Comments and advice for a 4th round applicant, thank you

[mediocreangel]

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Hi! I wanted to solicit opinions, comments, and advice on my current road to becoming a physician. Getting into school has been difficult to say the least and now contemplating my 4th try, I'm unsure whether I am applying too soon after my 3rd try and if my stats and experiences are sufficient. I would be grateful for some additional opinions. Thanks!

1st round
At the end of Junior year of college, I took the MCAT, studied on my own using hand me down materials from Kaplan and Princeton review and ended up with a 30P (11BS 11PS 8VR). However, I knew nothing of the application process and being naive, did not to ask more then a handful of people about the process, applied to <10 schools, applied late, and applied to too many reach schools. At the time I had about 6 months of research experience, 6 months of hospital volunteering, solid letters of recommendation and my science and accumulative GPA were both 3.3. One interview, one wait-list, no acceptance. The interview was at my state school and not getting in wasn't a complete surprise. They said my MCAT score was okay and recommended volunteering more and doing more research.

2nd round
Senior year of college, I applied with the same MCAT score but having asked more people about the process, gone through the process once, and having found studentdoctor.net, I applied earlier, to ~20 schools. This time around I had over a year of research experience (one publication and a handful pending), over a year of hospital volunteering, one new letter of recommendation, and my science and accumulative GPA were both 3.5. I got 5 interviews from mid to high tier schools (incl. state school), 3 wait-lists, and no acceptances. The state school told me I needed to volunteer more and improve my MCAT score.

3rd round
One year after college, I applied with basically the same application but added one new letter of recommendation and additional experiences now included a year of working in a hospital, a year of volunteering at a inner-city tutoring center, and the pending publications were now published.

I applied concurrently to schools of public health during my 3rd round of medical school applications because my interests in community medicine and infectious diseases. After so many medical school rejections from round 1 and 2, I was surprised but thankful to receive acceptances to the top 5 programs.

I received only one interview (state med school) and was wait-listed and not accepted. I am currently studying for an MPH at one of the top 5 public health schools.

4th round (current round, and one year removed from my 3rd try)
To recap...
>1yr hospital volunteering
>1yr hospital working
>2yr misc. volunteering (overseas social work, local tutor)
>1yr misc. jobs (office, tutor, special-ed teacher)
>2yr research (abstracts, publications, and conference)
3.5GPA with a BS in Biology
3.8GPA for my first year MPH in Biostatistics
32O (10PS 11BS 11VR), retook the MCAT before starting the graduate program.
Will get fresh letters of recommendation from my graduate professors and adviser.

Suggestions please, thank you.

 

[fahimaz7]

It's only a matter of time till you get accepted. Does your state have an EDP option? Are you against DO schools?

 

[fahimaz7]

It's only a matter of time till you get accepted. Does your state have an EDP option? Are you against DO schools?

It took me three times to get accepted and I haves similar stats as you.

UG GPA 3.4
MCAT 30Q (2004) & 31Q (2007)
Graduate school in Cell and Molecular Biology (Immunology/Oncology bench top research MS degree)
Grad GPA 3.9

Accepted EDP to my in-state school (first choice as well).

🙂

 

[mediocreangel]

My state does not offer EDP. Actually, by applying three times to my state school, I am barred from applying a fourth time. I'm not sure if it is possible to appeal that decision with proof of significant changes to my application.

I'm hoping to apply to community health oriented schools and OHSU is my top choice. While I sent my primaries to them three times I have gone through their application process once (rejected post-secondary).

I am against DO schools because the half a dozen or so folks I know who went to a DO school dropped out and are now in MD or Ph.D. programs. Their stories, in addition to the stories of folks who have enjoyed the DO experience have influenced my decision not to pursue a DO education.

Is the school you are attending a very community health oriented school? Do you think studying for an MPH is a pro or con on my application? Should I stay on and complete a Ph.D. before applying into a medical program? Ultimately I want to practice both clinic medicine and research (academic and non-profit).

 

[fahimaz7]

From what I have read, a MPH doesn't really do much for your application. Since the classes are very different from the medical curriculum, the completion of that degree doesn't give the committee confidence that you will be able to hand the first two years. Normally a SMP or something like that helps students address any concerns that the admissons committee may have a candidates potential to excel in the medical sciences.

With that said, I think continuing with your education is a fantastic idea and I would support anything that helps you get to where you want to be (community medicine/public health). It shows dedication to the field, a continued interest in higher education, and it will eventually help you as a professor of medicine or public health official (MD, MPH).

🙂

You'll get in eventually. I'm not sure why you haven't such a hard time.

 

[nlax30]

I agree that eventually you should get in somewhere, but you might as well finish up what you've started now and see the MPH through.

That said, whether or not you apply DO is totally your decision, but I would encourage you not to base that decision on what a handful of students who LEFT DO schools have told you. I'm sure we've all had numerous physicians tell us to stay away from medicine in general, but we still thought through it and made the decision for ourself. You may have already thought long and hard about, but in case you haven't I just wanted to say don't avoid that option just b/c of the opinions of some unhappy students. You'd find students like that probably at ANY school, MD or DO.... I know I've had some friends at MD schools here who warned me about certain aspects of the school, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[glamqueen]

I know this is a huge pain in the butt, but is there any way you can change state residencies? Seriously? I don't know what state you are from, but I would leave it as soon as you can and set up residency in somewhere like Texas - a state that is every pre-med's dream state to be from. Florida is another good one from what I've heard from other people. I understand you are in school, but can you transfer your perm address somewhere else and do all of the ridiculous hoops most people go through to make a state "their own" (license, new address, bills in their name to new address, voter id - whatever). Just do what it takes, but I would find a new state in order to have a state school consider you.

I'm so sorry things have gone so rough. Your app sounds awesome to me. Your MCAT is a good score. I wish you the best of luck. Change your residency immediately, and submit the second you can this cycle.

 

[mediocreangel]

Thanks for all the encouragement and advice.
I do plan to see the MPH through. The reason I am here in the first place is the MPH offers a set of tools that will be very practical and useful as a community medicine oriented practice in addition to academics.
I'll go ahead and apply this round and if I don't get in, apply again after the Ph.D.
What I forgot to mention was every round I applied, I was applying to MD. MPH programs.
Thanks again everybody.

 

[slick27]

"I am against DO schools because the half a dozen or so folks I know who went to a DO school dropped out and are now in MD or Ph.D."


I didn't know you could apply to MD schools once you started a DO program? Is this true?

 

[beckhunter116]

"I am against DO schools because the half a dozen or so folks I know who went to a DO school dropped out and are now in MD or Ph.D."


I didn't know you could apply to MD schools once you started a DO program? Is this true?

I believe that in your application, you must state whether you have matriculated at another medical school. Most advice on this is that med. schools really frown upon this though, so I wonder how many went to MD and how many went the Ph.D route.

 

[rkaz]

This post may come off as a bit harsh... though I don't mean any offense at all, but I must confess that I am stunned at your post. You say you won't apply to DO schools, as you are concerned about those who have dropped out. Well, nearly all people who enter med school stay in med school. Although I don't have actual numbers to back this up, I read on another forum once that only about 1-3% of students of US schools drop out.

So because of this 1-3% chance that you might drop out... you are putting yourself through the application process a fourth time, and not only that, you are thinking of getting a PhD first? I honestly wonder about your real desire to be a doctor. Obviously there is no guarantee that you will get accepted to a DO school. It's just that your stats seem quite reasonable for those accepted to DO schools. With your experiences, you obviously know how difficult the application process is, so I can't understand why not maximize the chance of being accepted as much as possible? I applied this year and went through the entire process for the first time... and I am beyond thrilled to have been accepted to a few DO schools (with an MD waitlist). I would be beyond exhausted to have to go through this process again. The idea of going through this process 4 times and then end up getting a PhD before med school just blows my mind... especially as you could have been a 2nd or 3rd year med student by now if you had applied to DO schools earlier. Are you really serious about becoming a physician? After applying to med schools 4 times and then completing a PhD... I'd imagine most of us would be too exhausted to then consider starting med school. If you are perfectly fine being a clinical researcher, then this is totally a viable option. But for someone really wanting to be a doctor, I'm sure that person will do whatever he/she could to get into a medical school... as being a PhD just wouldn't cut it if you want to practice medicine. If you are accepted to a DO school and matriculate there, I'd say there is at least a 95% chance you'd end up graduating and becoming a physician. On the other hand, if you go for a PhD first, you will still be wondering that entire 4 years of school whether you'd be able to get into med school or not. Furthermore, with the admissions stats of DO schools increasing significantly, it may be more and more difficult to get into either MD or DO schools in the future.

If your main concern about DO schools is your interest in research, then I could understand you applying only to MD schools (the first or maybe even second time....though definitely not the 3rd and 4th times) . However, even though DO schools aren't as research oriented, most DO schools do have research opportunities. There are even dual DO/PhD programs where you could simultaneously get accepted to both. http://www.aacom.org/InfoFor/phadvisors/Documents/DO Joint Degree Programs.pdf

Anyways, I apologize if my post sounds harsh in any way, as that's not intended. I am just flabbergasted... hence the rant. I realize that you seem pretty set in your opinion, so probably my post wouldn't do much to sway you.... but I figured it might also help someone in your situation who has applied multiple times and feels hopeless. I hardly knew much about DO schools last year, but the more I got to learn about them, the more I realized it was an excellent option for medical school. Good luck!

 

[dragonfly99]

OP, something is wrong. You should have been getting more interviews the last time you applied. The GPA is below average but not terrible, and the MCAT is all right, though not great.

If being a MD is what you want, I wouldn't do a PhD. It will just sidetrack you from where you need to be. It sounds like you maybe don't have quite as much hospital volunteer experience as the schools want...also, make sure that you put how many hours you did in the application. They usually want several hundred.

I would go back to your undergrad premed advisor(s) and show them your application from the last time you applied, and ask what to do. You need to write a personal statement that rocks, and explains how you are interested in public health + medicine, and really sells you as an applicant.

I agree with considering changing your state residency, particularly if the state school won't consider your application any more, which I think is asinine. Otherwise, I think you should appeal their decision not to consider your application any more.

With the 3.5 GPA, I'm wondering if you had lower grades in organic chem and upper level bio courses, perhaps something that makes the adcom wonder if you can handle med school? Perhaps your LOR's were not good, if you got so few interviews the last time you tried to get in. Something isn't adding up, unless you tried to apply to too many higher tier schools.

With your interest in public health, I would try applying to schools that emphasize that...and/all primary care oriented schools, plus maybe Emory for a "reach" school.

I think you should hurry up and reapply before your MCAT score expires.

If you really don't want to go DO, then consider going to St George or SABA in the Caribbean, or an Irish med school or something. I can't see waiting much longer on this, and given that your MCAT score is all right and it seems you want to do something with primary care or public health, I don't think that getting back into the US to do some sort of primary care residency will be super hard. It's not the first/best option, but personally I'd pick going abroad over spending 4-5 years doing a PhD.

 

[slick27]

I'd get in somewhere, DO or MD before that 30 MCAT becomes expired. I would think it would be already since you're going on your fourth application cycle. I can understand what you're going through. I applied four times to get into medical school. My first cycle I had two MD waitlists and one DO acceptance. I was going to go to the DO school, but I called the director of addmissions to one of the MD programs (which was my first choice) and he said that I would get in the following year and they look favorably towards waitlisted reapplicants. But, I didn't get in. I learned a very important lesson that year. Don't believe what the people in admissions tell you. The third application cycle I applied and was waitlisted at one MD and one DO school. I didn't get off either waitlist. The forth time I got into one DO school and I am happy to be moving on with the rest of my life.

 

[nlax30]

I'd get in somewhere, DO or MD before that 30 MCAT becomes expired. I would think it would be already since you're going on your fourth application cycle. I can understand what you're going through. I applied four times to get into medical school. My first cycle I had two MD waitlists and one DO acceptance. I was going to go to the DO school, but I called the director of addmissions to one of the MD programs (which was my first choice) and he said that I would get in the following year and they look favorably towards waitlisted reapplicants. But, I didn't get in. I learned a very important lesson that year. Don't believe what the people in admissions tell you. The third application cycle I applied and was waitlisted at one MD and one DO school. I didn't get off either waitlist. The forth time I got into one DO school and I am happy to be moving on with the rest of my life.

Ouch, how much did that sting?

Not quite as bad, but I was very heavily encouraged to apply early decision at one of my state MD schools and never heard a word from them, they actually blew right past the official EDP deadline when they're supposed to notify ED applicants and that whole thing with them just left a bad taste in my mouth. My MCAT was fine for this school (over 30), I just think someone there couldn't look past my ~3.3-3.4 GPA.

But congrats on the acceptance and the ability to now move on and get on with the fun part!

 

[slick27]

Ouch, how much did that sting?

Not quite as bad, but I was very heavily encouraged to apply early decision at one of my state MD schools and never heard a word from them, they actually blew right past the official EDP deadline when they're supposed to notify ED applicants and that whole thing with them just left a bad taste in my mouth. My MCAT was fine for this school (over 30), I just think someone there couldn't look past my ~3.3-3.4 GPA.

But congrats on the acceptance and the ability to now move on and get on with the fun part!

What really pissed me off was not that it was MD school, but it was the school that I really wanted to go to. It was close to home, cheaper, and the place where I think I might like to practice. But, overall I think this was the reason I didn't get in my third year, since my patience for applications was gone and I had a pretty negative outlook on medical school. Then, I became and EMT and my out looked changed and this helped me interview better for my forth application cycle.

 

[Terpskins99]

I'd get in somewhere, DO or MD before that 30 MCAT becomes expired. I would think it would be already since you're going on your fourth application cycle. I can understand what you're going through. I applied four times to get into medical school. My first cycle I had two MD waitlists and one DO acceptance. I was going to go to the DO school, but I called the director of addmissions to one of the MD programs (which was my first choice) and he said that I would get in the following year and they look favorably towards waitlisted reapplicants. But, I didn't get in. I learned a very important lesson that year. Don't believe what the people in admissions tell you. The third application cycle I applied and was waitlisted at one MD and one DO school. I didn't get off either waitlist. The forth time I got into one DO school and I am happy to be moving on with the rest of my life.

Wow, that really sucks. 😡 But I totally agree. You can't trust anyone.

Unfortunately, these shenanigans continue throughout medical school (e.g. when you apply for residency). Always keep that housed in the back of your mind.

To the OP... I know this isn't a popular option in the forums, but have you considered a 1 year post-bac program? It does sound like you're doing/have done just about everything else you would need to do to make yourself as competitive as possible. Eventually, you're going to have to come to the reality that an allopathic program is just not likely at this point. The competition keeps growing each year (especially with this economy). If an allopathic program hasn't taken you in the first 3 attempts, what makes you think anything at this point will tip the scales a 4th time?

As a DO, I believe you should consider an alternative route to becoming a physician (be it DO/Caribb MD/Overseas MD). If its US allopathic MD or nothing for you, then I really feel you should re-evaluate your reasons for wanting to join this profession.

 

[Bitsy]

I also wanted to add that another thing that may be hurting you is that it sounds like from what you've told us that you haven't changed your application much recently. As the number of times you apply increases, your chances of getting into medical school go down (significantly after a few tries as evidenced by the fact that your state school won't even let you apply...which is stupid but anyways). Have you talked with any of the schools this last application cycle about what is lacking in your application? As someone else mentioned, doing an MPH (although an interest of yours) won't do much for increasing your odds of getting in b/c the classes don't have the rigorous basic science classes that you will have to face as a first year medical student. To add to this, doing a Ph.D is unlikely to help either (esp if it is in the same vein as the MPH is). I would contact schools you were rejected by last application cycle (if you haven't already) and find out what weaknesses they say in your application. To continue reapplying each year with little changed is going to likely be futile. Good luck with everything!!