COMLEX friendly EM programs??

[HoodyHoo]

Hello, do any of you know of comlex friendly programs? or have DOs in your programs? I've been searching on the web and this kind of info is hard to come by.

Also, I have not taken step I USMLE.........would you guys recommend taking Step II USMLE to be more competitive?

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[tkim]

I used emramatch.org. Each program has a breakdown on how many DO's are currently in their program and how many they've taken in the past 5 years.

However, that site seems to have a few page loading problems, which the site manager insists is on my side. If you have the same problem, please contact them and have them look into it.

 

[HoodyHoo]

I used emramatch.org. Each program has a breakdown on how many DO's are currently in their program and how many they've taken in the past 5 years.

However, that site seems to have a few page loading problems, which the site manager insists is on my side. If you have the same problem, please contact them and have them look into it.

yeah i can't get on it either..........but thanks anyway. i'll try it again soon to see if it works later.

 

[tkim]

yeah i can't get on it either..........but thanks anyway. i'll try it again soon to see if it works later.

You need to report it to their webmaster. It's been doing that for quite a while and they've dismissed it as something on my side when I've reported it. If more people report it, perhaps they'll investigate it further and fix it.

 

[BklynWill]

I've reported it too. Perhaps that will expedite a response.

 

[wook]

Just sent them an e-mail as well. Used to be able to view it, now cannot.


Wook

 

[corpsmanUP]

Just review the programs on cordem.org (SAEM) and go to the websites of the individual programs. You will see the DO's like me in the pictures of the current residents. Very few programs are anti-DO. Indy took a DO this year! The ones that come to immediate mind to avoid would be NC, Wake, Vandy, but the vast majority have or can be landed by a DO with guts!! Go for it.

 

[docflanny]

Grand Rapids interviews and obviously accepts DOs without USMLE scores. If your COMLEX scores are average or below, I'd take the USMLE to prove that you can do better on a test. Otherwise, if you have strong COMLEX scores, it shouldn't really matter.

I never got the impression that INDY was not DO friendly as a program.

Good luck with your interviews and applications. I look forward to meeting some of you.

 

[Derek]

Here at Texas Tech one of our chiefs is a DO and that was the case last year as well. We have one faculty that is a DO. Several residents that are DO's including myself.

 

[seanzak]

one of our current chief residents is a "do", every class has 2 or 3 in their year...

 

[HoodyHoo]

Grand Rapids interviews and obviously accepts DOs without USMLE scores. If your COMLEX scores are average or below, I'd take the USMLE to prove that you can do better on a test. Otherwise, if you have strong COMLEX scores, it shouldn't really matter.

I never got the impression that INDY was not DO friendly as a program.

Good luck with your interviews and applications. I look forward to meeting some of you.

So if I am a little bit above the average(506) you recommend taking USMLE step I or II?? or both? thanks for your input.

 

[AR1776]

I had heard that althought Michigan is very DO friendly that all EM programs in that state require an internship year making all the 1-3 programs now 4 years for DO's only. So I left them all out of my ERAS.

 

[docflanny]

That is true. As a DO, there are five states that require an osteopathic or allopathic internship (that meets the AOA requirements- ie. family practice, peds, IM, surgery, OB, like the traditional rotating internship for MDs). Five states: PA, FL, MI, WV, OK. If you want to practice in any of these states you must have an AOA approved internship or jump through a lot of hoops. Even if you're an attending for 15 years, rumor has it, that if you've not done an AOA approved internship you won't practice in these five states.

The philosophy behind it is to make DOs in well-rounded and to see the complex relationships between other organ systems as they might relate to your specialty. Apparently a rotating internship was required for all MDs prior to the 1970s.

Politically, a big force for requiring the osteopathic internship is to ensure that osteopathic programs are filled...by requiring and internship you're more likely to stay at that same hospital for residency.

All in all, for DOs doing EM...the current status is that DOs in DO EM residencies are all 4 years long. So, the only way you'd be an EM physician without doing 4 years is get into an allopathic program that isn't in one of the 5 states. (There are some unique exceptions where DOs have not had to do an internship in one of the 5 states- the SDN moderator Quinn, for example).

In regards to a COMLEX score of 500 and trying to get into a allopathic residency, I'd recommend either killing your COMLEX II (above 80th percentile) or taking and doing well on the USMLE.

 

[HoodyHoo]

That is true. As a DO, there are five states that require an osteopathic or allopathic internship (that meets the AOA requirements- ie. family practice, peds, IM, surgery, OB, like the traditional rotating internship for MDs). Five states: PA, FL, MI, WV, OK. If you want to practice in any of these states you must have an AOA approved internship or jump through a lot of hoops. Even if you're an attending for 15 years, rumor has it, that if you've not done an AOA approved internship you won't practice in these five states.

The philosophy behind it is to make DOs in well-rounded and to see the complex relationships between other organ systems as they might relate to your specialty. Apparently a rotating internship was required for all MDs prior to the 1970s.

Politically, a big force for requiring the osteopathic internship is to ensure that osteopathic programs are filled...by requiring and internship you're more likely to stay at that same hospital for residency.

All in all, for DOs doing EM...the current status is that DOs in DO EM residencies are all 4 years long. So, the only way you'd be an EM physician without doing 4 years is get into an allopathic program that isn't in one of the 5 states. (There are some unique exceptions where DOs have not had to do an internship in one of the 5 states- the SDN moderator Quinn, for example).

In regards to a COMLEX score of 500 and trying to get into a allopathic residency, I'd recommend either killing your COMLEX II (above 80th percentile) or taking and doing well on the USMLE.

Our DME just told us that the AOA will no longer be requiring the traditional intern year starting in 2008. However, it will be at the discretion of each individual program whether they want to keep that year or not.

The plus side is that if you do an allopathic residency in one of these five states you can throw out the traditional year.

 

[docflanny]

Is that in print from the AOA yet? That'd be great news to a lot of DO students. Will the osteopathic EM-bound DOs be cut to 3 years as well? I heard rumors of that a few years ago.

 

[wook]

Is that in print from the AOA yet? That'd be great news to a lot of DO students. Will the osteopathic EM-bound DOs be cut to 3 years as well? I heard rumors of that a few years ago.

I have heard this for awhile too. Is there anything formal about it yet?

Also, does this mean that the "Magic" States will remove that requirement?


Wook

 

[HoodyHoo]

I have heard this for awhile too. Is there anything formal about it yet?

Also, does this mean that the "Magic" States will remove that requirement?


Wook

Not sure if it is in print and i'm not sure if it will affect the length of EM residencies. However, it came straight out of the mouth of our DME at our hospital so I'm assuming he knows what he's talking about....let's hope so anyway.

I guess this may reduce a lot of EM programs to 3 years. I'll email an osteo program and let you know what they say.

And yes, I also think this means you can practice in one of the five "magical" states w/o having the required intern year.

 

[DrQuinn]

I guess this may reduce a lot of EM programs to 3 years. I'll email an osteo program and let you know what they say.

I doubt this very much.
Q

 

[californiasky]

so are all the allopathic programs in MI going to reject DO applicants? or are there some programs that aren't doing that.

what about pennsylvania since it's one of "those states"?

what about the programs that have both DO/MD EM residencies? Can a DO apply to the allopathic only and be considered without applying to the DO program?

 

[docflanny]

Well, the only combined MD/DO program in MI is at MSU (Sparrow/Ingham) which is a 4 year program for DOs and 3 year program for MDs. You still do a 1 year internship and are "linked" to the program ie. don't have to apply again. I'm not sure about the other MI allopathic programs, but I would suspect, by default, they'd require a AOA approved internship too or maybe you'd be able to receive residency training, but never be able to practice in MI or the four other states (including moonlighting). Let me know if you hear otherwise.

 

[kalico]

Newark Beth Israel and Albert Einstein in Philly are dual accredited (MD/DO)...

Newark makes you do an extra year before joining the MD PGY-1s = 4 years
I believe Einstein is still 3 years total.

 

[tkim]

so are all the allopathic programs in MI going to reject DO applicants? or are there some programs that aren't doing that.

Got rejected by one MI program because I didn't have the TRI done. I withdrew from the rest. Apparently it's state law you must do one before enter allo residency.

The other four states don't require the TRI to enter their residencies, but you won't be licensed in those states.

 

[wook]

I believe Einstein is still 3 years total.

I may be mistaken on this, but Einstein Philly is a 4 year program whether DO or MD.

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,1104121122,00.html


Wook

 

[californiasky]

I may be mistaken on this, but Einstein Philly is a 4 year program whether DO or MD.

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,1104121122,00.html


Wook

so if you are a DO and apply to the allopathic match for this program, will they wonder why you didnt apply to the osteo match?

 

[californiasky]

Got rejected by one MI program because I didn't have the TRI done. I withdrew from the rest. Apparently it's state law you must do one before enter allo residency.

The other four states don't require the TRI to enter their residencies, but you won't be licensed in those states.

So are we saying that this is true of EVERY MI EM program? should i not even bother applying in MI?

 

[Beantown D.O.]

That is true. As a DO, there are five states that require an osteopathic or allopathic internship (that meets the AOA requirements- ie. family practice, peds, IM, surgery, OB, like the traditional rotating internship for MDs). Five states: PA, FL, MI, WV, OK. If you want to practice in any of these states you must have an AOA approved internship or jump through a lot of hoops. Even if you're an attending for 15 years, rumor has it, that if you've not done an AOA approved internship you won't practice in these five states.

The philosophy behind it is to make DOs in well-rounded and to see the complex relationships between other organ systems as they might relate to your specialty. Apparently a rotating internship was required for all MDs prior to the 1970s.

Politically, a big force for requiring the osteopathic internship is to ensure that osteopathic programs are filled...by requiring and internship you're more likely to stay at that same hospital for residency.

All in all, for DOs doing EM...the current status is that DOs in DO EM residencies are all 4 years long. So, the only way you'd be an EM physician without doing 4 years is get into an allopathic program that isn't in one of the 5 states. (There are some unique exceptions where DOs have not had to do an internship in one of the 5 states- the SDN moderator Quinn, for example).

In regards to a COMLEX score of 500 and trying to get into a allopathic residency, I'd recommend either killing your COMLEX II (above 80th percentile) or taking and doing well on the USMLE.

DocFlanny,

thanks for the PM. I want to ask this for the entire forum. So a 80th percentile in COMLEX I, and 70th percentile in COMLEX II probably won't hurt chances. Probably no need for USMLE with those scores?

How about for the few folks who have completed an internship and done well on COMLEX III? Since most people (obviously, this is a gross generalization) take the last step just to "pass", I wonder how much COMLEX III plays into the selection for interviews? Thanks!

Beantown

 

[kalico]

You're right, I confused Einstein-Philly with something else. It is 4 years with them and 4 years with Newark (Newark makes you do the osteopathic year first 1+3).

-K

I may be mistaken on this, but Einstein Philly is a 4 year program whether DO or MD.

http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/pgm/0,1238,1104121122,00.html


Wook

 

[DrQuinn]

DocFlanny,

thanks for the PM. I want to ask this for the entire forum. So a 80th percentile in COMLEX I, and 70th percentile in COMLEX II probably won't hurt chances. Probably no need for USMLE with those scores?

How about for the few folks who have completed an internship and done well on COMLEX III? Since most people (obviously, this is a gross generalization) take the last step just to "pass", I wonder how much COMLEX III plays into the selection for interviews? Thanks!

Beantown

I can't imagine COMLEX III having any effect on residency applications at all. During my allopathic residency, most of my MD colleagues didn't do the USMLE III until PGY2 or PGY3, so it really never is a factor, i.e. the PD never saw the scores. Plus, it doesn't really matter what your scores are, as long as you pass (since you just need to pass to get your license).

Q

 

[wook]

so if you are a DO and apply to the allopathic match for this program, will they wonder why you didnt apply to the osteo match?

I can't answer how seriously the wonder about this, but do know that they asked me if I had applied through the osteopathic match process in addition to the allo match. They didn't say anything else when I told them "no" with a brief explanation.


Wook

 

[docflanny]

In general, while only a pass is needed for your boards, it tends to be reassuring to residency programs that you didn't struggle to get that pass and will have a high likelihood of doing well on future tests. As Quinn said most candidates will not have their COMLEX III or Step III done when applying to residency, because most candidates are straight out of being MS4s. If you did well on COMLEX III that may help your application somewhat. 70 and 80%tile are respectable scores...all in all...your boards just get you in the door it's how you interview and the other strengths that you bring to the table that earns you a spot.

 

[HoodyHoo]

I doubt this very much.
Q

If the traditional year is taken away(or not required) for 2008, why wouldn't this reduce some of the programs from 4 to 3 years??????? considering that one of those years is the TRI year and it will no longer be required?

 

[Thousandth]

I have heard it through the grape vine that the DO program at St. Josephs in MI will drop the internship and convert to a 3 year. (I am rotating at this hospital so I think it is reliable gossip ). I think most DO programs will chose to go this way in order to be more attractive to applicants. It just follows the AMA trend to 3 years as opposed to a 1-4 or 2-4 format.

 

[DrQuinn]

If the traditional year is taken away(or not required) for 2008, why wouldn't this reduce some of the programs from 4 to 3 years??????? considering that one of those years is the TRI year and it will no longer be required?

I was referring to the DO EM programs that are traditionally 4 years (1 + 3). The feeling I get from the DO profession is to use the residents adn their workload as long as possible. Getting an extra year's worth of residents really behooves the hospital the program is associated with. So most of hte hospitals would keep the 4 years total.

The GME system for DOs is vastly different from MDs.

Q

 

[wook]

I have heard it through the grape vine that the DO program at St. Josephs in MI will drop the internship and convert to a 3 year. (I am rotating at this hospital so I think it is reliable gossip ). I think most DO programs will chose to go this way in order to be more attractive to applicants. It just follows the AMA trend to 3 years as opposed to a 1-4 or 2-4 format.

I'm hoping programs will drop this internship year, but the way the president communicated in his blog, it is not likely to happen....

-----------------------------------------------------
AOA President's Blog
Home Archives About About DOs
Tuesday, September 26, 2006
The Osteopathic Internship is Here to Stay
During my travels this year, I've gotten several questions from osteopathic medical students about the osteopathic internship. Apparently there's a rumor floating around that the osteopathic internship may be eliminated. There are no plans to eliminate the osteopathic internship. It is simply undergoing a restructuring that will eliminate confusion associated with the current set-up and provide students with continuity throughout their osteopathic postdoctoral years.

Details of the proposed change [which was a resolution brought before the 2006 House of Delegates by the AOA's Council on Postdoctoral Training (COPT)] are being worked out by the COPT, which meets next on November 4th.

The first class to be affected by this change will be the class of 2008.

Check back on DO-Online periodically for updates.
-------------


Wook

 

[Thousandth]

OK so I got corrected yesterday. No Osteopathic internships are not going away (crap!!). They are simply re-wording things so all PGY-1's are called interns, along with some other junk hand wavey crap. However I did hear it that at the AOA convention in October the ACOEP will be voiting to condense Osteopathic EM residencies down to 3 years total (thats including the internship) as opposed to the 4 year now. Anyone heard this before?

 

[AR1776]

I'm only applying to allopathic EM residencies. IF, IF I don't match, in order to scramble for both allopathic and osteopathic EM residency spot do I need to register for the osteopathic match? I have applied for and DO residencies and I don't plan on ranking any (obviously).

I hear rumors I might need to register for the osteo mathc so I have scrambling opportunities. If so I'd need to do that soon.
Any thoughts?

 

[VALSALVA]

(obviously).

I hear rumors I might need to register for the osteo mathc so I have scrambling opportunities. If so I'd need to do that soon.
Any thoughts?

Is this true? Is there anyone who knows the answer to this who would care to indulge?

Thanks,

VAL

 

[kalico]

When some alumni came to talk to us, they said that in order to get the osteopathic scramble "list" you have to have at least applied to one osteopathic program even if you don't end up ranking them.

I am not sure what happens if you don't scramble until the MD match is over, since the list will certainly have changed by then.

HTH

 

[DO168]

Unless they have DO's in every year and your Comlex are Stellar. Take the USMLE's. At least step 2. I've been thanked for taking them on both interviews so far.