Comparisons Based on Most Recent Salary Survey

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Mad Jack

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As an attending, I know that one of the favorite hobbies of premeds is to imagine their future specialties. And what better way to imagine them by knowing how much cash you'll be rolling in at the end of the day? But one thing that often isn't factored in is how hard you're going to be working for that money, so I've put together a helpful chart to give you an idea of how much cash you're going to be pulling per hour of work once you cross the golden gates of admission. Data is taken from Medscape's salary survey (Medscape: Medscape Access) and recompiled for your comparing pleasure. Dollars per hour are assuming 52 weeks per year with vacation weeks providing paid compensation equivalent to regular compensation. Does this affect the way anyone is thinking about their future specialty choice? Do you think there's more to what you want in your future than piles of loot keeping you warm at night?
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This is great. I wish they had neurosurgery and vascular though.
 
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This is great. I wish they had neurosurgery and vascular though.
Same. They generally don't include very small specialties because the sample size is so small as to be almost personally identifiable, unfortunately. Some subspecialties like neuro spine, ortho spine, and interventional cardiology command far higher than the wages listed.
 
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Love this. I feel like I'm food stamps level - between inflation and no raise since 2018 I wish I had a Corolla

(I'm IM)
 
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Nice chart!

The only caveat I would have is that salary surveys catch the median but may not represent what income actually looks like a few years into practice, but it definitely captures the big picture. It's no surprise that the highest ranked fields here are the most highly desired by students!
 
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Love this. I feel like I'm food stamps level - between inflation and no raise since 2018 I wish I had a Corolla

(I'm IM)
I've got that used Corolla money in psych, with some time to drive it to a nice cabin in the woods if I'm lucky
 
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Neuro ain’t pulling only 280K even straight out of residency. I can tell you that at least.
 
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As an attending, I know that one of the favorite hobbies of premeds is to imagine their future specialties. And what better way to imagine them by knowing how much cash you'll be rolling in at the end of the day? But one thing that often isn't factored in is how hard you're going to be working for that money, so I've put together a helpful chart to give you an idea of how much cash you're going to be pulling per hour of work once you cross the golden gates of admission. Data is taken from Medscape's salary survey (Medscape: Medscape Access) and recompiled for your comparing pleasure. Dollars per hour are assuming 52 weeks per year with vacation weeks providing paid compensation equivalent to regular compensation. Does this affect the way anyone is thinking about their future specialty choice? Do you think there's more to what you want in your future than piles of loot keeping you warm at night?View attachment 370076
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Do you have any data ?
Check the MGMA for the median Neurology salary. We’ve known for a while that the medscape reported neurology salary isn’t accurate. My senior who is about to graduate in 2 months has had multiple job offers starting over 400K (they’re going to Indy starting at 420K), and as a PGY1 myself, I’ve already had multiple offers over 370K with monthly stipends while in residency and fellowship. There is such a very bad shortage in Neurology (especially general neurology) that no one is signing anything lower than 300-350K anymore even straight out of residency.
 
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Check the MGMA for the median Neurology salary. We’ve known for a while that the medscape reported neurology salary isn’t accurate. My senior who is about to graduate in 2 months has had multiple job offers starting over 400K (they’re going to Indy starting at 420K), and as a PGY1 myself, I’ve already had multiple offers over 370K with monthly stipends while in residency and fellowship. There is such a very bad shortage in Neurology (especially general neurology) that no one is signing anything lower than 300-350K anymore even straight out of residency.
MGMA tends to be around 5-10% higher per given specialty. I don't have the most recent MGMA data but in 2020 the 50th percentiles for neurology were 302k in the NE, 338k in the Midwest, 339k in the South, and 324k on the West Coast, and I doubt salaries have drastically increased since then. I think employed and academic physicians are overrepresented in the Medscape survey, while academic physicians are underrepresented in the MGMA data. Back when Medscape would report PP vs employed salary, PP salary tended to correlate closer to MGMA but they no longer do this
 
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Check the MGMA for the median Neurology salary. We’ve known for a while that the medscape reported neurology salary isn’t accurate. My senior who is about to graduate in 2 months has had multiple job offers starting over 400K (they’re going to Indy starting at 420K), and as a PGY1 myself, I’ve already had multiple offers over 370K with monthly stipends while in residency and fellowship. There is such a very bad shortage in Neurology (especially general neurology) that no one is signing anything lower than 300-350K anymore even straight out of residency.
Would you say this decreases with fellowship? ie would movement disorders and other outpatient fellowships generally decrease salary?
 
Would you say this decreases with fellowship? ie would movement disorders and other outpatient fellowships generally decrease salary?
If you do a fellowship, but you still practice general neurology, it shouldn’t decrease your salary. The only reason people’s salary decreases after fellowship is because they only focus on their subspecialty and thereby also decreasing their marketability. There’s been such a drive towards fellowship training in neurology, that general neurology is more in-demand nowadays than subspecialists.
 
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If you do a fellowship, but you still practice general neurology, it shouldn’t decrease your salary. The only reason people’s salary decreases after fellowship is because they only focus on their subspecialty and thereby also decreasing their marketability. There’s been such a drive towards fellowship training in neurology, that general neurology is more in-demand nowadays than subspecialists.
Seems like fellowship is primarily for specific interests then, which is understandable given the large variety in the field.
 
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As an attending, I know that one of the favorite hobbies of premeds is to imagine their future specialties. And what better way to imagine them by knowing how much cash you'll be rolling in at the end of the day? But one thing that often isn't factored in is how hard you're going to be working for that money, so I've put together a helpful chart to give you an idea of how much cash you're going to be pulling per hour of work once you cross the golden gates of admission. Data is taken from Medscape's salary survey (Medscape: Medscape Access) and recompiled for your comparing pleasure. Dollars per hour are assuming 52 weeks per year with vacation weeks providing paid compensation equivalent to regular compensation. Does this affect the way anyone is thinking about their future specialty choice? Do you think there's more to what you want in your future than piles of loot keeping you warm at night?View attachment 370076

I continue to find salary surveys suspicious because they don't accurately report my specialty (EM). Anyone taking $152/hr better either be putting in sweat equity for a great democratic group partner position or working so very rural that they could practically do the job from home.
 
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I continue to find salary surveys suspicious because they don't accurately report my specialty (EM). Anyone taking $152/hr better either be putting in sweat equity for a great democratic group partner position or working so very rural that they could practically do the job from home.
Keep in mind this survey includes often uncompensated working time- charting and admin- and that my method of calculation assumed 52 working weeks at the listed hours of compensation, with vacation paid similar to regular working hours. I don't know if the situation in EM is similar to hospitalist work, in which vacation is often uncompensated in 7 on/7 off arrangements, or if you manage to complete all tasks within scheduled working hours, but those would affect calculations in unpredictable ways, so this was just kind of a guide based on what is reported. Perhaps people self-report higher hours or higher charting times in EM then they're actually putting in, perhaps there's a heavy overrepresentation of academics, who knows.
 
This is super interesting, thanks for doing this. I would've expected GI to be in the top tier since 184 is much closer to 187 than it is to 178 lol. Also, I wanna be whatever specialty you are that afforded you the time to do this 🤣

It is really nice to see how much different specialties work per week. I'm surprised to not see a wider range in some of the hours worked. Nobody working more than 60 hours per week is both surprising and encouraging.
 
Keep in mind this survey includes often uncompensated working time- charting and admin- and that my method of calculation assumed 52 working weeks at the listed hours of compensation, with vacation paid similar to regular working hours. I don't know if the situation in EM is similar to hospitalist work, in which vacation is often uncompensated in 7 on/7 off arrangements, or if you manage to complete all tasks within scheduled working hours, but those would affect calculations in unpredictable ways, so this was just kind of a guide based on what is reported. Perhaps people self-report higher hours or higher charting times in EM then they're actually putting in, perhaps there's a heavy overrepresentation of academics, who knows.
The fact of the matter is most in medicine are printing $$$ these days. I don't know any of my graduating IM class who made < 300k last year.
 
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This is super interesting, thanks for doing this. I would've expected GI to be in the top tier since 184 is much closer to 187 than it is to 178 lol. Also, I wanna be whatever specialty you are that afforded you the time to do this 🤣

It is really nice to see how much different specialties work per week. I'm surprised to not see a wider range in some of the hours worked. Nobody working more than 60 hours per week is both surprising and encouraging.
i mean... these surveys are honestly truly meaningless/silly. GI is easily one of the top earners in medicine, but it's not due to hourly being 184 and people working 80 hours a week, but rather being able to buy into an ASC etc, which makes them able to work 7-4 and earn easily upto 750-1m. Anesthesia earning 169 an hour? Oncology that low? LOL.

The only thing these surveys are SOMEWHAT accurate, are specialties like FM/Peds where the ceiling isn't high at all. Specialties where you work before you buy in as a partner in a group for example, these hourlies are dumb.
 
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The fact of the matter is most in medicine are printing $$$ these days. I don't know any of my graduating IM class who made < 300k last year.
You would be shocked how many physicians work for less. Many attendings don't keep up with the market and their compensation slips further and further behind. At several places I've looked, this has resulted in new grads making more than experienced physicians. There's also the academic angle- academics can pay far less, and more docs than you would think practice in those settings or in low-paying areas, dragging down the average. This leads to many employers offering completely out of touch offers (such as one place offering me 230k in the sticks in PA and another in Indiana offering 190k) because that's what the current physicians have settled for.
 
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As an attending, I know that one of the favorite hobbies of premeds is to imagine their future specialties. And what better way to imagine them by knowing how much cash you'll be rolling in at the end of the day? But one thing that often isn't factored in is how hard you're going to be working for that money, so I've put together a helpful chart to give you an idea of how much cash you're going to be pulling per hour of work once you cross the golden gates of admission. Data is taken from Medscape's salary survey (Medscape: Medscape Access) and recompiled for your comparing pleasure. Dollars per hour are assuming 52 weeks per year with vacation weeks providing paid compensation equivalent to regular compensation. Does this affect the way anyone is thinking about their future specialty choice? Do you think there's more to what you want in your future than piles of loot keeping you warm at night?View attachment 370076
ID deserves like a quarter of my salary for the amount of info I steal from their notes.
 
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You would be shocked how many physicians work for less. Many attendings don't keep up with the market and their compensation slips further and further behind. At several places I've looked, this has resulted in new grads making more than experienced physicians. There's also the academic angle- academics can pay far less, and more docs than you would think practice in those settings or in low-paying areas, dragging down the average. This leads to many employers offering completely out of touch offers (such as one place offering me 230k in the sticks in PA and another in Indiana offering 190k) because that's what the current physicians have settled for.
Are these people serious? Offering a psychiatrist < 250k anywhere in the country is an insult.

That makes sense. I am seeing average hospital medicine salary in 280s in these surveys when everyone that I know makes 350-500k/yr by just being a little bit creative.
 
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Are these people serious? Offering a psychiatrist < 250k anywhere in the country is an insult.

That makes sense. I am seeing average hospital medicine salary in 280s in these surveys when everyone that I know makes 350-500k/yr by just being a little bit creative.
Yeah, I'll be pulling around $362k doing an inpatient job with every 4th weekend coverage, plus significant retirement incentives of $17k. If I pick up a 4 hour evening shift in the prison once a week for 46 weeks a year that bumps me to a total cash equivalent comp of $420k and pretax salary of $403k for an academic inpatient psych job. I'm also PSLF eligible, which will give me a pretax equivalent savings of $120k/year for the next 5 years once all is said and done. Now, I could just work a 8-4 with no weekends and no call for 265k, but I kind of want to build a wealth buffer first.

So, yes, to everyone in the room: the numbers are possibly accurate for employed, non-PP physicians with only one job doing the minimum, but it's easy to get into the top 10% by doing a bit more.
 
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Yeah, I'll be pulling around $362k doing an inpatient job with every 4th weekend coverage, plus significant retirement incentives of $17k. If I pick up a 4 hour evening shift in the prison once a week for 46 weeks a year that bumps me to a total cash equivalent comp of $420k and pretax salary of $403k for an academic inpatient psych job. I'm also PSLF eligible, which will give me a pretax equivalent savings of $120k/year for the next 5 years once all is said and done. Now, I could just work a 8-4 with no weekends and no call for 265k, but I kind of want to build a wealth buffer first.

So, yes, to everyone in the room: the numbers are possibly accurate for employed, non-PP physicians with only one job doing the minimum, but it's easy to get into the top 10% by doing a bit more.
I have been following you for a long time, going back when we both were studying for the MCAT. You were an RT (if my memory serves my well) and I was a RN..

Do you think going to medicine was a good move financially? I can say it is better financially than I expected
 
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Yeah, I'll be pulling around $362k doing an inpatient job with every 4th weekend coverage, plus significant retirement incentives of $17k. If I pick up a 4 hour evening shift in the prison once a week for 46 weeks a year that bumps me to a total cash equivalent comp of $420k and pretax salary of $403k for an academic inpatient psych job. I'm also PSLF eligible, which will give me a pretax equivalent savings of $120k/year for the next 5 years once all is said and done. Now, I could just work a 8-4 with no weekends and no call for 265k, but I kind of want to build a wealth buffer first.

So, yes, to everyone in the room: the numbers are possibly accurate for employed, non-PP physicians with only one job doing the minimum, but it's easy to get into the top 10% by doing a bit more.
Oh yeah definitely easy to exceed the survey numbers, but then since that seems to apply across the board it still serves as a nice comparison between fields.

We should also remember that for every doc crushing it above 90th percentile, there are the others phoning it in for much less. But the average is interesting for comparison sake.

I would also caution people about job offers with high starting salaries- remember that many of these may be in the form of loans against future earnings or contingent upon certain levels of productivity. I too get plenty of emails from recruiters claiming ENT starting salaries in the 500-800 range, but they never give the details. Basically no institution or practice is a charity, so if you’re making a lot you better be generating a lot or something is going to give. Sadly many places use seemingly high salary to recruit but then don’t adequately support them so they can’t meet the production levels needed to maintain it.
 
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Do you have any data ?
I can say that, based on jobs I was offered recently and based on talking to colleagues, a neurologist should expect to make between $350-400K at a reasonably-desirable new position, either doing 7 on/7 off or working a 4-day clinic. There's simply such an overwhelming shortage of neurologists, and it is a field relatively insulated from midlevel encroachment.

The salaries don't seem as far off as the average hours worked. Again, this is all anecdotal, but based on pay/hour, my academic neurology job puts me in the "printing money" category, not because of my salary but because of my hours (<30/week on average).

Would you say this decreases with fellowship? ie would movement disorders and other outpatient fellowships generally decrease salary?
The technical answer is "yes, probably" as, with a few exceptions, the best way to make money in outpatient neurology is high-volume general neurology, seeing headaches, simple neuropathies, and the litany of random referrals neurologists get. People do fellowships to limit the amount of general neurology they see, because it can be exhausting. If you subspecialize and then go into PP, you are still going to see a good volume of general neurology.
 
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Oh yeah definitely easy to exceed the survey numbers, but then since that seems to apply across the board it still serves as a nice comparison between fields.

We should also remember that for every doc crushing it above 90th percentile, there are the others phoning it in for much less. But the average is interesting for comparison sake.

I would also caution people about job offers with high starting salaries- remember that many of these may be in the form of loans against future earnings or contingent upon certain levels of productivity. I too get plenty of emails from recruiters claiming ENT starting salaries in the 500-800 range, but they never give the details. Basically no institution or practice is a charity, so if you’re making a lot you better be generating a lot or something is going to give. Sadly many places use seemingly high salary to recruit but then don’t adequately support them so they can’t meet the production levels needed to maintain it.
Yep. My hospital starts outpatient FPs at 240k/year. But I'd say out of a total group of about 40 at least 10 of us are breaking 400k/year. It would be more but a shocking number of the doctors don't pay any attention to quality metrics which is increasingly foolish.
 
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Oh yeah definitely easy to exceed the survey numbers, but then since that seems to apply across the board it still serves as a nice comparison between fields.

We should also remember that for every doc crushing it above 90th percentile, there are the others phoning it in for much less. But the average is interesting for comparison sake.

I would also caution people about job offers with high starting salaries- remember that many of these may be in the form of loans against future earnings or contingent upon certain levels of productivity. I too get plenty of emails from recruiters claiming ENT starting salaries in the 500-800 range, but they never give the details. Basically no institution or practice is a charity, so if you’re making a lot you better be generating a lot or something is going to give. Sadly many places use seemingly high salary to recruit but then don’t adequately support them so they can’t meet the production levels needed to maintain it.
Hmmm. What is the starting salary for ENT these days? I thought it was at least 450k/yr
 
I have been following you for a long time, going back when we both were studying for the MCAT. You were an RT (if my memory serves my well) and I was a RN..

Do you think going to medicine was a good move financially? I can say it is better financially than I expected
Oh it absolutely was. I figured it would be a bit of a wash but that has not been the case. With PSLF my break even point is literally 3-4 years versus when I was a RT, it's crazy. The real question is do you think it was worth it, given the stress and years involved? I certainly do.
 
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Oh it absolutely was. I figured it would be a bit of a wash but that has not been the case. With PSLF my break even point is literally 3-4 years versus when I was a RT, it's crazy. The real question is do you think it was worth it, given the stress and years involved? I certainly do.
Even for the stress and years involved, I would say it's worth it. I can freaking work 7.5 days/month (1 week on and 3 weeks off) and still make 150-175k/yr. I am looking forward to working that type of schedule in 8 yrs.
 
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Even for the stress and years involved, I would say it's worth it. I can freaking work 7.5 days/month (1 week on and 3 weeks off) and still make 150-175k/yr. I am looking forward to working that type of schedule in 8 yrs.
I feel that. I'm thinking I may do locums work down the line and do like, 6 months of work a year for 250-300k and spend the rest of the year off in the sunset. Not having kids means I need very little with regard to income, and geographically leaves me quite flexible for both work and play
 
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Oh yeah definitely easy to exceed the survey numbers, but then since that seems to apply across the board it still serves as a nice comparison between fields.

We should also remember that for every doc crushing it above 90th percentile, there are the others phoning it in for much less. But the average is interesting for comparison sake.

I would also caution people about job offers with high starting salaries- remember that many of these may be in the form of loans against future earnings or contingent upon certain levels of productivity. I too get plenty of emails from recruiters claiming ENT starting salaries in the 500-800 range, but they never give the details. Basically no institution or practice is a charity, so if you’re making a lot you better be generating a lot or something is going to give. Sadly many places use seemingly high salary to recruit but then don’t adequately support them so they can’t meet the production levels needed to maintain it.
Yeah, this happens in psych as well. Some jobs will give a salary that seems high, but they'll dock you come contract renewal if you aren't hitting productivity targets
 
Thanks for working on this. Great information. Another wrinkle would be length of training. Most on the higher end require 6-7 years of residency. A shorter residency provides a head start that is quite significant when crunching the numbers.
The value of 3 less years of residency only amounts to about 18k/year over a 30 year period, hardly compensates for the vast difference in specialty pay
 
I've got that used Corolla money in psych, with some time to drive it to a nice cabin in the woods if I'm lucky
Dammit I scrolled down to ask how your new "Corolla" is doing and you beat me to the punch already.
 
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Hmmm. What is the starting salary for ENT these days? I thought it was at least 450k/yr
Yeah thats around the average if you look at all the industry surveys. Usually the jobs that are not filling and turning to recruiters will offer more, so those are what end up in my inbasket. The popular jobs in a saturated area starting their ENT docs at $300k are not advertising in my email inbox. It's usually the "close proximity to a major metropolitan area" and "$700k starting with huge growth potential!" that I see.

These are mostly likely employed hospital positions at mid size community hospitals with no/minimal ENT coverage. Usually these either limit the 700k to 1-2 years, or often will consider it a loan against billings such that if you don't generate enough to cover your salary, then you're obligated to either pay back the difference or your salary gets readjusted -- just always have a lawyer review your contracts. You can often make this much as an employed ENT if you're busy and good, but the key will be how much that hospital wants to support you. If they don't give you adequate clinic space and staff and equipment, then you may not be able to generate that much revenue no matter how good you are. If something seems too good to be true, it usually is.

So all in 450 is probably a reasonable average nationwide, but with wild variation when you look at individual jobs.
 
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Even for the stress and years involved, I would say it's worth it. I can freaking work 7.5 days/month (1 week on and 3 weeks off) and still make 150-175k/yr. I am looking forward to working that type of schedule in 8 yrs.
I have a very similar timeline to achieve my financial target (which is probably considered a poverty line level by SDN and WCI standards). After that, I’ll switch to doing locum for 1 week out of 5. This should net me about 180k-ish if things market doesn’t change much and ChatGPT doesn’t render me obsolete.

Just to add a tiny data point, I am a neurohospitalist in a major metro. Work for a large hospital system. PSLF eligible. I do 7on 7off but I also get a couple paid two weeks off per year. I make mid 300s but the workload is phenomenal. Pay per worked our is roughly $300. That doesn’t include calls I field from the ED in the middle of the night, but they are manageable.

I could make nearly twice as much if I’m willing to take the job next door. But lifestyle would drastically plummet. Not worth it. I’ve seen enough patients younger than me coming in for life altering stroke/bleeds/neoplasm/demyelinating dz. Not worth it.

P.S. I drive a Sentra but can afford an Aston Martin. Will still drive my beater till it quits on me.
 
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The value of 3 less years of residency only amounts to about 18k/year over a 30 year period, hardly compensates for the vast difference in specialty pay

Could you speak more to how you got to that figure? In terms of what assumptions about the market and investment amount per year you were thinking? Thank you!
 
I have a very similar timeline to achieve my financial target (which is probably considered a poverty line level by SDN and WCI standards). After that, I’ll switch to doing locum for 1 week out of 5. This should net me about 180k-ish if things market doesn’t change much and ChatGPT doesn’t render me obsolete.

Just to add a tiny data point, I am a neurohospitalist in a major metro. Work for a large hospital system. PSLF eligible. I do 7on 7off but I also get a couple paid two weeks off per year. I make mid 300s but the workload is phenomenal. Pay per worked our is roughly $300. That doesn’t include calls I field from the ED in the middle of the night, but they are manageable.

I could make nearly twice as much if I’m willing to take the job next door. But lifestyle would drastically plummet. Not worth it. I’ve seen enough patients younger than me coming in for life altering stroke/bleeds/neoplasm/demyelinating dz. Not worth it.

P.S. I drive a Sentra but can afford an Aston Martin. Will still drive my beater till it quits on me.
It seems like a lot physicians are out touch. You soften see post on these websites saying 4 mil is not enough to retire.
 
Could you speak more to how you got to that figure? In terms of what assumptions about the market and investment amount per year you were thinking? Thank you!
It was napkin math. So you aren't, most likely, investing most of the money you make in differential between the two jobs. For most, investments in the first three years are only going to be a minority of your income, likely as little as 25%. If you want me to be super generous, I'll factor that in, but I'll also extend the working career to 35 years, which assumes starting attending life at 32 and retiring at 67. In fellowship, most of the time you're going to average around 70k, sans moonlighting, which most fellows do but I'll ignore (I was making around 120k in fellowship, for example, with light moonlighting). But let's subtract the 70k average from the 272k average in IM. That gives us 202k, and we'll invest 25% of that because we're assuming you're a super financially responsible early career physician. That gives you 454.5k in cash advantage and 151.5k in investments. We'll let those investments grow at 10%. At age 35, when most specialists are starting out, you'll have $175,817 in invested retirement funds, for a total advantage of $630,317. Divide that out by 35 years and you get a total of $18,009 advantage added on to your salary for the 3 years you save.

If you project things out further though, you have to account for an investment rate of 25% for both IM and our theoretical specialist, so ultimately it just kind of becomes pointless to have factored in investments to begin with, as our theoretical internist ends up with a retirement savings of $20,039,729 while our theoretical cardiologist that lost 3 years of compounding but saves far more annually at the same 25% rate ends up with a pot of $29,416,500 (and more if they were moonlighting or even just saving some of their base salary). Even if we subtract the advantage factor of cutting out that 70k to even things out a bit, the internist still ends up short at $21,515,547. This is in addition to the cardiologist earning a lifetime earnings of $16,224,000 while the internist had lifetime earnings of $9,520,000. This leads to a net lifetime gain of $14,604,953 for cardiology in a worst case scenario in which cards only earns 70k a year in fellowship while saving nothing those 3 years and IM saves and invests 25% of their full salary from the start. So yeah, I guess the question for anyone who thinks it is a financially wise decision to do IM vs a specialty is "are you willing to sacrifice $5,000,000 per year for those early years of attending life," because that's what it amounts to. That's an advantage of $465,405 per working year gained over 32 years through the power of increased wages and compounding.

The only case where the math gets a bit messier is if you're starting medical school far later than average and also plan to start saving far more than average, then there are some scenarios that are very unique in which it could pay off financially. Then there's the aspect of whether one wants to be a cardiologist, and, well, you couldn't pay me a million dollars a year to do it, personally.
 
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It was napkin math. So you aren't, most likely, investing most of the money you make in differential between the two jobs. For most, investments in the first three years are only going to be a minority of your income, likely as little as 25%. If you want me to be super generous, I'll factor that in, but I'll also extend the working career to 35 years, which assumes starting attending life at 32 and retiring at 67. In fellowship, most of the time you're going to average around 70k, sans moonlighting, which most fellows do but I'll ignore (I was making around 120k in fellowship, for example, with light moonlighting). But let's subtract the 70k average from the 272k average in IM. That gives us 202k, and we'll invest 25% of that because we're assuming you're a super financially responsible early career physician. That gives you 454.5k in cash advantage and 151.5k in investments. We'll let those investments grow at 10%. At age 35, when most specialists are starting out, you'll have $175,817 in invested retirement funds, for a total advantage of $630,317. Divide that out by 35 years and you get a total of $18,009 advantage added on to your salary for the 3 years you save.

If you project things out further though, you have to account for an investment rate of 25% for both IM and our theoretical specialist, so ultimately it just kind of becomes pointless to have factored in investments to begin with, as our theoretical internist ends up with a retirement savings of $20,039,729 while our theoretical cardiologist that lost 3 years of compounding but saves far more annually at the same 25% rate ends up with a pot of $29,416,500 (and more if they were moonlighting or even just saving some of their base salary). Even if we subtract the advantage factor of cutting out that 70k to even things out a bit, the internist still ends up short at $21,515,547. This is in addition to the cardiologist earning a lifetime earnings of $16,224,000 while the internist had lifetime earnings of $9,520,000. This leads to a net lifetime gain of $14,604,953 for cardiology in a worst case scenario in which cards only earns 70k a year in fellowship while saving nothing those 3 years and IM saves and invests 25% of their full salary from the start. So yeah, I guess the question for anyone who thinks it is a financially wise decision to do IM vs a specialty is "are you willing to sacrifice $5,000,000 per year for those early years of attending life," because that's what it amounts to. That's an advantage of $465,405 per working year gained over 32 years through the power of increased wages and compounding.

The only case where the math gets a bit messier is if you're starting medical school far later than average and also plan to start saving far more than average, then there are some scenarios that are very unique in which it could pay off financially. Then there's the aspect of whether one wants to be a cardiologist, and, well, you couldn't pay me a million dollars a year to do it, personally.
Thank you so much for the detailed reply I really appreciate it :)
 
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It seems like a lot physicians are out touch. You soften see post on these websites saying 4 mil is not enough to retire.
Look man, I am a simple guy. A garlicky chicken shawarma wrap or watching a silly 80s horror movie raises my happiness scale to 10.

I can tell you with confidence that my happiness now as an attending is the same it was before I decided to pursue medicine, back when I was a lab tech making $17 an hour.

Everyone is different, but at least for me, more money doesn’t equate to more happiness beyond a certain (low) threshold. In fact, more money would decrease my happiness if it meant I’m working even a little more than I do now.
 
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Look man, I am a simple guy. A garlicky chicken shawarma wrap or watching a silly 80s horror movie raises my happiness scale to 10.

I can tell you with confidence that my happiness now as an attending is the same it was before I decided to pursue medicine, back when I was a lab tech making $17 an hour.

Everyone is different, but at least for me, more money doesn’t equate to more happiness beyond a certain (low) threshold. In fact, more money would decrease my happiness if it meant I’m working even a little more than I do now.

Remember folks, love him or hate him, Kanye west has a banger of a lyric/quote: Money isn't everything, but not having it is.

Obviously, implying that if you don't have money, your whole life is focused on money to pay bills, shelter, food, provide for people etc. BUT, once you have that money, then your relationships with friends family, SO, your hobbies, free time etc. matter much more. For some I guess a lot of money provides happiness in a ferrari etc. which is itself, fine.
 
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Look man, I am a simple guy. A garlicky chicken shawarma wrap or watching a silly 80s horror movie raises my happiness scale to 10.

I can tell you with confidence that my happiness now as an attending is the same it was before I decided to pursue medicine, back when I was a lab tech making $17 an hour.

Everyone is different, but at least for me, more money doesn’t equate to more happiness beyond a certain (low) threshold. In fact, more money would decrease my happiness if it meant I’m working even a little more than I do now.
I like my job but I like my time even more...

Once I have ~2 mil and my house is paid off, I will be out of the rat race (though I will work part time).
 
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It seems like a lot physicians are out touch. You soften see post on these websites saying 4 mil is not enough to retire.
I would say that posters, and members, of this website are disproportionally fiscally conservative. I know plenty of people in their 30s with six-figure jobs who have zero retirement savings. The physician equivalents look for huge paychecks, simply because they can't imagine living on a $150,000 salary in the future.

That being said, I agree with many of the posters that salary only matters if you have time to spend it. All physicians make a lot, relatively speaking, and you may end up making choices in the future that put your time, family, etc, ahead of a huge paycheck. My neurohospitalist job is 7 on/7 off, but the shifts are 8 hours (not 12) and I take home call about 50 times/year. The difference in pay between that kind of position, and a position where shifts are 12 hours and there is much more frequent call, is a six-figure difference. But at a certain point, and a certain salary, there are diminishing returns on income, and you only have so much time when you are young.
 
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I would say that posters, and members, of this website are disproportionally fiscally conservative. I know plenty of people in their 30s with six-figure jobs who have zero retirement savings. The physician equivalents look for huge paychecks, simply because they can't imagine living on a $150,000 salary in the future.

That being said, I agree with many of the posters that salary only matters if you have time to spend it. All physicians make a lot, relatively speaking, and you may end up making choices in the future that put your time, family, etc, ahead of a huge paycheck. My neurohospitalist job is 7 on/7 off, but the shifts are 8 hours (not 12) and I take home call about 50 times/year. The difference in pay between that kind of position, and a position where shifts are 12 hours and there is much more frequent call, is a six-figure difference. But at a certain point, and a certain salary, there are diminishing returns on income, and you only have so much time when you are young.
Very true. Retirement planning is very tricky. I don’t have a set number in mind yet but it’s definitely changing as I get more accustomed to my current income. I’m also in a very high COL area now so where $150k may have been enough retirement income where I grew up, I would have to make serious cuts in lifestyle to make that work now.

Time is definitely key. I’m on a salary/rvu bonus model easily blew past the threshold my first year out, so all I have to do to make more money is work more. I could open a Saturday clinic and it would be packed solid within 4 weeks and add a ton of money, but just not worth the time. Instead I’ve cut most days to just long mornings so now I’m able to walk out with notes done around 3-4 each day when I’m not on call.

I really love what I do though so I’m not really in the FIRE mindset. Even if I got handed a $10m check today, I would probably keep doing exactly what I do now. If I didn’t like my work, I could definitely see myself opening that Saturday clinic and filling my days so I could get out faster.
 
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