Coming from Europe

[florencedee]

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I am from mainland Europe, which is where I go to medical school, and I will graduate later this year. I want to go into psychiatry (main reason why I went to med school) but I'm unsure of where I would fit in best - there don't seem to be very many Europeans out here.

My undergraduate was a completely non-medical B.A./B.Sc. - I was part of the last lucky cohort that let us do Philosophy as a Science (the rest was sociology & politics). I went to high-school in England and did my undergrad in Australia, and I've spent many, many months backpacking across India and South East Asia. I've done electives in Tunisia, Egypt, Israel and New Zealand. So I'm not the typical candidate with a background in science and/or a research record.

In terms of boards I scored 211 and 245 for step 1 and 2 respectively, which I'd qualifiy as ok and good, and knowing that US experience is crucial, I am currently at UCSD for two months doing internal-med, working for that all important LOR. Although San Diego has a lot going for it, I don't think I could live here (too car-centric, and the time difference with home totally sucks). So I'm thinking about the East coast because: I'm used to bad weather, flights from New York are cheaper/more convenient and obviously the East is home to some of the best programs in the country, if not the world.

But what are my chances of getting into place such as Cornell, Cambridge or Yale? I will probably apply anyway, but maybe someone here has any thoughts on whether/how I fit in? Some of the residents seem to have pretty diverse background that I can relate to.
Also, I will be in NY/Boston later this year as this is where I am flying out of. Is there any harm in emailing the program directors and ask whether they'd be willing for me to come and say hi?

Thoughts/ideas are much appreciated.

 

[Igor4sugry]

Match process is a big gamble. Apply to as many programs as you can, see who interviews you and then rank them.
If those top programs invite you then you may have a chance. No one can really predict the match even with great scores.

 

[splik]

But what are my chances of getting into place such as Cornell, Cambridge or Yale? I will probably apply anyway, but maybe someone here has any thoughts on whether/how I fit in? Some of the residents seem to have pretty diverse background that I can relate to.
Also, I will be in NY/Boston later this year as this is where I am flying out of. Is there any harm in emailing the program directors and ask whether they'd be willing for me to come and say hi?

Hello Please see my FAQs for IMGs If you have any further questions after reading that post them there. that way others will be able to benefit from answers and it is all in one place.

You never mentioned whether you needed a visa or not. Cornell and Cambridge do not sponsor visas. You have little chance of matching into these programs. Yale does sponsor H1b visas and values having foreign trained people so you should definitely apply there. In New York, Mt Sinai and St Luke's Roosevelt's both have or have had European residents in recent memory.

You absolutely should NOT email programs directors and ask whether you can come and say hi. I had thought about this too, but for whatever reason it is NOT how things working in American Medicine.

Also why are you doing IM elective at UCSD? That's fine, and you need one IM LoR but you really need to have at least one, and ideally 2 psych LoRs, ideally US though failing that from Canada or the UK would be ok too. If you just have a US LoR from an internal medicine doc, people might get suspicious and think you are applying to psych as a backup. It is very important that your whole applications coherently explains your commitment to a career in psychiatry, and your reasons for wanting to train in the US.

 

[florencedee]

I need to do 8 weeks of internal med for my home school so I thought I may as well do it here, see if I like the people/the system and if yes look for a psych rotation - makes sense?

Cambridge sponsors J1 visas btw, so that means I could train there if they wanted me, though I'd have to leave afterwards, which is far better than not training there at all I guess.

I don't think I'll have any trouble convincing anyone on paper or in person that psych is NOT a backup 🙂 Thanks for the input, though!

 

[SmallBird]

I need to do 8 weeks of internal med for my home school so I thought I may as well do it here, see if I like the people/the system and if yes look for a psych rotation - makes sense?

Cambridge sponsors J1 visas btw, so that means I could train there if they wanted me, though I'd have to leave afterwards, which is far better than not training there at all I guess.

I don't think I'll have any trouble convincing anyone on paper or in person that psych is NOT a backup 🙂 Thanks for the input, though!

I have to agree with splik that you should read the FAQ - remember, J1 visas are sponsored by the ECFMG, so no program actually 'sponsors' a J1 visa.

Good luck with getting a good application together. I would add one piece of advice as a past IMG in the Mach, which is that research experience was very helpful to me, as it really gave me a lot to talk about during my interviews.

 

[rytydy]

I also trained in central europe. I matched into a very good east coast program (although not quite MGH level) and got a lot of top interviews including some places you listed. My step 1 and 2 scores were very high and I had good research experience but NO US clinical experience or US LORs. It is variable... some good places really liked me while others wouldn't even consider me.

I agree that you should read the FAQ and get in the best shape you can for the match then apply broadly. Good luck!!

 

[Dogdaysofsummer]

You absolutely should NOT email programs directors and ask whether you can come and say hi. I had thought about this too, but for whatever reason it is NOT how things working in American Medicine.

Really? I'm not an IMG but I was involved in resident recruitment as a chief at my program. I think it would be a positive thing to show early interest in a particular program.

 

[vistaril]

I am from mainland Europe, which is where I go to medical school, and I will graduate later this year. I want to go into psychiatry (main reason why I went to med school) but I'm unsure of where I would fit in best - there don't seem to be very many Europeans out here.

My undergraduate was a completely non-medical B.A./B.Sc. - I was part of the last lucky cohort that let us do Philosophy as a Science (the rest was sociology & politics). I went to high-school in England and did my undergrad in Australia, and I've spent many, many months backpacking across India and South East Asia. I've done electives in Tunisia, Egypt, Israel and New Zealand. So I'm not the typical candidate with a background in science and/or a research record.

In terms of boards I scored 211 and 245 for step 1 and 2 respectively, which I'd qualifiy as ok and good, and knowing that US experience is crucial, I am currently at UCSD for two months doing internal-med, working for that all important LOR. Although San Diego has a lot going for it, I don't think I could live here (too car-centric, and the time difference with home totally sucks). So I'm thinking about the East coast because: I'm used to bad weather, flights from New York are cheaper/more convenient and obviously the East is home to some of the best programs in the country, if not the world.

But what are my chances of getting into place such as Cornell, Cambridge or Yale? I will probably apply anyway, but maybe someone here has any thoughts on whether/how I fit in? Some of the residents seem to have pretty diverse background that I can relate to.
Also, I will be in NY/Boston later this year as this is where I am flying out of. Is there any harm in emailing the program directors and ask whether they'd be willing for me to come and say hi?

Thoughts/ideas are much appreciated.

your chances of matching into a highly ranked program on either coast is not very good imo. A 211 step 1 score for an img wanting to match into such a program is not 'ok'. If you were an amg it would be a different story. Yes, psychiatry is probably the easiest match out there.....but imgs still have an uphill battle for the match in general.

If you apply broadly enough and have good english skills(Im sure you do) and come across as reasonable in person, you'll get in somewhere. but I would apply fairly broadly if I were you and certainly wouldn't limit myself to well known programs on the east coast. If you do that(even limit it to the east coast), there is a very real chance as an img with a 211 step1 you may find yourself not matched.

 

[nancysinatra]

Really? I'm not an IMG but I was involved in resident recruitment as a chief at my program. I think it would be a positive thing to show early interest in a particular program.

Yeah I don't know where this idea comes from. There might be some PDs so high up in the sky that they would be offended, but I'm sure my PD and many others would welcome such contact, as long as the applicant understands how the match works.

 

[nancysinatra]

Also why are you doing IM elective at UCSD? That's fine, and you need one IM LoR but you really need to have at least one, and ideally 2 psych LoRs, ideally US though failing that from Canada or the UK would be ok too. If you just have a US LoR from an internal medicine doc, people might get suspicious and think you are applying to psych as a backup. It is very important that your whole applications coherently explains your commitment to a career in psychiatry, and your reasons for wanting to train in the US.

This is one of the saddest posts on SDN. Typical American medicine--not trying to improve itself by being openminded and seeking out the best (wherever it may be, which could be at UCSD or anywhere else), but rather narrow minded, protectionist and suspicious. I mean, gasp, to only have a US LoR from IM. (Never mind the author of the LOR is probably an IMG too). Oh well when our field fails to advance or keep up with the rest of the world we can only blame ourselves. We would never want someone after all who went to UCSD and didn't get psych letters from at least the UK.

After reading such a post I hope the OP seriously does question why he/she wants to train in the US.

 

[nancysinatra]

A 211 step 1 score for an img wanting to match into such a program is not 'ok'. If you were an amg it would be a different story.

Which is ironic since a 211 from someone not accustomed to our silly "vignette based" standardized exams, and for whom English might not be a first language is actually a greater accomplishment than a higher score from an AMG.

If you apply broadly enough and have good english skills(Im sure you do) and come across as reasonable in person, you'll get in somewhere.

I disagree. There are plenty of unreasonable people in psychiatry. There are plenty of weirdos too, in fact more than usual. You just need to more or less blend into whatever the dominant culture is at the places you apply. And flatter people by letting you know how "reasonable" they seem.

 

[silas2642]

I am from mainland Europe, which is where I go to medical school, and I will graduate later this year. I want to go into psychiatry (main reason why I went to med school) but I'm unsure of where I would fit in best - there don't seem to be very many Europeans out here.

My undergraduate was a completely non-medical B.A./B.Sc. - I was part of the last lucky cohort that let us do Philosophy as a Science (the rest was sociology & politics). I went to high-school in England and did my undergrad in Australia, and I've spent many, many months backpacking across India and South East Asia. I've done electives in Tunisia, Egypt, Israel and New Zealand. So I'm not the typical candidate with a background in science and/or a research record.

In terms of boards I scored 211 and 245 for step 1 and 2 respectively, which I'd qualifiy as ok and good, and knowing that US experience is crucial, I am currently at UCSD for two months doing internal-med, working for that all important LOR. Although San Diego has a lot going for it, I don't think I could live here (too car-centric, and the time difference with home totally sucks). So I'm thinking about the East coast because: I'm used to bad weather, flights from New York are cheaper/more convenient and obviously the East is home to some of the best programs in the country, if not the world.

But what are my chances of getting into place such as Cornell, Cambridge or Yale? I will probably apply anyway, but maybe someone here has any thoughts on whether/how I fit in? Some of the residents seem to have pretty diverse background that I can relate to.
Also, I will be in NY/Boston later this year as this is where I am flying out of. Is there any harm in emailing the program directors and ask whether they'd be willing for me to come and say hi?

Thoughts/ideas are much appreciated.

I think that overall, your chances are low. Not impossible, but somewhat low, particuarly for Cornell and Cambridge, which are more competitive due to their desirable location (i.e. not in New Haven). If I were you, I would seriously consider doing audition rotations at Cambridge and Cornell, ensure that you apply extremely early, and if you don't hear soon from the institutions of interest, send them an email stating your interest in their program within a week or so after they've downloaded your application.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Really? I'm not an IMG but I was involved in resident recruitment as a chief at my program. I think it would be a positive thing to show early interest in a particular program.

It depends on the program. If you're at a competitive program, your PD gets a billion of these emails, and probably won't even respond to them, and considers them very annoying. If it's a program that doesn't get those emails, they probably see them positively.