Commuting in intern year

[pedstar09]

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Hi everyone,

There is a strong chance that I might end up commuting an hour each way if I end up at 3 out of my top 5 programs. The reason being my wife and I do want to live together and we want to try everything we can to make it work. She works/studies in a city that is hour away from this (proposed) mid-point city as well.

Is this worth it? Should I try this out for the first year and see where things go?

 

[pedstar09]

Pediatrics

 

[DrJavaSunflower]

It will be very tiring and if she's understanding, I think it's worth a try. What about moving to the midway so it's a half commute for you and for her?

 

[Law2Doc]

In some fields/rotations you may need to be there at 5am, and there will be some overnight calls where you will be driving home after no sleep for 24 h. So a shorter commute or finding a place to shack up near the hospital post-call might be a good idea.

 

[pedstar09]

It will be very tiring and if she's understanding, I think it's worth a try. What about moving to the midway so it's a half commute for you and for her?

This is midway point. The total distance between these two cities is 2 hours to begin with :'(

In some fields/rotations you may need to be there at 5am, and there will be some overnight calls where you will be driving home after no sleep for 24 h. So a shorter commute or finding a place to shack up near the hospital post-call might be a good idea.

That is what I figured. Either crash at a friend's place, get some zzz or crash in on-call room until you feel alright to drive

 

[Law2Doc]

... or crash in on-call room until you feel alright to drive

Make sure this is even an option -- where I did intern year they tended to clean these during the day so they'd be available at night-- the next team might not be appreciative of sleeping in your dirty sheets. Or the call room might become the "office" of the next person on call. And I have seen places where the call room is adjacent to or part of the resident lounge area in the daytime, so it might not be quiet.

 

[gutonc]

A friend of mine in residency had a similar issue. She was an IM resident and her husband was an Army EM resident at a program 2.5 hours away. They lived mid-way (ish...closer for her) and when either of them had intensive inpatient rotations, they'd get a crash pad for the month. Seemed to work out well enough for them but I can't imagine doing it. My 15 minute bike commute was almost too much for me most days.

 

[mvenus929]

One of my current chiefs commutes an hour each way, and has for at least the last 2 years. I imagine it would be more difficult intern and third year than second year, though it depends a bit on the structure of your program.

I'd recommend getting some sort of podcast for the commutes if this turns out to happen. You're losing 2 hours per day of possible study time, which can be very precious intern year.

 

[marsh20]

A friend of mine in residency had a similar issue. She was an IM resident and her husband was an Army EM resident at a program 2.5 hours away. They lived mid-way (ish...closer for her) and when either of them had intensive inpatient rotations, they'd get a crash pad for the month. Seemed to work out well enough for them but I can't imagine doing it. My 15 minute bike commute was almost too much for me most days.

The crashpad idea is nice and I remember doing it quite a bit when I was younger, but I remember it being hard to find a reasonably priced room to rent from someone you could trust.

 

[gutonc]

The crashpad idea is nice and I remember doing it quite a bit when I was younger, but I remember it being hard to find a reasonably priced room to rent from someone you could trust.

Around large teaching hospitals you can often find them. You could also AirBnB something as needed.

 

[christmasindr]

Hi everyone,

There is a strong chance that I might end up commuting an hour each way if I end up at 3 out of my top 5 programs. The reason being my wife and I do want to live together and we want to try everything we can to make it work. She works/studies in a city that is hour away from this (proposed) mid-point city as well.

Is this worth it? Should I try this out for the first year and see where things go?

What do you think about getting a small studio near the hospital? That way, you can be in the hospital on tough days and go home on easier days. Not sure if you literally have to spend EVERY night with your wife, but that's just an idea.

 

[doc05]

a long commute is a terrible idea, but doesn't look like you have any better options. unless your wife can e-commute?

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

Hi everyone,

There is a strong chance that I might end up commuting an hour each way if I end up at 3 out of my top 5 programs. The reason being my wife and I do want to live together and we want to try everything we can to make it work. She works/studies in a city that is hour away from this (proposed) mid-point city as well.

Is this worth it? Should I try this out for the first year and see where things go?

Dude take my advice. I did this in medical school. It's not worth it. It will break you. Trust me on this. Each thing on its own is stressful enough and a relationship is a beautiful flower that needs to be nourished. Don't drive an hour each way after working a long day and expect to be happy when you get home. And then expect that unhappiness to just spread through osmosis everywhere.

 

[j4pac]

Does your wife need to work? And dues she have to work two hours away? Is she an indentured slave or something?

 

[CopaceticOne]

Does your wife need to work? And dues she have to work two hours away? Is she an indentured slave or something?

Is it not possible that she WANTS to work in the similar way that the OP wants to work?

 

[j4pac]

Is it not possible that she WANTS to work in the similar way that the OP wants to work?

Well sometimes you have to do what best for the family. There is significant risk involved with what the OP is thinking. It could result in him doing poorly in residency and it has a good chance of having repercussions on their relationship.

In most cases...getting a med student through residency trumps all else. The debt is substantial and can commonly only be paid off if someone becomes residency trained.

 

[CopaceticOne]

Well sometimes you have to do what best for the family. There is significant risk involved with what the OP is thinking. It could result in him doing poorly in residency and it has a good chance of having repercussions on their relationship.

In most cases...getting a med student through residency trumps all else. The debt is substantial and can commonly only be paid off if someone becomes residency trained.

Not to get into a huge debate about it, because I understand and appreciate your line of reasoning... But... I have seen many, many marriages end because they were focused on the successes of one of the spouses. It all depends on the dynamic of the individual relationships and the professional (and personal) desires of both people. Resentment is a scary thing that can slowly fester for years and then quickly reach a point of no return for a relationship. And things get pretty ugly when the driving force is resentment.

However, if OP and their spouse have a relationship where they are willing to make the marriage the absolute top priority during raking discussions, then the possibility of the wife leaving her job should be on the table.

 

[J ROD]

It will be hard. I think it depends on how tough you are. I can drive an hr after working a 24 hr shift. I used to be up 30+ hrs driving around when flipping from 3rd to 1st shift while working 2 jobs. I also can get up at 3 am to be there at 5 am. Been there and done that. I think it should get easier as you go.

Personally, I think it really depends on you. It is not ideal but is doable.

 

[j4pac]

Not to get into a huge debate about it, because I understand and appreciate your line of reasoning... But... I have seen many, many marriages end because they were focused on the successes of one of the spouses. It all depends on the dynamic of the individual relationships and the professional (and personal) desires of both people. Resentment is a scary thing that can slowly fester for years and then quickly reach a point of no return for a relationship. And things get pretty ugly when the driving force is resentment.

However, if OP and their spouse have a relationship where they are willing to make the marriage the absolute top priority during raking discussions, then the possibility of the wife leaving her job should be on the table.

Oh, I agree. But if resentment is a real possibility...their relationship probably will fail anyway. This isn't about personal successes...it's about the greater good.

My wife is a resident, so we both have had to make significant sacrifices over the years. But if she was a med student applying to residency...I would move to the town that my wife matched. Not a chance that I would allow her to travel two hours per day while being a resident. It's not healthy for her professional development, our relationship, and quite frankly...driving two hours per day while sleep deprived is incredibly dangerous.

If I couldn't find a job...I would be unemployed. Not because I'm such a great guy...not because I care so much about my wife...not because any of this is fair. The reason is because it's what would be what's in the best interest of the family. You cannot risk having a family member in medicine not get through residency. It would be catastrophic.

 

[QofQuimica]

What do you think about getting a small studio near the hospital? That way, you can be in the hospital on tough days and go home on easier days. Not sure if you literally have to spend EVERY night with your wife, but that's just an idea.

This.

OP, you will often be working the equivalent of two FT jobs (~80 hours/week) as an intern, plus having to study for your in-service. I suggest you get two small apartments, one near your residency and one somewhere between. You go home on non-call days, ambulatory rotations, or days off, and you stay in your apartment by the hospital when on call or post-call for inpatient services. If your wife works a typical M-F schedule, she comes to stay with you on the weekends during your busier months.

 

[WingedOx]

Field?

Would be disastrous in mine.

Of course an hour commute for me would be a 20 min commute at the hours that SouthernSurgeon has to be at the hospital.

 

[J ROD]

This.

OP, you will often be working the equivalent of two FT jobs (~80 hours/week) as an intern, plus having to study for your in-service. I suggest you get two small apartments, one near your residency and one somewhere between. You go home on non-call days, ambulatory rotations, or days off, and you stay in your apartment by the hospital when on call or post-call for inpatient services. If your wife works a typical M-F schedule, she comes to stay with you on the weekends during your busier months.

Realistically, this is probably the best idea if the money works.

 

[pedstar09]

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for the great input. I should have also mentioned that she is a student who will have a year of her current masters program left after we start residency in that other city. So, no..she is not indebted for service to life. If she were to transfer to a program closer to my residency, it will be an additional 6 month, which does not make sense financially and educationally. I think sticking at her current university is the better deal for us.

I agree the sentiments. We are trying to prevent all the resentments and marriage problems as much as we can- especially ~6 months into our marriage!! She is very supportive and helpful. She will try and schedule her class and work in a way that she does not have to commute all days out of the week. That way, we can live near my residency program and she can commute via a bus only 3 or 4 days in a week?

I know this will be hard on her, but hey, it is only for ~30 weeks out of the year, probably for 3-4 days a week, right??

 

[j4pac]

Realistically, this is probably the best idea if the money works.

Agreed. I think that it is the only real option if the OP if the wife is unable to join him. Hopefully he matches in town so all of this is a non-factor.

Many moons ago, I was stationed in a town and my wife was applying to residency. She had two options, one in town and another another an hour and half away. She ranked two programs and matched at the program in town.

OP...I can see your angst since your wife is also in training. Splitting the difference is not a great idea. You should make being within 30-min drive time a priority. Your wife may be able to drive 1.5 hr both ways depending on the intensity of that program. It would only be for 6 months. She'll have to be the judge. Good luck.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

She's a student at a master's program? That's not a real job. She can drive. Agree with j4pac that you should move within 30 min of the hospital and let her drive the 1.5 hours. She needs to realize that her schedule is going to be nowhere near yours and she can afford to drive 3 hours the days she has class, especially if she can condense them so she doesn't have class 5 days a week.

It's not going to be nearly as hard on her as residency will be on you, especially if you have to drive 2 hours every day.

 

[RangerBob]

If my wife and I were in the same situation, I'd approach things based on the quality of the residency programs vs quality of her master's program and of that in the same city of my potential residency. If the residency programs are otherwise equal, I'd rank the programs allowing us to live near her program higher. If the other residency program was much better and there was a decent program for her to transfer to, we'd rank that option higher. While I know plenty of married couples live apart for some time, that wouldn't be acceptable to us. Neither would both of us having a 1hr commute (or her having a 1.5hr commute).

Consider is having two small apartments--one in each city (get a place near the hospital with a 10 minute commute--if it's a safe neighborhood, it's the best thing ever). On long days you each stay in your respective cities, which would suck, but then on light days or days off you stay at the same spot. If your wife can compress her coursework and work all in 3-4 days and stay the rest of the week in town with you, then despite each of you having a separate primary residency, you're really not living apart.

While I'm a proponent of minimizing debt as much as possible, if the option above doesn't work and if the other masters program(s) in the city you may match into is/are a good program, consider taking on the extra debt/time and have her transfer. If you have a one hour commute each way as an intern you will hardly see your wife, and you'll put yourself at risk for for a car accident when you're tired (unless you have a lot of money and can afford a second apartment--but then we get back to you not seeing your wife). A one hour commute is a long commute as a resident. But if you live closer, now your wife is looking at a very long commute on what sounds like would be a long day of work and coursework, which puts her in danger. I'm picturing my wife driving 1.5hrs each way, potentially all in the dark depending on how long her day is. For an entire year. Maybe I'm a worrier, but that would make me nervous. If there's a bus or a train she could take, that would change things.

 

[doc05]

a master's program isn't a real job. and it's mostly writing a thesis anyways, which she can do at home. live near your residency program.

 

[mimelim]

The gap between Pediatrics and Vascular Surgery is obviously huge, but there were times when I didn't feel safe driving home and slept at the hospital in a call room. And I live 1.5 miles (ie <5 min) away. I can't imagine driving 2 hours every day when you are working 60+ hours/week.

 

[Shikima]

Drowsy driving is drunk driving.

 

[j4pac]

OP...I would not recommend calling your wife's program "not a real job."

 

[QofQuimica]

OP...I would not recommend calling your wife's program "not a real job."

Agree. Besides the fundamental lack of respect that attitude shows for something that is important to her, one person's career isn't inherently more important than the other's just because it's *gasp* RESIDENCY. As someone who has gone through both residency and grad school, I can say from experience that there are some parts of residency that are more stressful/busier than others, and likewise for grad school. The person who is less busy at any particular time should be the one who picks up more of the slack. That will often mean she drives, since her schedule will likely be more flexible on the whole. But during the times when both of them are busy and can't drive, they may have to spend a few days or weeks apart. And when he's the one on a rotation with an easier schedule, he should give her a break from driving. Let's not overstate the case here; even residents get days off and have easier rotations where they can drive home every night. On his clinic months, for example.

 

[pedstar09]

I agree with the above statements a 100%. I have never stated that her grad school is not a "real job". If it came across that way, I did not intend it to be that way. I sincerely thank each and everyone of you for your time and valuable inputs! On to the match we go...!!

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Agree. Besides the fundamental lack of respect that attitude shows for something that is important to her, one person's career isn't inherently more important than the other's just because it's *gasp* RESIDENCY. As someone who has gone through both residency and grad school, I can say from experience that there are some parts of residency that are more stressful/busier than others, and likewise for grad school. The person who is less busy at any particular time should be the one who picks up more of the slack. That will often mean she drives, since her schedule will likely be more flexible on the whole. But during the times when both of them are busy and can't drive, they may have to spend a few days or weeks apart. And when he's the one on a rotation with an easier schedule, he should give her a break from driving. Let's not overstate the case here; even residents get days off and have easier rotations where they can drive home every night. On his clinic months, for example.

OP...I would not recommend calling your wife's program "not a real job."

Yeah I know you're responding to those of us who did call it "not a real job" and I stand by that. Those of us in residency have also "been in residency and grad school"...so not sure what's so different about your experience. There's also a significant portion of us who have gotten master's degrees in various subjects along the way as well, so I doubt you're speaking from some level everyone else doesn't get.

On average, residency will be more difficult than a master's program. It's just a fact. It's not that it's more important...he'll just work longer hours. Could I have commuted 3 hours every day for med school or other classes? Uh yeah, it would have sucked but it can be done. Pop in some study material in the car too and make the trips productive. Would I be able to commute an hour each way now? Most floor rotation months, I'd be going crazy from the waste of time and probably falling asleep in the car. Our outpatient or elective weeks, sure but you have to realize that intern year is going to be inpatient heavy most places you go, with maybe a 2-3 months out of the year on outpatient/elective/vacation.

Understanding that the other person is simply going to be working harder than you are and respecting that doesn't mean your job is less important. It just means you respect that it will probably be way worse for him to waste 2 hours every day on months where he'll work averages of 60+ hours a week. Add 2 hours a day driving to your 6 day week and now you've cut another 12 hours a week out of your life. Nobody's saying that her master's program isn't important when we say it isn't a real job. It's like saying medical school isn't a real job...which it isn't.

And as for the first post, they're trying to decide WHERE TO LIVE. They can't just change houses when he's on easier rotations so he can "pick up more of the slack". So yes, I stand by my point that he should live closer to the hospital if there's no other way around it since, on average, he'll be the busier one. If they can afford two places, then sure live apart for a while but I have the feeling it's gonna be hard to afford two pads on one income.

 

[Raryn]

Live apart for 12 months, have her come down on the weekends. Or you go up if you have a weekend off.

It's only a year. I wouldn't wish 2 (much less 4) hours of a driving a day on my worst enemy. Especially not as an intern, no matter how "easy" the field is.

 

[j4pac]

Yeah I know you're responding to those of us who did call it "not a real job" and I stand by that. Those of us in residency have also "been in residency and grad school"...so not sure what's so different about your experience. There's also a significant portion of us who have gotten master's degrees in various subjects along the way as well, so I doubt you're speaking from some level everyone else doesn't get.

On average, residency will be more difficult than a master's program. It's just a fact. It's not that it's more important...he'll just work longer hours. Could I have commuted 3 hours every day for med school or other classes? Uh yeah, it would have sucked but it can be done. Pop in some study material in the car too and make the trips productive. Would I be able to commute an hour each way now? Most floor rotation months, I'd be going crazy from the waste of time and probably falling asleep in the car. Our outpatient or elective weeks, sure but you have to realize that intern year is going to be inpatient heavy most places you go, with maybe a 2-3 months out of the year on outpatient/elective/vacation.

Understanding that the other person is simply going to be working harder than you are and respecting that doesn't mean your job is less important. It just means you respect that it will probably be way worse for him to waste 2 hours every day on months where he'll work averages of 60+ hours a week. Hey, maybe it won't be that bad for him and he likes driving so who knowAdd 2 hours a day driving to your 6 day week and now you've cut another 12 hours a week out of your life. Nobody's saying that her master's program isn't important when we say it isn't a real job. It's like saying medical school isn't a real job...which it isn't.

And as for the first post, they're trying to decide WHERE TO LIVE. They can't just change houses when he's on easier rotations so he can "pick up more of the slack". So yes, I stand by my point that he should live closer to the hospital if there's no other way around it since, on average, he'll be the busier one.

It's a job to her...so it would be an insensitive thing to say. Of course residency is more challenging, exhausting, and grueling than practically every other training pipeline. That's not the point. The OP has to have an effective strategy in communicating the situation with his wife.

People outside of medicine don't have the insight to appreciate the amount of work and stress that goes into what we do...so there is no point getting into the debate over who's job is harder.

The OP needs to explain how it will be a requirement of him to live within 30-min of his program. Whether his wife wants to make the 1.5hr commute or have her own place should be a decision made by the wife. If the OP pushes the issue to have his wife make the commute because his job is harder, and the wife does not believe that is a setup that will allow her to make it through her program...she will resent him for it.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It's a job to her...so it would be an insensitive thing to say. Of course residency is more challenging, exhausting, and grueling than practically every other training pipeline. That's not the point. The OP has to have an effective strategy in communicating the situation with his wife.

People outside of medicine don't have the insight to appreciate the amount of work and stress that goes into what we do...so there is no point getting into the debate over who's job is harder.

The OP needs to explain how it will be a requirement of him to live within 30-min of his program. Whether his wife wants to make the 1.5hr commute or have her own place should be a decision made by the wife. If the OP pushes the issue to have his wife make the commute because his job is harder, and the wife does not believe that is a setup that will allow her to make it through her program...she will resent him for it.

I don't think anybody suggested saying that to her face.

 

[j4pac]

I don't think anybody suggested saying that to her face.

I was being facetious with my previous post.

 

[QofQuimica]

Yeah I know you're responding to those of us who did call it "not a real job" and I stand by that. Those of us in residency have also "been in residency and grad school"...so not sure what's so different about your experience. There's also a significant portion of us who have gotten master's degrees in various subjects along the way as well, so I doubt you're speaking from some level everyone else doesn't get.

On average, residency will be more difficult than a master's program. It's just a fact. It's not that it's more important...he'll just work longer hours. Could I have commuted 3 hours every day for med school or other classes? Uh yeah, it would have sucked but it can be done. Pop in some study material in the car too and make the trips productive. Would I be able to commute an hour each way now? Most floor rotation months, I'd be going crazy from the waste of time and probably falling asleep in the car. Our outpatient or elective weeks, sure but you have to realize that intern year is going to be inpatient heavy most places you go, with maybe a 2-3 months out of the year on outpatient/elective/vacation.

Understanding that the other person is simply going to be working harder than you are and respecting that doesn't mean your job is less important. It just means you respect that it will probably be way worse for him to waste 2 hours every day on months where he'll work averages of 60+ hours a week. Add 2 hours a day driving to your 6 day week and now you've cut another 12 hours a week out of your life. Nobody's saying that her master's program isn't important when we say it isn't a real job. It's like saying medical school isn't a real job...which it isn't.

And as for the first post, they're trying to decide WHERE TO LIVE. They can't just change houses when he's on easier rotations so he can "pick up more of the slack". So yes, I stand by my point that he should live closer to the hospital if there's no other way around it since, on average, he'll be the busier one. If they can afford two places, then sure live apart for a while but I have the feeling it's gonna be hard to afford two pads on one income.

I have an MD, two MSes, and a PhD, so I think it's actually quite likely that I've had more "grad school experience" than most of you. That being said, I'm not looking to get into a pissing contest with anyone, especially regarding something as subjective as whether grad school is "hard" or a "real job." The points I'm making are these:

1) For the OP's wife, grad school *is* her job, and it *is* a real job in the sense that it requires her to be certain places at certain times doing certain things in order to progress through her program. It's obviously possible to flunk out of grad school just like it is possible to flunk out of med school or be fired from residency. Depending on what type of degree she is pursuing, her grad school may not be very much like the first two years of med school at all in terms of how it's set up. Unlike med students, as a grad student, OP's wife may also have other work responsibilities such as teaching UGs/TAing, which is a common way for grad students to earn their living expense stipends. If she's doing research, her PI may have expectations regarding when she must be physically present in the lab. And so on.

2) While her schedule is likely to be more flexible overall, there will be times when his is easier than it is at other times as well. It's simply not true that every rotation during residency is equally as hard and time-consuming as every other. Likewise for grad school. During the times when his schedule is easier, it's not unreasonable for him to make a bit more effort so that they can be together, especially if she's in the middle of say, preparing for her thesis defense. Obviously when he is on a tough PICU month or other time-intensive inpatient rotations, she will need to do more driving, or they will need to spend some time apart.

3) My advice was for them not to get a house at all, but rather two small apartments. He really just needs somewhere to crash close by the hospital for those times when he can't drive home. He doesn't need a "house" there. (I actually don't think residents should buy houses at all in most cases, but that's an argument for another time.)

 

[Psai]

Man lol there should be absolutely no question that the resident needs to live much closer than the master's student. Does the masters degree do anything for you that a bachelor's can't? It's not like it's a phd

 

[j4pac]

I have an MD, two MSes, and a PhD, so I think it's actually quite likely that I've had more "grad school experience" than most of you. That being said, I'm not looking to get into a pissing contest with anyone, especially regarding something as subjective as whether grad school is "hard" or a "real job." The points I'm making are these:

1) For the OP's wife, grad school *is* her job, and it *is* a real job in the sense that it requires her to be certain places at certain times doing certain things in order to progress through her program. It's obviously possible to flunk out of grad school just like it is possible to flunk out of med school or be fired from residency. Depending on what type of degree she is pursuing, her grad school may not be very much like the first two years of med school at all in terms of how it's set up. Unlike med students, as a grad student, OP's wife may also have other work responsibilities such as teaching UGs/TAing, which is a common way for grad students to earn their living expense stipends. If she's doing research, her PI may have expectations regarding when she must be physically present in the lab. And so on.

2) While her schedule is likely to be more flexible overall, there will be times when his is easier than it is at other times as well. It's simply not true that every rotation during residency is equally as hard and time-consuming as every other. Likewise for grad school. During the times when his schedule is easier, it's not unreasonable for him to make a bit more effort so that they can be together, especially if she's in the middle of say, preparing for her thesis defense. Obviously when he is on a tough PICU month or other time-intensive inpatient rotations, she will need to do more driving, or they will need to spend some time apart.

3) My advice was for them not to get a house at all, but rather two small apartments. He really just needs somewhere to crash close by the hospital for those times when he can't drive home. He doesn't need a "house" there. (I actually don't think residents should buy houses at all in most cases, but that's an argument for another time.)

I couldn't agree more about the house issue. That would be about the dumbest thing imaginable. Now's absolutely not the time to think about investments...flexibility is infinitely more important.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Man lol there should be absolutely no question that the resident needs to live much closer than the master's student. Does the masters degree do anything for you that a bachelor's can't? It's not like it's a phd

depends entirely on what the master's degree is in.