Sanman
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I don't think it's inherently inappropriate to comment on attractiveness. I do, in our current world, think it has the potential to increase various risks even when done carefully and appropriately. I have only moderate risk tolerance. But if it impacts the conceptualization, I say it's fair game.Since the literature, to include meta-analysis, says that attractiveness affects:
1) Perception of personality
2) Perceptions of competence
3) Perceptions of intelligence
4) Income
I don't know how "inappropriate" it is to comment on a clinically meaningful thing.
And before anyone says anything about gender, the literature says it works for both genders.
And before anyone says anything about subjectivity, the literature does not support that position.
Come on. I'm a lot of things, and have a lot of flaws, but this is not motivated by sexism.
There are similar lines of literature for rich people.
Noncomprehensive Sources:
Budesheim, T. L. and S. J. DePaola (1994). "Beauty or the Beast? The Effects of Appearance, Personality, and Issue Information on Evaluations of Political Candidates." Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 20(4): 339-348.
Doorley, K. and E. Sierminska (2015). "Myth or fact? The beauty premium across the wage distribution in Germany." Economics Letters 129: 29-34.
Feingold, A. (1992). "Good-looking people are not what we think." Psychological Bulletin 111(2): 304-341.
Langlois, J. H., et al. (2000). "Maxims or myths of beauty? A meta-analytic and theoretical review." Psychol Bull 126(3): 390-423.
Ramsey, J. L. and J. H. Langlois (2002). "Effects of the “Beauty Is Good” Stereotype on Children's Information Processing." Journal of Experimental Child Psychology 81(3): 320-340.
Scholz, J. K. and K. Sicinski (2015). "Facial Attractiveness and Lifetime Earnings: Evidence from a Cohort Study." The Review of Economics and Statistics 97(1): 14-28.
Zebrowitz, L. A., et al. (2002). "Looking Smart and Looking Good: Facial Cues to Intelligence and their Origins." Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 28(2): 238-249.
I'd probably go with "well built" for that oneIt's so subjective, though. Like if I saw Jason Momoa in my office, I would not remark on his being attractive, but as you know there are plenty of people who would think he is attractive.
Except the literature shows that even infants prefer attractive people, and that attractiveness can be empirically derived, partially through facial symmetry and hip:waist ratio.It's so subjective, though. Like if I saw Jason Momoa in my office, I would not remark on his being attractive, but as you know there are plenty of people who would think he is attractive.
In my mind, that is the exact kind of person who would comment on a patient’s attractiveness in a mental status exam lolThis discussion of inappropriate things to say reminds me of when my daughter was getting married and posted a picture wearing her wedding dress on Facebook and an old “friend” from high school said, “wow! She looks hot!” My wife said I needed to unfriend him. lol
I’m so triggered because I know, or at least know of, a few folks like this in our field who are not as good at hiding their tendencies as they think they are. Whatever you do, just don’t be a creepy and lecherous psychologist because word gets around.I used to listen a radio show on XM. They had a reoccurring discussion about how some dudes just have a pervert button they can't stop of hitting...
There are a lot of things that affect how we are perceived out in the world, but I’m still failing to see how attractiveness would come to bear in a treatment or evaluation context, unless the purpose for the treatment or evaluation is that the person is experiencing some sort of distress or impairment because of how people treat them based on their looks. But that would be a very specific context that requires the issue of their attractiveness to be discussed.Since the literature, to include meta-analysis, says that attractiveness affects:
1) Perception of personality
2) Perceptions of competence
3) Perceptions of intelligence
4) Income
I don't know how "inappropriate" it is to comment on a clinically meaningful thing.
And before anyone says anything about gender, the literature says it works for both genders.
And before anyone says anything about subjectivity, the literature does not support that position.
Come on. I'm a lot of things, and have a lot of flaws, but this is not motivated by sexism.
There are similar lines of literature for rich people.
Noncomprehensive Sources:
Budesheim, T. L. and S. J. DePaola (1994). "Beauty or the Beast? The Effects of Appearance, Personality, and Issue Information on Evaluations of Political Candidates." Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 20(4): 339-348.
Doorley, K. and E. Sierminska (2015). "Myth or fact? The beauty premium across the wage distribution in Germany." Economics Letters 129: 29-34.
Feingold, A. (1992). "Good-looking people are not what we think." Psychological Bulletin 111(2): 304-341.
Langlois, J. H., et al. (2000). "Maxims or myths of beauty? A meta-analytic and theoretical review." Psychol Bull 126(3): 390-423.
Ramsey, J. L. and J. H. Langlois (2002). "Effects of the “Beauty Is Good” Stereotype on Children's Information Processing." Journal of Experimental Child Psychology 81(3): 320-340.
Scholz, J. K. and K. Sicinski (2015). "Facial Attractiveness and Lifetime Earnings: Evidence from a Cohort Study." The Review of Economics and Statistics 97(1): 14-28.
Zebrowitz, L. A., et al. (2002). "Looking Smart and Looking Good: Facial Cues to Intelligence and their Origins." Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin 28(2): 238-249.
1) I think you have a reasoned position.There are a lot of things that affect how we are perceived out in the world, but I’m still failing to see how attractiveness would come to bear in a treatment or evaluation context, unless the purpose for the treatment or evaluation is that the person is experiencing some sort of distress or impairment because of how people treat them based on their looks. But that would be a very specific context that requires the issue of their attractiveness to be discussed.
No matter what the literature says, I would be quite perturbed if I were looking through my medical records, and I see that my doctor or treatment provider (regardless of their gender) commented on my attractiveness for reasons not directly related to my reason for seeking treatment. Like how would you even defend that in a potential malpractice setting? I don’t think “the literature says people are treated differently based on how they look so I had to comment on the patient’s attractiveness” would go over well with the Board. You would still have to explain how it was relevant to the treatment you were providing, and not just your random musings.
Also, we usually don’t know what personal relationship or complexes folks have with and about their own aesthetic. So I would also consider the risk of doing unnecessary harm vs. necessary good by commenting on their attractiveness.
There are a lot of things that affect how we are perceived out in the world, but I’m still failing to see how attractiveness would come to bear in a treatment or evaluation context, unless the purpose for the treatment or evaluation is that the person is experiencing some sort of distress or impairment because of how people treat them based on their looks. But that would be a very specific context that requires the issue of their attractiveness to be discussed.
No matter what the literature says, I would be quite perturbed if I were looking through my medical records, and I see that my doctor or treatment provider (regardless of their gender) commented on my attractiveness for reasons not directly related to my reason for seeking treatment. Like how would you even defend that in a potential malpractice setting? I don’t think “the literature says people are treated differently based on how they look so I had to comment on the patient’s attractiveness” would go over well with the Board. You would still have to explain how it was relevant to the treatment you were providing, and not just your random musings.
Also, we usually don’t know what personal relationship or complexes folks have with and about their own aesthetic. So I would also consider the risk of doing unnecessary harm vs. necessary good by commenting on their attractiveness.
I’m so triggered because I know, or at least know of, a few folks like this in our field who are not as good at hiding their tendencies as they think they are. Whatever you do, just don’t be a creepy and lecherous psychologist because word gets around.
To be fair, there are many ways to be creepy. If I was to carry out @smalltownpsych's little experiment, I would love to see how people reacted to comments like:
"Your elbows are very aesthetically pleasing"
"Your choice to wear sensible shoes is a very attractive quality in a person"
Are you going to start Keds/Skechers foot fetish OnlyFans channel now?
My other thought is I would absolutely never put that I thought a patient was physically unattractive. I would note if they thought it, but I would never make that assessment myself for documentation.
I have had cases where there is a lot of physical damage to the person. I don't categorize it as attractiveness though. If I'm doing an assessment or intake, I'll put stuff in the medical section. Otherwise, it's still only as relevant as it is to the person. I guess I haven't structured my notes in a way that prioritizes notable physical traits beyond the bare minimum to appease the VA.I think this would really depend on the case. In general, no. However, what is a patient was in a fire or accident and had significant facial scarring. This can play into things like agoraphobia and be clinically relevant.
I have had cases where there is a lot of physical damage to the person. I don't categorize it as attractiveness though. If I'm doing an assessment or intake, I'll put stuff in the medical section. Otherwise, it's still only as relevant as it is to the person. I guess I haven't structured my notes in a way that prioritizes notable physical traits beyond the bare minimum to appease the VA.
If it is important, it usually comes out in session and I document it when it's brought up. A lot of my patients who are divorcing start thinking a lot about how they're perceived by others. Their perception of themselves and how they think about others perceiving them gives me a lot more to write about than my thoughts.
Just on a practical level, my thoughts are also very biased and I don't have a good mechanism for "calibrating" myself. I would be hard pressed to be able to articulate why I find someone attractive. I just kind of know? There is the baseline of "traditionally attractive," but I don't know that I trust myself to be able to discern when my own cultural and personal preferences sneak in. With other domains that I chart, I can do training and consulting and find a generally agreed upon anchor. This area just feels...too nebulous to be useful on a regular basis. If someone like Benedict Cumberbatch or David Tennant walked into my office...10/10. I have been told I'm wrong.
An accent and fashion sense immediately cloud my judgement.So the way you judge attractiveness is based on if they are from the UK and played a fictional doctor?
I don't know how "inappropriate" it is to comment on a clinically meaningful thing.
And before anyone says anything about gender, the literature says it works for both genders.
1) weirdly, I have been identified as the LGBTQIA friendly psychologist in my area. I have no idea why.Gasp! you said "both genders." Didn't you know there's like 100+?
An accent and fashion sense immediately cloud my judgement.
"Speech: Patient spoke with a pleasing North London accent"
I've always loved the hardy nature of the Quebecois accent myself.
I think the most interesting native english accent I've heard was Singlish (Singaporean English). The English fluency rate in Singapore is actually higher than the US. It was pretty damn interesting to hear but, like heavy Irish accents, it takes some serious immersion and getting used to as it can be thick.
All of this Singapore is making me miss Toast Box, chicken rice, and sambal fried rice.Where got problem with Singlish lah? Aiyah...
EDIT: It is actually a bit more of a proper creole language than an accent per se. The grammatical structure is significantly different than standard English, although the lexicon is English-based. There is also a Singaporean accent that exists but you can speak standard English with a Singaporean accent without speaking Singlish.
All of this Singapore is making me miss Toast Box, chicken rice, and sambal fried rice.
No hawker centers in New Mexico unfortunately.
How do you like new mexico? I almost took a job in Las Cruces to do 'tism work at a uni clinic...All of this Singapore is making me miss Toast Box, chicken rice, and sambal fried rice.
No hawker centers in New Mexico unfortunately.
If you asked me a year ago I would have said I hated it, but it grew on me pretty hard and I'll be sad this august going back to the Midwest for the PhD.How do you like new mexico? I almost took a job in Las Cruces to do 'tism work at a uni clinic...
Love the food. Found Las Cruces to be charming.
I've always loved the hardy nature of the Quebecois accent myself.
I think the most interesting native english accent I've heard was Singlish (Singaporean English). The English fluency rate in Singapore is actually higher than the US. It was pretty damn interesting to hear but, like heavy Irish accents, it takes some serious immersion and getting used to as it can be thick.
I think this would really depend on the case. In general, no. However, what is a patient was in a fire or accident and had significant facial scarring. This can play into things like agoraphobia and be clinically relevant.
It's a bad day to be able to know how to readWas just reviewing a patient's prior evaluation when they were a child and the psychologist described them as an attractive 10-year-old. It already felt odd for the adult patients...
Oh, it gets more interesting than that:Was just reviewing a patient's prior evaluation when they were a child and the psychologist described them as an attractive 10-year-old. It already felt odd for the adult patients...
I have a multidisciplinary team evaluation (MET) report about myself that describes ME as a attractive... For you ppl ignorant in the ways of school special education, the MET is the first step to getting individualized education plan (IEP), and they are mandated at least every three years.Was just reviewing a patient's prior evaluation when they were a child and the psychologist described them as an attractive 10-year-old. It already felt odd for the adult patients...
Jesus Antonio Christ.Was just reviewing a patient's prior evaluation when they were a child and the psychologist described them as an attractive 10-year-old. It already felt odd for the adult patients...
I would only comment on appearance in my summary section if it is related to a specific, new, recommendation that I am making (usually related to seeking out a pediatrician referral for genetics or neurology). All the kids I see are super cute so no need to comment on that! I start with a general statement of behavior, and then just get into the specific performance and symptom related stuff. I rotate between a few general descriptors- active; engaging; playful; quiet; curious; etc.. Dress is largely irrelevant to diagnosis, as the toddlers don't pick out their own clothes. If there is something "diagnostic" about their clothing (e.g., shoes too small because he'll only wear that specific pair; disney princess dress because child refuse to remove halloween costume) I'll definitely mention it. It's somewhat related to the dominant culture in the area I work, but most of these 2 year olds are impeccably dressed anyways, with the most incredible (and complex) hair styles. It's all pretty cool, but not related to the assessment so it has no real place in my report.I have a multidisciplinary team evaluation (MET) report about myself that describes ME as a attractive... For you ppl ignorant in the ways of school special education, the MET is the first step to getting individualized education plan (IEP), and they are mandated at least every three years.
Protip: if you are requesting school records, the IEP is most likely useless for psychology reasons. What you really want to request is the IEP and the MET. The review of existing evaluation data (sometimes called the "REED", which is a subsection of an IEP) can be useful, but most people slack on that part of the IEP. About the only useful part of an IEP is seeing how many minutes per week/month they're getting in certain areas - because that will tell you what the school thinks is important. IEP goals usually suck.
Maybe a thread about how to read an IEP/MET for psychologists and deal with schools/special education for those without school experience could be helpful.
I'd love to see your template or forms if you use any?I would only comment on appearance in my summary section if it is related to a specific, new, recommendation that I am making (usually related to seeking out a pediatrician referral for genetics or neurology). All the kids I see are super cute so no need to comment on that! I start with a general statement of behavior, and then just get into the specific performance and symptom related stuff. I rotate between a few general descriptors- active; engaging; playful; quiet; curious; etc.. Dress is largely irrelevant to diagnosis, as the toddlers don't pick out their own clothes. If there is something "diagnostic" about their clothing (e.g., shoes too small because he'll only wear that specific pair; disney princess dress because child refuse to remove halloween costume) I'll definitely mention it. It's somewhat related to the dominant culture in the area I work, but most of these 2 year olds are impeccably dressed anyways, with the most incredible (and complex) hair styles. It's all pretty cool, but not related to the assessment so it has no real place in my report.
IEP goals can be the worst. A long time ago I did a conference presentation on writing IEP goals where we presented real examples to and participants had to identify what actual behavioral outcomes were being measured. A personal favorite- "Student will apply cognitive skills to the area of woodworking technology"