mentioned their availability (at Cleveland Clinic I believe). Others make their own opportunities, such as doing IM a few days a week, psych some other days. The deathtrap is going into a practice where they just end up giving you the hard to treat patients (primary care with personality d/o's), which is a recipe for burnout. A better use might be attending on a combined med/psych unit, or a medical director. Keep in mind it's a long road, though. I have a lot of friends who've done or are doing FP/Psych residencies and they are tired.
 
I'm not sure if it helps, but I know of a couple of FM docs who have "specialized" in psychiatric issues. One has worked solely in addiction medicine for the last ~20 years, .


Is his name Dr. Drew? Most people don't know his residency was in IM.
 
Is his name Dr. Drew? Most people don't know his residency was in IM.

WTF! Are you serious? Dr. Drew did his res. in IM. Maybe I have a bias toward psychiatry, but come one what the heck!
 
Is his name Dr. Drew? Most people don't know his residency was in IM.

Dr. Drew is a pathologist. So was Kevorkian, speaking of pathologists taking bizarre pathways. Dr. Laura is a physiologist.
 
Dr. Drew is a pathologist. So was Kevorkian, speaking of pathologists taking bizarre pathways. Dr. Laura is a physiologist.

NOOOO!! This is getting weirder! Is this true or are you guys messing with my head????
 
Becoming a medical expert in autoimmune scrotal disease will not help you that much in being a psychiatrist treating people with autoimmune scrotal disease who become psychotic. Maybe doing an away rotation at Ball State would make sense, but not a whole other residency.

My last attending was telling me about a patient saying that "he had a scrotal neuropathy that was really driving him nuts..."
 
NOOOO!! This is getting weirder! Is this true or are you guys messing with my head????

I stand corrected. He is an internist. Don't know why I was thinking path.
 
Not joking. Dr. Drew definitely did his residency in IM, I believe he did a fellowship in addiction medicine, but his regular residency was IM.

Oh an interesting somewhat related not, Matt Iseman, the pretty funny comedian and current host of American Ninja Warrior is an IM doc who went to med school at Columbia.
 
This might be program specific.
It definitely is.
The med/psych residents I've come to know are well-respected in both the medicine and psychiatry departments and, while busy, don't seem any busier than other residents.
The one's I've met were as busy on their internal medicine months as the internists and as busy on their psych months as the psychiatrists.

Overall, they're much busier than a psych resident because they have almost zero electives (vs. the full year of psych electives at most programs). They also seem busier (to me) than a medicine intern, because they are in a five year program vs. a three year program.
Also, a truly good combined program (including med/psych) should have its own program director. You shouldn't be simply an amalgamation of medicine and psychiatry.
Totally agree with this. The two programs I gave a serious look at were both set up with their own program director.

But keep in mind that at the end of the day, you're largely at the mercy of your psychiatry and medicine departments, in which you're both a part of. You have double the bureaucracy, double the annoyances, and double the meetings. While med-psych or family-psych may have it's own department, you really belong to both. And neither.
 
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