Competitive Specialties as a Class of 2024 D.O.

[Ho0v-man]

Y’all are seriously overestimating our impact on top MD schools. At best, osteopathic medicine produces a handful of applicants every year that displace a top MD student. The step change has just affected our ability to keep up with mid and low tier MD students.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted898021]

Probably because Utah is a freaking state, not a city.

Fine it’s not exactly an elite “state” either exactly so my point still stands. More specifically Salt Lake City isn’t an elite “costal” city and Utah isn’t exactly an Ivy League ivory tower school....

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Y’all are seriously overestimating our impact on top MD schools. At best, osteopathic medicine produces a handful of applicants every year that displace a top MD student. The step change has just affected our ability to keep up with mid and low tier MD students.

I guess I for one am not worried about our impact on top MD schools, or the "top of the ivory tower" for that matter. If PDs shift focus to Step 2 scores, I'm going to hustle and bust my ass to nail Step 2 when it comes time for me to apply. I may not be applying for ortho at MGH (nor ever intended to), but hypothetically if I wanted to be one of the 65% of DOs that match ortho, I'm not exactly stressing about other applicants that have no Step 2 score if I have a great Step 2 score and otherwise stellar application to other ortho programs.

And isn't this the same mindest (or in parallel) to the doomsayers saying that DO applicants would no longer have safe harbor in a post-merger world and their match would suffer? That got debunked by DO seniors matching arguably the best ever post-merger, right?

Again, I get that the change in the game favors students at top schools, but the game changes, and programs and students will adapt accordingly. This isn't the end of the world.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You are underestimating the prestige whoring. They could leave Step 1/2 scored for everyone and have P/F scores for students at the top 20 med schools and their match lists wouldn't change at all.

Yes, pedigree bigotry is definitely a thing.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I guess I for one am not worried about our impact on top MD schools, or the "top of the ivory tower" for that matter. If PDs shift focus to Step 2 scores, I'm going to hustle and bust my ass to nail Step 2 when it comes time for me to apply. I may not be applying for ortho at MGH (nor ever intended to), but hypothetically if I wanted to be one of the 65% of DOs that match ortho, I'm not exactly stressing about other applicants that have no Step 2 score if I have a great Step 2 score and otherwise stellar application to other ortho programs.

And isn't this the same mindest (or in parallel) to the doomsayers saying that DO applicants would no longer have safe harbor in a post-merger world and their match would suffer? That got debunked by DO seniors matching arguably the best ever post-merger, right?

Again, I get that the change in the game favors students at top schools, but the game changes, and programs and students will adapt accordingly. This isn't the end of the world.

Sorry I must’ve missed something. Everyone will have a step 2.

 

[Kardio]

Not that it matters, but what's the reason behind this? Why would they choose a mediocre student from an Ivy over an elite one from a lower tier MD school?

Do they believe ivory tower schools have better education? Or is it just bragging rights to say "our students come from so and so"?

There are so many reasons for this.

What immediately comes to mind is that people judge programs, in part, by the school names that makeup their roster.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not that it matters, but what's the reason behind this? Why would they choose a mediocre student from an Ivy over an elite one from a lower tier MD school?

Do they believe ivory tower schools have better education? Or is it just bragging rights to say "our students come from so and so"?

Wanting that shiny HMS name on their resident roster is definitely part of it, but I suspect it mainly has to come from this inherent notion that people who made it to elite medical schools have already proven themselves somewhat. Also remember a lot of the people who get into the elite schools tend to work in academia, and so it's this self perpetuating cycle with them writing letters for their own students, who then apply to residencies their old students and co-residents are now faculty at, etc.

 

[slowthai]

Not that it matters, but what's the reason behind this? Why would they choose a mediocre student from an Ivy over an elite one from a lower tier MD school?

Do they believe ivory tower schools have better education? Or is it just bragging rights to say "our students come from so and so"?

All of the above. It's the halo effect. People give the Harvard kids the benefit of the doubt. They're typically the "safest" pick. A history of excellence = a future of excellence. This is how they approach it, I reckon.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I understand. But shouldn't boards and research production be standardizing factors?

When you go one level down (going from undergrad to med school) why is this phenomenon less apparent? Isn't the convention wisdom that undergrad prestige matters very little compared to the MCAT?

Boards and research SHOULD be standardizing factors, but they arent. Thats why our local university IM program has never taken a DO and probably wont in my lifetime for all of the reasons ststed above.

 

[Kardio]

I understand. But shouldn't boards and research production be standardizing factors?

I don’t know what it ought to be, but I can see what it is.

When you go one level down (going from undergrad to med school) why is this phenomenon less apparent? Isn't the convention wisdom that undergrad prestige matters very little compared to the MCAT?

Even if we say it’s not a factor in medical school admissions, it is in nearly all others walks of life.

 

[slowthai]

I understand. But shouldn't boards and research production be standardizing factors?

When you go one level down (going from undergrad to med school) why is this phenomenon less apparent? Isn't the convention wisdom that undergrad prestige matters very little compared to the MCAT?

As a rule, I don't discuss premed stuff. I'll defer to my colleagues on this one. Jk, I seriously am less informed on that part of the process. The applying to med school thing often felt like chasing the wind.

As far as boards and research goes, if only that were the case, but the gatekeepers are human, and humans tend to cling to their biases, even if you jump through whatever flaming hoops they've thrown at you.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I understand. But shouldn't boards and research production be standardizing factors?

Yes and no. That's assuming this is a meritocracy, and it isn't. They should be completely standardizing, but aren't. Academia literally loves prestige. They love it more than anything.

You can still elevate yourself to new levels with boards and research to many extents, even more so if you are a US MD. A lot of DO's can still do it on a smaller scale. However this is why so many people were up in arms about Step 1 going P/F. It is a significant blow to a student's ability to punch up. While Step 2 is still scored I suspect it won't be too big of a hit, but if Step 2 goes P/F then DO's with high goals should get very, very nervous.

When you go one level down (going from undergrad to med school) why is this phenomenon less apparent? Isn't the convention wisdom that undergrad prestige matters very little compared to the MCAT?

It matters quite a bit actually, just probably not quite as much as at the residency level because the number of spots is so much greater.

Prestige will always matter at the top, and even to a lot of people not at the top but still in academia.

 

[Kardio]

@The_RZ_Method

Just to add - hope isn’t lost if you’re looking for a parking spot at the base of the ivory tower.

Here’s the big picture. You can’t jump from, what academia considers, a -1 prestige school to a +10 prestige residency. The odds are just too stacked against you.

But if you really want to chase it, you can make gradual advancements over the course of your career. DO faculty at elite institutions aren’t too common, but they’re there.

 

[slowthai]

Yes and no. That's assuming this is a meritocracy, and it isn't. They should be completely standardizing, but aren't. Academia literally loves prestige. They love it more than anything.

Loool they loveee it. It covers a multitude of sins. If I could go back in time, man...

I agree about step 2 still keeping doors open. If/when it goes p/f, all bets are off.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I understand. But shouldn't boards and research production be standardizing factors?

When you go one level down (going from undergrad to med school) why is this phenomenon less apparent? Isn't the convention wisdom that undergrad prestige matters very little compared to the MCAT?

We use the step exams for stratifying applicants. But it’s eternally debated as to whether or not we should. Not sure what standardizes us about research. Top MD students can fall backwards into publications. And I’m pretty sure being able to publish 20 things proves that I’m good at publishing things. It doesn’t really say anything about my ability to be a doctor.

The mcat is more important in med school admissions because in med school you have to take bunch of really freaking hard tests. So it’s nice to know you can take tests. But in residency you have to take care of patients in addition to take tests. The prestige of your school loosely translates to the amount of clinical responsibility/exposure you took on during third year.

We all like to complain that these students get special treatment in the match process (and they do), but their clinical Ed compared to a low tier MD and especially a DO school is pretty much night and day. On average, these students are held to a standard way above ours. Don’t get me wrong, there is a degree of prestige whoring to make residency programs look shiny. And you are going to find those dud students from top schools that just hid through all of their rotations and found the person who gives honors. But overall these students have the best training in the part of med school that matters the most.

 

[deleted898021]

Who really cares about prestige? Just as an example, what’s the real difference between matching IM at UIC-Chicago, UIC advocate Christ, Rush University, Loyola, UC-northshore(all of which that take many DO’s) vs UC or Northwestern’s main IM program that won’t touch DO’s, I see pretty good sub specialty matches from all those programs. Like I honestly wouldn’t care if I wanted to do IM in Chicago for example as long as the program let me sub-specialize and wasn’t malignant. It would honestly make no real difference in your career. Even if you did want to become IM faculty at an MD institution you could prbly still do academic medicine from those programs that take DO’s. It honestly makes no real difference.

 

[slowthai]

I couldn't care less about prestige actually, and I only see research as a means to an end to match into the residency I want.

I just want to be as good of a clinician as I can be, and I guess I associate the top tier schools with higher quality training, mentors, intangibles and better job opportunities post-residency.

Especially as I'm interested in psych and I've heard there's a great range in the quality of psychiatrists (and programs).

What's great is that a lot of how good of a physician you are is based on you and the effort you put in during your training. I don't know enough about psych, so I won't comment much on it, but I believe that because psych is inherently the most flexible (as far as practice setups go) and one of the most in demand specialties, job opportunities abound, and you can maybe even create your dream job, depending. Where you did your residency won't be the limiting factor.

 

[calivianya]

Everyone else has said it, but I’ll reiterate - if I had any remote idea that I was going to have a pass/fail step, I would improve my app and reapply MD. I was banking on having step scores when I decided to apply both MD and DO my first cycle.

I don’t think any specialties in desirable areas are safe for DOs, tbh. One of my skills class professors is the PD for a formerly AOA family med program near my school. He stated he usually got 400-500 DO applicants per year before the merger, and now he gets ~1400-1500 apps per year. He also said only about ~600+ of those are IMGs, so there’s at least ~300+ AMG MDs applying to this formerly AOA family med program... he also told us he can’t justify taking only DOs because some of the MD candidates are so strong, and we are talking *family med* here.

I see no evidence that AMG MDs won’t very happily take former AOA spots if the area is nice, even in family med, since I have it out of a PD’s mouth that that’s already happening. If you have not only a specialty preference, but a geographical one that is popular, I would reapply MD.

 

[bigindian4891]

Who really cares about prestige? Just as an example, what’s the real difference between matching IM at UIC-Chicago, UIC advocate Christ, Rush University, Loyola, UC-northshore(all of which that take many DO’s) vs UC or Northwestern’s main IM program that won’t touch DO’s, I see pretty good sub specialty matches from all those programs. Like I honestly wouldn’t care if I wanted to do IM in Chicago for example as long as the program let me sub-specialize and wasn’t malignant. It would honestly make no real difference in your career. Even if you did want to become IM faculty at an MD institution you could prbly still do academic medicine from those programs that take DO’s. It honestly makes no real difference.

You dont care about prestige. I dont care about prestige. But some people want to be at the most prestigious place and have the most prestigious career with a prestigious house on the most prestigious road. Thats what drives them. They could see your post and wonder "Why wouldnt you try to get into a world class institution?"

This doesnt necessarily make them bad doctors. Just different motivations and paths.

 

[deleted898021]

You dont care about prestige. I dont care about prestige. But some people want to be at the most prestigious place and have the most prestigious career with a prestigious house on the most prestigious road. Thats what drives them. They could see your post and wonder "Why wouldnt you try to get into a world class institution?"

This doesnt necessarily make them bad doctors. Just different motivations and paths.

I get it, but I am specifically talking about DO students, if they wanted MGH IM , should have gone to a USMD, as a DO in IM you will cap off at upper mid tier IM even with a great app, and imho there’s nothing wrong with that as those programs will still give you great training.

 

[bigindian4891]

I get it, but I am specifically talking about DO students, if they wanted MGH IM , should have gone to a USMD, as a DO in IM you will cap off at upper mid tier IM even with a great app, and imho there’s nothing wrong with that as those programs will still give you great training.

Oh got it, totally misunderstood. Yeah I agree, a person who cares about prestige shouldve gone to an MD school.

 

[slowthai]

You dont care about prestige. I dont care about prestige. But some people want to be at the most prestigious place and have the most prestigious career with a prestigious house on the most prestigious road. Thats what drives them. They could see your post and wonder "Why wouldnt you try to get into a world class institution?"

This doesnt necessarily make them bad doctors. Just different motivations and paths.

I don't think anyone said or thinks it makes them a bad doctor. The prestige you want may never be enough, and it even may be impossible to attain, no matter what you do. Your satisfaction in life/career being based on the approval/respect of others is a recipe for dissatisfaction imo. These things are flighty and change with the times. The respect people have for physicians has been steadily eroding. If you went into medicine for the prestige, sorry, lol. Look at what the midlevels, chiropractors, and naturopaths are doing: claiming equivalency and receiving it. Congratulations, your prestige just went down some more.

Of course, wanting prestige for the advantages it gives you (as we've discussed already) is cool. Gives you a lot of opportunity and leeway.

 

[Kardio]

some people want to be at the most prestigious place and have the most prestigious career with a prestigious house on the most prestigious road. Thats what drives them.

I don’t know how you forgot about a prestigious spouse.

 

[djiboutiman]

At what point should someone just accept the DO route though? It’s easy to say just reapply to MD schools, but MD admissions seems to be a tougher nut to crack every year. My first cycle I applied with borderline stats to only MD schools with a 3.6/512, for the second cycle I boosted the MCAT to 519 and still ended up with 0 MD As. Luckily I got a DO acceptance. As a slightly older applicant I didn’t want to keep chasing after the MD. Even family medicine seems like a better gig then a 9-5 office job.

 

[Chibucks15]

At what point should someone just accept the DO route though? It’s easy to say just reapply to MD schools, but MD admissions seems to be a tougher nut to crack every year. My first cycle I applied with borderline stats to only MD schools with a 3.6/512, for the second cycle I boosted the MCAT to 519 and still ended up with 0 MD As. Luckily I got a DO acceptance. As a slightly older applicant I didn’t want to keep chasing after the MD. Even family medicine seems like a better gig then a 9-5 office job.

I mean it goes without saying to be reasonable...at a certain point you have to realize what your standing is and accept it. You see it all the time on here where people don't really realize how hard and selective this whole career path is. Basically you have to decide early if prestige is something you value highly but every situation is different

 

[Kardio]

At what point should someone just accept the DO route though? It’s easy to say just reapply to MD schools, but MD admissions seems to be a tougher nut to crack every year. My first cycle I applied with borderline stats to only MD schools with a 3.6/512, for the second cycle I boosted the MCAT to 519 and still ended up with 0 MD As. Luckily I got a DO acceptance. As a slightly older applicant I didn’t want to keep chasing after the MD. Even family medicine seems like a better gig then a 9-5 office job.

Was fine with it since the day I learned I could do exactly what I wanted from a DO school. I’m also the type of person who is perpetually surprised that there are far more rejected USMD applicants every year than total DO applicants. I could not justify that opportunity cost for a second (or third or fourth) roll of the dice.

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Was fine with it since the day I learned I could do exactly what I wanted from a DO school. I’m also the type of person who is perpetually surprised that there are far more rejected USMD applicants every year than total DO applicants. I could not justify that opportunity cost for a second (or third or fourth) roll of the dice.

Until the sky actually falls for DOs (I.e: completely shut out of any speciality in the match, which won’t happen), this is the right mindset to have about it.

 

[SurgeDO]

Just want to bring up a point to you young whipper snappers from the perspective of an old fart (me).

As I continue to age through my career and life, the whole “prestige” and “ivory tower” chasing phenomena becomes less and less important. All of you will soon be in residency and up to your ears in stress. When you’re managing a 70 patient list, trying your best not to kill anyone while making 15+ phone calls to the OR to reserve that precious 7:30 start time so your attending can make his 1 pm tee time and fielding non-stop pages from the ER, the majority of you will stop giving a **** about how “prestigious” you look. You’ll start caring more about getting home in time to eat dinner with your loved ones and raising your kids. Spending time with friends. Pursuing hobbies.

There are people who care a ton about prestige. There’s nothing wrong with that. I just think once residency starts and the **** starts hitting the fan, the majority of people stop giving a **** about how prestigious they are. I think the majority of you will, too, and many of you (like me) will reflect on how silly it was to put so much anxiety into worrying about how prestigious your residency program is.

Hope my perspective contributes to something or at least eases some of your nerves.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

At what point should someone just accept the DO route though? It’s easy to say just reapply to MD schools, but MD admissions seems to be a tougher nut to crack every year. My first cycle I applied with borderline stats to only MD schools with a 3.6/512, for the second cycle I boosted the MCAT to 519 and still ended up with 0 MD As. Luckily I got a DO acceptance. As a slightly older applicant I didn’t want to keep chasing after the MD. Even family medicine seems like a better gig then a 9-5 office job.

If one is a reasonable MD candidate like yourself I think it is worth it to do a broad, MD only application cycle on your first try. If you don't get in then it is reasonable to apply to DO schools the second time around.

OP states they were an above average MD applicant who never applied MD.

 

[Kardio]

Most competitive fields require fellowships. Unfortunately, most DO students don't get enough research opportunities or other professional development opportunities to compete for competitive fellowships.

What fellowships are you referring to? Research years?

Most MD schools publish their match-list. You can compare that with a DO match list (most DO schools do not declare a match-list

Politely noting that the bolded is incorrect. There’s a 10+ page thread here talking about match lists every year.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Most competitive fields require fellowships.

I'm assuming you mean IM fellowships in particular. While the trend is for fields like ortho to do a fellowship, getting a high quality fellowship out of a DO ortho program isn't a issue at all.

The other option is for you to go for DO specific specialty boards in the future. They are less competitive than major MD-related specialty boards (e.g. AOCD vs ABD).

This is incorrect. With the merger every DO resident in any program is now eligible for the MD specialty board exams.

 

[deleted898021]

Everyone else has said it, but I’ll reiterate - if I had any remote idea that I was going to have a pass/fail step, I would improve my app and reapply MD. I was banking on having step scores when I decided to apply both MD and DO my first cycle.

I don’t think any specialties in desirable areas are safe for DOs, tbh. One of my skills class professors is the PD for a formerly AOA family med program near my school. He stated he usually got 400-500 DO applicants per year before the merger, and now he gets ~1400-1500 apps per year. He also said only about ~600+ of those are IMGs, so there’s at least ~300+ AMG MDs applying to this formerly AOA family med program... he also told us he can’t justify taking only DOs because some of the MD candidates are so strong, and we are talking *family med* here.

I see no evidence that AMG MDs won’t very happily take former AOA spots if the area is nice, even in family med, since I have it out of a PD’s mouth that that’s already happening. If you have not only a specialty preference, but a geographical one that is popular, I would reapply MD.

But tbh yes t

If you want to be in a competitive specialty with good training, the best option is to go to an MD school (if your are sill a pre-MD/DO). I have worked in both MD and DO schools as a faculty member for years. Sometimes, the numbers given by the admissions departments are misleading. Most competitive fields require fellowships. Unfortunately, most DO students don't get enough research opportunities or other professional development opportunities to compete for competitive fellowships. Most of the matches are to community medical centers than big academic medical centers. This puts you at a considerable disadvantage. Most MD schools publish their match-list. You can compare that with a DO match list (most DO schools do not declare a match-list, but you can look at their commencement documents to figure it out). The other option is for you to go for DO specific specialty boards in the future. They are less competitive than major MD-related specialty boards (e.g. AOCD vs ABD).

lol I have never heard of DO’s having issues in matching into fellowships after residency. It’s usually matching into a prestigious residency that’s the issue for DO’s...

 

[AKNP]

View attachment 315250

Where's shrimp neuro? 😳

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

lol I have never heard of DO’s having issues in matching into fellowships after residency.

It depends on the fellowship tbh. Some are wholly uncompetitive, but in fields like Cards, GI, Pulm, the DO match rates are still significantly lower than their MD counterparts. Some DO programs struggle placing people in any surgical fellowship that is moderately competitive. OB fellowships are pretty competitive as a whole. For fields like ortho and ENT getting the residency spot is typically the rate limiting step.

 

[deleted898021]

It depends on the fellowship tbh. Some are wholly uncompetitive, but in fields like Cards, GI, Pulm, the DO match rates are still significantly lower than their MD counterparts. Some DO programs struggle placing people in any surgical fellowship that is moderately competitive. OB fellowships are pretty competitive as a whole. For fields like ortho and ENT getting the residency spot is typically the rate limiting step.

I get what you mean for IM fellowships coming from a community prorgam or former AOA but what about DO’s in mid and low tier university and comuniversity programs? Is that difference between MD and DO that stark?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Anyone finishing a training program in X specialty can take the MD X specialty board exam. Full stop.

Again, it depends entirely on what fellowship you are talking about. You are going to have to be specific.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I get what you mean for IM fellowships coming from a community prorgam or former AOA but what about DO’s in mid and low tier university and comuniversity programs? Is that difference between MD and DO that stark?

Probably gets a little fuzzy. I never cared enough about IM to ever look at that granular of a level.

 

[Dwan]

I get what you mean for IM fellowships coming from a community prorgam or former AOA but what about DO’s in mid and low tier university and comuniversity programs? Is that difference between MD and DO that stark?

There is still a bias but not as stark. The last institution typically gets the most weight, and research becomes a much bigger factor. At my med school's IM program (lowish tier uni), the Carribs were still at a significant disadvantage for competitive fellowships vs US MD, in terms of # of interviews and match-rate. DOs had it harder than USMD but not as bad as Carribs. If an elite DO makes it into a strong IM program, they shouldn't have any issues. Interestingly, last year there were several DOs and Carribs who made it into Penn IM through Drexel's disbanding, but their match wasn't "Penn caliber". That may have been moreso because they were at Drexel for most of their training, as the typical Penn resident who does 1 poster will still get tons of top interviews.

Re: prestige, it definitely isn't everything, but it's more about opening options at every level, including mid-tiers/location. No one has go to MGH IM, but when it's more likely for a US-MD to get top 20 IM with a 230s than a DO with 250+ to get into a good mid-tier willing to take DOs like UCSD IM (1 DO from a CA program got into here last year, none this year), that is a major discrepancy. And many times we're referencing the superstar DOs who manage to get stellar scores/research when talking about options, but there are plenty who are avg/below avg - USMDs still get a ton of great options at this level.

 

[deleted898021]

There is still a bias but not as stark. The last institution typically gets the most weight, and research becomes a much bigger factor. At my med school's IM program (lowish tier uni), the Carribs were still at a significant disadvantage for competitive fellowships vs US MD, in terms of # of interviews and match-rate. DOs had it harder than USMD but not as bad as Carribs. If an elite DO makes it into a strong IM program, they shouldn't have any issues. Interestingly, last year there were several DOs and Carribs who made it into Penn IM through Drexel's disbanding, but their match wasn't "Penn caliber". That may have been moreso because they were at Drexel for most of their training, as the typical Penn resident who does 1 poster will still get tons of top interviews.

Re: prestige, it definitely isn't everything, but it's more about opening options at every level, including mid-tiers/location. No one has go to MGH IM, but when it's more likely for a US-MD to get top 20 IM with a 230s than a DO with 250+ to get into a good mid-tier willing to take DOs like UCSD IM (1 DO from a CA program got into here last year, none this year), that is a major discrepancy. And many times we're referencing the superstar DOs who manage to get stellar scores/research when talking about options, but there are plenty who are avg/below avg - USMDs still get a ton of great options at this level.

I get “options” but in essence it’s just prestige as there are other programs close enough to UCSD like UC Irvine, UC Riverside, scrips and others that do take DO’s more frequently then UCSD and looking at their fellowship match list it doesn’t seem like going to any of those programs hinders you. There’s also former aoa cards, GI etc programs though I don’t know how competitive they are now after the merger, in essence IT IS ALL about prestige since doing cards from mgh, JHH “sounds better” then doing it from a former aoa cards program, same deal with IM residency in terms of top tier vs mid tier vs low tier, I seriously doubt that going to a low mid tier, or low tier university IM will make much of a difference at the end of the day, there’s also strong community programs that math into fellowships very well. So in essence it is nothing more then prestige and not about how good of a doctor you will be, if every single mid tier, low tier IM program for example stopped considering DO’s outright then maybe you would have a case but it’s not the case right now.

 

[Dwan]

I get “options” but in essence it’s just prestige as there are other programs close enough to UCSD like UC Irvine, UC Riverside, scrips and others that do take DO’s more frequently then UCSD and looking at their fellowship match list it doesn’t seem like going to any of those programs hinders you. There’s also former aoa cards, GI etc programs though I don’t know how competitive they are now after the merger, in essence IT IS ALL about prestige since doing cards from mgh, JHH “sounds better” then doing it from a former aoa cards program, same deal with IM residency in terms of top tier vs mid tier vs low tier, I seriously doubt that going to a low mid tier, or low tier university IM will make much of a difference at the end of the day, there’s also strong community programs that math into fellowships very well. So in essence it is nothing more then prestige and not about how good of a doctor you will be, if every single mid tier, low tier IM program for example stopped considering DO’s outright then maybe you would have a case but it’s not the case right now.

You are looking at the residents who already matched, not the match rate. I interviewed at UCI and Scripps, and there are definitely issues with getting competitive fields from those, plus the DOs that make it into those programs are stellar (A past post mentioned that Scripps had a 250 cutoff for their away for DO, while 220 for MD). The last DO that got a competitive fellowship from Scripps (Cardiology) was in 2011. https://www.scripps.org/sparkle-ass...nternal-medicine-residency-program-alumni.pdf
People always look at the best case scenario (where the strong DO applicants are able to match, and where the best residents are able to match from a program), but most people are not going to be at the top. A mediocre MD app is nearly guaranteed to interview at both Scripps and UCI IM, the same cannot be said for a great DO app, even if we see that DOs can get into these programs.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Top schools already benifited even before the Step 1 P/F because their students with low Step 1/2 scores match into top institutions comapared to the lower tier MD schools with equivalent scores. This is also seen with Mid-tier MD schools and DO schools also.

 

[Med.School.Hopeful]

Keep in mind guys, we all descended upon this thread when OP was talking about matching the upper echelons of specialties. As it stands now, outside of surgical fields and derm, a DO can match any field if they aren’t picky about geography. But you will have less opportunities than the exact same app with different initials after your name.

As far as “strong programs,” I get the feeling on sdn that everyone seems to think that only 20% of programs in any field will train you well and that’s just not the case. The majority of programs in any field will train you well. There’s malignancy at “top” programs too, guys.

As long as you don’t go to “Bubba Gump’s Shrimp Shack and Internal Medicine Emporium” for residency, you’ll be a good doctor if you want to be a good doctor.

But what if I really like shrimp and the beach side? 😵

 

[Billroth_III]

Is it that crazy that I would absolutely just love to match my specialty of interest (general surgery) right now and couldn't care less what the name of the residency is as long as I get good training?

 

[Darrow O'Lykos]

Is it that crazy that I would absolutely just love to match my specialty of interest (general surgery) right now and couldn't care less what the name of the residency is as long as I get good training?

To the doomsayers in the echochamber of SDN, yes.

To literally anyone else: no.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is it that crazy that I would absolutely just love to match my specialty of interest (general surgery) right now and couldn't care less what the name of the residency is as long as I get good training?

Absolutely not, but the “as long as I get good training” part is the catch. In some fields any match is a good match (ortho, ENT, etc) but in others there absolutely are weak programs out there you shouldn’t want to train at.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I get “options” but in essence it’s just prestige as there are other programs close enough to UCSD like UC Irvine, UC Riverside, scrips and others that do take DO’s more frequently then UCSD and looking at their fellowship match list it doesn’t seem like going to any of those programs hinders you. There’s also former aoa cards, GI etc programs though I don’t know how competitive they are now after the merger, in essence IT IS ALL about prestige since doing cards from mgh, JHH “sounds better” then doing it from a former aoa cards program, same deal with IM residency in terms of top tier vs mid tier vs low tier, I seriously doubt that going to a low mid tier, or low tier university IM will make much of a difference at the end of the day, there’s also strong community programs that math into fellowships very well. So in essence it is nothing more then prestige and not about how good of a doctor you will be, if every single mid tier, low tier IM program for example stopped considering DO’s outright then maybe you would have a case but it’s not the case right now.

The differences in prestige across the institutions have almost nothing to do with clinical medicine.

The reason why prestigious institutions are prestigious is because they produce individuals that are performing at a high level wayyy beyond simply seeing patients. These are places that are generating high-impact research, writing protocols that other physicians follow and produce lobbyists and policy-makers that shape the field.

PDs at other elite institutions recognise this and want continued access to that network. Part of the cost to play ball is that you give greater consideration to those students - which is a big reason why a person with at 205 on step 1 from HMS can match at Hopkins whereas a DO with a 250 can't.

 

[slowthai]

The differences in prestige across the institutions have almost nothing to do with clinical medicine.

The reason why prestigious institutions are prestigious is because they produce individuals that are performing at a high level wayyy beyond simply seeing patients. These are places that are generating high-impact research, writing protocols that other physicians follow and produce lobbyists and policy-makers that shape the field.

PDs at other elite institutions recognise this and want continued access to that network. Part of the cost to play ball is that you give greater consideration to those students - which is a big reason why a person with at 205 on step 1 from HMS can match at Hopkins whereas a DO with a 250 can't.

Translation: They want research slaves that'll inflate their CVs

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Translation: They want research slaves that'll inflate their CVs

Not quite. Most of these places have an abundance of undergrads, grad students and postdocs for that.

They want people who are gonna get grants, publish and/or match well and have enough connections to keep that revolving door of researchers going.

If you cant do research then do admin

If you cant do admin then policy

If you can't do any of the above match elsewhere.

 

[Chibucks15]

Maybe slightly off topic, but do you guys think there is a big risk of Step 2 going P/F soon? Should a D.O class of 2025 be very worried? Or would it likely be farther down the line if it happens?

Even if it does there’s no reason to get very worried. You can’t change anything and it serves you no purpose. Don’t be neurotic cmon now.

 

[BuildingMyOwnLuck]

Maybe slightly off topic, but do you guys think there is a big risk of Step 2 going P/F soon? Should a D.O class of 2025 be very worried? Or would it likely be farther down the line if it happens?

Realistically, they have to wait and see the impact of P/F Step 1 before making Step 2 P/F as having no scores (apart from class rank lol) makes choosing residents a little difficult. Step 1 P/F already gave a nice boost to MDs, I'm sure they'll be happy for now. Only thing to do is to wait and see.