Competitive to go to med school overseas?

[surgeon_hopeful]

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Hi,

since medical school and such is extremely expensive in the US, I have been considering, if I do choose to do medicine (I'm considering pharmacy) to perhaps go international instead. The question I have though is how difficult would it be to go to medical school, especially in India (just because I'm indian 😀 and also india would be a place I wouldn't mind living in), internationally as opposed the schools in US? The main thing I'm really worried about for med school is that I won't get in, so is applying internationally (as in going to a US school for undergrad, and then applying to an indian or international med school) perhaps an easier way to get accepted? And if you do get accepted, how hard is it to match into residencies in other countries? Are things like surgery or cardiology similar in competition, easier, or what?

thanks!

btw, the places I'd most like to go to med school internationally in no particular order would be:
-Europe
-India
-Japan or similar asian place (ie singapore, etc.)
-Australia

 

[Meatwad]

This has been addressed alot. Do a search, and read these recent threads:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=422018

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=415007

Basically, these offshore schools are extremely easy to get into. Some are practically open admissions. However, they have a very tough curriculum and many students flunk out of the first to third years. It can be as high as 40%, as I'm told by a friend attending one (albeit in the native language program).

Also, if you plan on a competitive residency, look elsewhere. IMGs are discriminated against, and you will be fighting a steep uphill battle. You will most likely end up in family medicine, internal medicine, psychology, or pediatrics.

Schools in Europe that are NOT easy to get into include: Schools in Britain, Ireland, Scotland, and native language programs (i.e. Karolinska Institutet in Sweden teaches in Swedish only. Even if you learned Swedish, it is uber-competitive to get in there).

Chances of getting into medical school in Japan is slim to none, sorry. First off, you must be fluent in spoken and written Japanese (all those wonderful kanji...). You are given no special consideration due to your nationality or prior education. I've never heard of an American, or really a foreigner in general, getting into a Japanese medical school. Supposedly it is very fierce competition.

Singapore is supposed to be very compettitive as well. Hong Kong requires fluency in Cantonese before matriculation and is not easy to get into. Some Chinese med schools teach in English, but they are not really well-resepected globally.

Australia is a good choice, although it is an expensive one. You just need to take the GAMSAT and have an undergraduate degree in anything. Interview well, and you have a good shot at getting in. It is not as hard to get into as a US med school I don't think, but it's not a (basically) guaranteed admission like there is in Poland, Hungary, CR (English programs).

Sorry, can't help you with India; no interest in living there, myself. Unstable region and lots of poverty, plus the fact I won't fit in (caucasian) means I'd probably have a rough time trying to study medicine.

You could also look into Israel (talk about unstable region...). They have a few good schools that teach in English, and supposedly are well respected on the East and West coast of the US. I believe they are: Ben-Gurion, Sackler, and Technion.

Have you thought about the Caribbean? It's a way easier and well-trodden path if you want to be a doctor in the US. As far as being a doctor in Europe, you need to speak the language of the country you want to do a residency in. However, you won't make much money in comparison wih a US doctor. With this pay, it would literally take you your entire life to pay back loans. Euro schools are much cheaper than US schools (only about 20 grand a year when you factor in tuition + housing + food + transpo), but that stills leaves you with an impossible debt to pay off if you are making 14 grand a year. So, if you want to go to med school in Europe AND practice there, learn the language NOW of the country you like most and go to medical school there in the native language. For example:

If you want to be a doctor in Germany, get fluent in German now. Apply to a German med school (they only teach in German). Medical school will be free for you (yup, free!) as it is for all students. You just have to pay for living expenses. Then, when you graduate with little debt, you can afford to practice there and pay back your debts. That's the only way it's feasible, though.

 

[surgeon_hopeful]

hey man, first of thanks for the wonderful, long reply.

I was wondering about Australia and India mostly. See with the Carribean, I'm worried that I won't be able to get into a General Surgery or Orthopedic Surgery residency, which is why I wasn't really looking into it. That, and the fact that I wouldn't really like to live in the Carribeans (isn't there a lot of poverty there?) is why I haven't really considered it that much.

Lets say I go to med school in australia, since you said thats at least a decent option. So my plan is, so that I graduate with the least possible debt, to go to a state school where I should pick up pretty good financial aid (maybe even full ride or damn near close to it, not to brag or anything), and then maybe go to med school in Australia. Even if it is expensive, my parents should be able to pay off that much somehow (especially if I go to a cheap undergrad), but would it be relatively easy to then go to India to practice from Australia? Like I said, I'm not sure really how much I want to practice in the US given how unstable healthcare is there, so would that be a relatively good plan? And also, how hard would it be to pick up perhaps a residency in India as a ENT or Orthopedic surgeon? General Surgery is my backup, but could I possibly get a residency in ENT or Orthopedic surgery from med school in australia in either the US or India? Not to be cocky, but I feel that once I get into med school that I don't think I should flunk out. I've tried numerous subjects, and human anatomy/physiology, and all the life sciences are something I love and will work hard at anyways to understand. And even in the subjects I suck at, I'm a hardworker, so I know that I'll do well once in med school, its just getting in, since it can be random at times is what scares me.

Oh and by the way, if I get good at german now and apply to school in germany, would it be possible to again work in India from there or something?

 

[Meatwad]

You said somewhere "assuming I go to a state school," did you mean for your undergrad education? In that case, you're not even in college yet, so why would you be considering these options yet? Get good grades and do well on the MCAT and go to a US med school. If you can't get in there, then you can go abroad.

Also, I'd say living conditions in the Caribbean can't be any worse than many parts of India. That's cool if you want to help out the healthcare system in India as well, but I wouldn't buy into the whole "US healthcare is in a major crisis," thing that is being spewed these days by the media. You can read a lot of arguments about it on here.

Anyway, to highlight Australian med schools, I'm pretty sure they are very expensive (about the same price as US med schools). Practicing in India after an Aussie med school would probably be very improbable due to a very heavy debt. Your best bet would to do a residency in the US, work for a decade, pay off your loans, then go back to India and practice. Sorry, don't know much about getting a residency in India. I do know they have some list of schools that you can go to abroad that will allow you to practice medicine in India. I believe you have to sit for a state exam as well.

As far as getting ortho or ENT: wow, man, way to pick REALLY difficult specialties to get into! If you want to do a residency in either of them in the US, going to a foreign med school is a really bad idea. I think this past match, only around 1% of ortho residencies were given to IMGs; that's only a couple of people out of all the foreign doctors trying for ortho. It's very competitive. Same for ENT. Only a handful of very select IMGs get into this residency. A lot of times they have extensive research, very high USMLE scores, and were most likely already ENT-trained in their own country (i.e. not just out of med school; probably practicing in their home country for years already).

Like I said before, I don't know much about India, never looked into it myself. I do know, though, if you ever want to get a residency like ortho or ENT in the US your best bet is:

1) US MD (allopathic) med schools
2) US DO (osteopathic) med schools
3) Select schools in Caribbean (SGU, Ross, SABA, AUC), Irish schools
4) Australian schools, Israeli schools
5) European schools (preferably native language, but a select few English language ones are kosher)

If you learn German and go to med school there, I'm almost positive you'd have no problem practicing in India. Germany has very respected medical schools in the international community. Top notch education. However, if you even think about this option, start studying NOW! Hire a tutor. Take German classes at school. It's not an easy language, and you have to be fluent (obviously) to be able to pass the state language exam. You flunk the exam, you don't get into a med school. Italian, Spanish, and French are easier languages, and would also allow you to go to med school in their countries if you have good grades and speak the language. I'm sure India recognizes all the med schools in these 3 countries as well.

 

[surgeon_hopeful]

how hard is DO to get into for med school? I've seen a lot of people talk bad about DOs though, so what are the disadvantages of being a DO? Do they not make good money or something?

Oh and by the way, I'm not ONLY looking at surgery by the way. I actually wouldn't mind doing Internal Med, which you said isn't too bad to get into internationally, but I'd like to specialize and not just be a general doc. I would ideally like to do card, but even pulmonary or oncology is cool, so would it be hard to score a fellowship as an IMG?

EDIT: Does IMG stand for international med grad or something?

 

[Meatwad]

Yeah, IMG = int'l medical graduate.

DO's make the same amount of money as MDs. Osteopathic schools, have lower MCAT scores and GPAs on average than allopathic schools, so its a good option if someone's grades aren't 3.6/30. Some countries, though, have different traditional ostepathic schools (more like chropractors) so you are limited to what you can do there. Check into India specifically. However, in the US, DO's can do it all. THey are actually at an advantage in a way when it comes to getting a residency. They can apply to DO residencies AND MD residencies; so they have much more choices to apply to. Your chances of getting into ortho or ENT are much greater being a DO than an IMG; MUCH greater.

As far as getting a cards or pulm fellowship as an IMG, it happens all the time. Just do really well at your IM residency, make a lot of friends, and you'll probably get a fellowship appointment. It's very competitive to get cards/onc these days, but like I said, it is much more possible than getting ortho/ent/plastics/ophtho/derm/rads as a residency.

 

[surgeon_hopeful]

ok, but why are DOs still disadvantaged when it comes to getting into top residencies? If they are no different from Allopaths, then why is it a road less traveled and so much easier to get into? There has to be something that is causing people to go allo instead of DO right?

But anyways, is there still a good chance of landing some surgery residency from DO? Like I said, even if I get general surgery, which I heard is in terrible shape right now, I'd like to specialize in some way somehow by doing a fellowship, so can I at least land general surg or maybe neuro from DO with reasonable chance? I'd rather then go international if I have no chance of getting into those (and those btw aren't even that competitive by the way) and save money/practice in India than spend a $hitload of $ to not do surgery.

Oh one last thing, if I do go DO, would it be hard then to transfer to india if I don't want to practice here anymore?

thanks for bearing with me.

 

[Meatwad]

ok, but why are DOs still disadvantaged when it comes to getting into top residencies? If they are no different from Allopaths, then why is it a road less traveled and so much easier to get into? There has to be something that is causing people to go allo instead of DO right?

Good question, and the answer is that a lot of people are biased and ignorant (yes, even doctors can be ignorant). The stigma is that if you went to a DO school, you couldn't get into an allopathic school. However, due to the extreme competitition for an MD these days, getting ainto a DO school isn't a piece of cake. Having the DO after your name these days is not as much of a disadvantage as it probably was 25 years ago. Every single year there are DOs that match into dermatology, neurosurgery, etc. For Americans going to foreign medical schools, the numbers are more likely zero to a few getting these types of residencies. So, if you want a competitive residency and you can't get into an MD school, a DO is definitely the way to go.

But anyways, is there still a good chance of landing some surgery residency from DO? Like I said, even if I get general surgery, which I heard is in terrible shape right now, I'd like to specialize in some way somehow by doing a fellowship, so can I at least land general surg or maybe neuro from DO with reasonable chance?

Getting into any surgery is more than possible with a DO degree; it happens many, many times at every DO school in the country every year. With decent USMLE scores (test that all MD students take, and is optional for DO students; you only take this one if you want to apply to an MD residency) or COMLEX scores (test only DOs are allowed to take; these are used to apply for DO residencies), you have a great shot at getting surgery at some hospital. General surgery is not that competitive these days, but it will be much easier to get it from DO than from a foreign MD. If you think you want neurosurgery, don't even think of an offshore school; it's extremely rare that an IMG gets neuro. IMGs that get neuro either have a strong connection (family member or something at the program) or are trained in neuro in their country already.

As far as a fellowship after GS, it's entirely possible for either an IMG or a DO. They don't really care about your school for a fellowship (unless you are applying to Harvard or something), they care more about how your performed in your residency and the LORs you get.

I'd rather then go international if I have no chance of getting into those (and those btw aren't even that competitive by the way) and save money/practice in India than spend a $hitload of $ to not do surgery.

Hmm, you don't think neurosurgery is competitive? It is in fact one of the most difficult to get into, so I'm not sure why you'd say it's not even that competitive.

Oh one last thing, if I do go DO, would it be hard then to transfer to india if I don't want to practice here anymore?

thanks for bearing with me.

You can practice with no restrictions as a DO in these countries:

Unlimited Practice:

Argentina
Australia
Austria
Bahamas
Belize
Bermuda
Brazil
Canada
Cayman Islands
Central African Empire
Chile
China
Colombia
Costa Rica
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Finland
Germany
Greece
Guyana
Honduras
Hong Kong
India (must obtain for nationality first)
Israel (must obtain nationality first)
Italy
Lebanon
Liberia
Luxembourg
Micronesia
Nepal
New Zealand
Nigeria
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Russia
St. Lucia
Saudi Arabia
Scotland
Sierra Leone
Sweden
Taiwan
Tanzania
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
Vietnam
Zambia

It seems you need to be an Indian national, or permanent resident of some sort before you can practice there. I'm sure this is the same if you were a foreigner and had an MD. If you wanted to work as a missionary doctor, it'd be very easy to practice in any country of the world, regardless of nationality or MD/DO/IMG-MD.

Bottom line is, if you even are thinking about the US and a moderate-highly competitive residency, think USMD/USDO. If you are 99.99% positive you don't want to practice here, than I guess I'd go wih the cheapest option possible (which is Romania/Russia/China).

 

[omniatlas]

btw, the places I'd most like to go to med school internationally in no particular order would be:
-Europe
-India
-Japan or similar asian place (ie singapore, etc.)
-Australia

You could take a look at IMU (International Medical University http://www.imu.edu.my) in Malaysia. IMU has a twinning program with many partner schools around the world (including Jefferson, U.Sydney, Melbourne, Edinburgh). You don't decide where you twin with until your 4th semester. You will spend your first two and a half years (basic science) in the Kuala Lumpur/Bukit Jalil campus and your subsequent rotation years in your partner medical school and eventually graduate with a degree with your twinning partner medical school.

10% of the population in Malaysia is Indian so this may appeal to you. And yes, I do attend IMU and its great coming back to my country after spending all these years abroad 🙂

 

[Meatwad]

You could take a look at IMU (International Medical University http://www.imu.edu.my) in Malaysia. IMU has a twinning program with many partner schools around the world (including Jefferson, U.Sydney, Melbourne, Edinburgh). You don't decide where you twin with until your 4th semester. You will spend your first two and a half years (basic science) in the Kuala Lumpur/Bukit Jalil campus and your subsequent rotation years in your partner medical school and eventually graduate with a degree with your twinning partner medical school.

10% of the population in Malaysia is Indian so this may appeal to you. And yes, I do attend IMU and its great coming back to my country after spending all these years abroad 🙂

Thing is, the OP is asking about competitiveness of admission. Isn't it very competitive to get into Malaysian med school? I't seems its very hard to get in, which is why so many Malaysian students are going to medical schools in places like Eastern Europe these days.

 

[omniatlas]

Thing is, the OP is asking about competitiveness of admission. Isn't it very competitive to get into Malaysian med school? I't seems its very hard to get in, which is why so many Malaysian students are going to medical schools in places like Eastern Europe these days.

Malaysians go abroad because of the gov's discriminatory affirmative action policy. IMU is private (but expensive for Malaysia standards) so if students don't place in one of the public universities they will go somewhere else abroad.

I have peers that have scored very well in the pre-University exams and some that have not but have still secured a place in the medicine program.

Theres an IMU thread in the Australia section of this board that might answer some of your questions 😎

 

[surgeon_hopeful]

lol dude I'm not saying neuro is easy!! Come on, just because I'm in high school doesn't mean I'm that stupid. I said neurology, because I have always liked the brain. Neurosurgery would be f-ing sweet but I don't have the brains for that!

 

[I am Hans]

I just wanted to correct the excellent but erroneous information from Zolar in regards to general surgery competitiveness.

While not as competitive as Plastics or Neurosurgery, general surgery has been one of the most competitive matches - both allo and osteo - over the last 3 years with a large percentage of applicants going unmatched. There are many preliminary surgery positions open after the match, but most candidates are not interested in these and therefore this should not be looked at in assessing the competitiveness of general surgery.

Unlike some of the surgical specialties, general surgery will still consider a highly select FMG on its match list. As noted above, the changes of an FMG matching into Neurosurg, Derm, etc. is highly unlikely.

 

[Meatwad]

Sorry, I suppose I did sort of write-off GS as easy to get into. I just meant that in comparison with Neurosurgery/plastics/ENT/ortho, derm, etc. you have a better chance of getting a GS spot.

As for neurology, it is probably just a tad more difficult to get into than FP or psych, but not much. However, since there is a very healthy interest in neuroscience research these days, I'd expect neurology to get more popular and therefore more competitive in the future.

 

[I am Hans]

Sorry, I suppose I did sort of write-off GS as easy to get into. I just meant that in comparison with Neurosurgery/plastics/ENT/ortho, derm, etc. you have a better chance of getting a GS spot.

As for neurology, it is probably just a tad more difficult to get into than FP or psych, but not much. However, since there is a very healthy interest in neuroscience research these days, I'd expect neurology to get more popular and therefore more competitive in the future.

No apologies necessary; its just my personal goal to correct this common fallacy. Obviously general surgery was very uncompetitive a few years ago (otherwise I might not have matched!) and many faculty (non-surgeons) still believe this to be the case. But you are absolutely right...in comparison to Neurosurg, ENT, Ortho, Derm, etc. general surgery is quite easy to match in to. Of course, the situation with general surgery may change by the time the OP gets to applying (he has college and med school to do still)!

I agree with you in regards to Neurology - not a very popular specialty, and generally in the bottom tier in regards to difficulty in matching, but it has seen a surgence (I'm not sure if that's a word) of interest, and as you note there is an increased interest in neuroscience, so that may change as well over the years.

 

[Ki45toryu]

No offense, but you shouldnt put the cart before the horse. You have to do well in your undergrad program in order to get into medical school. If you are only worried about paying for medical school in the US then you have little to fear. There is a multitude of state and government programs that can pay back your tuition for you.

You should probably be more worried about doing well in your undergrad work to ensure a position in med school....which is seeing more and more applicants every year.

 

[sga430]

stop thinking just about getting into med school. ask urself this. u go to india for med school. u want to do ortho or radio. then u come back to the US and apply to ortho or radio programs. this will be 100x more difficult than getting into a med school. trust me. stay in the us.

 

[totalestatic]

stop thinking just about getting into med school. ask urself this. u go to india for med school. u want to do ortho or radio. then u come back to the US and apply to ortho or radio programs. this will be 100x more difficult than getting into a med school. trust me. stay in the us.

Why do i not see any posts for nursing anywhere? Can someone help me? thanks!

 

[surgeon_hopeful]

No offense, but you shouldnt put the cart before the horse. You have to do well in your undergrad program in order to get into medical school. If you are only worried about paying for medical school in the US then you have little to fear. There is a multitude of state and government programs that can pay back your tuition for you.

You should probably be more worried about doing well in your undergrad work to ensure a position in med school....which is seeing more and more applicants every year.

oh trust me, I'm plenty worried about getting into med school. Don't worry about that lol. But I was wondering if it is seriously THAT hard also. If you get a 3.7 and a 28-30 with other ECs, aren't you basically set? Given that I probably (ok, definately) won't be going to harvard, but still?

 

[Meatwad]

oh trust me, I'm plenty worried about getting into med school. Don't worry about that lol. But I was wondering if it is seriously THAT hard also. If you get a 3.7 and a 28-30 with other ECs, aren't you basically set? Given that I probably (ok, definately) won't be going to harvard, but still?

No, even with that GPA and MCAT you are far from guaranteed. People with those stats every year apply and not all of them get in. There are a lot of intangibles (interviewing skills, personality, quality of your ECs, letters of reccomendation, other applicants vying for spots against you that year, etc.) that make it a "crap shoot." Maybe if you had 4.0/45 you would be guaranteed at least to a few schools.

With a 3.7/30, you have a good chance of getting admission; far from a slam-dunk, though.

 

[undecide]

Singapore is supposed to be very compettitive as well.

It is really really even much more competitive if you're not local. People coming in with nearly perfect scores for Local (Singapore-Cambridge) GCE A Levels cannot even guarantee an interview.

 

[Repeat]

This has been addressed alot. Do a search, and read these recent threads:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=422018

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=415007

Basically, these offshore schools are extremely easy to get into. Some are practically open admissions. However, they have a very tough curriculum and many students flunk out of the first to third years. It can be as high as 40%, as I'm told by a friend attending one (albeit in the native language program).

Also, if you plan on a competitive residency, look elsewhere. IMGs are discriminated against, and you will be fighting a steep uphill battle. You will most likely end up in family medicine, internal medicine, psychology, or pediatrics.

Schools in Europe that are NOT easy to get into include: Schools in Britain, Ireland, Scotland, and native language programs (i.e. Karolinska Institutet in Sweden teaches in Swedish only. Even if you learned Swedish, it is uber-competitive to get in there).

Chances of getting into medical school in Japan is slim to none, sorry. First off, you must be fluent in spoken and written Japanese (all those wonderful kanji...). You are given no special consideration due to your nationality or prior education. I've never heard of an American, or really a foreigner in general, getting into a Japanese medical school. Supposedly it is very fierce competition.

Singapore is supposed to be very compettitive as well. Hong Kong requires fluency in Cantonese before matriculation and is not easy to get into. Some Chinese med schools teach in English, but they are not really well-resepected globally.

Australia is a good choice, although it is an expensive one. You just need to take the GAMSAT and have an undergraduate degree in anything. Interview well, and you have a good shot at getting in. It is not as hard to get into as a US med school I don't think, but it's not a (basically) guaranteed admission like there is in Poland, Hungary, CR (English programs).

Sorry, can't help you with India; no interest in living there, myself. Unstable region and lots of poverty, plus the fact I won't fit in (caucasian) means I'd probably have a rough time trying to study medicine.

You could also look into Israel (talk about unstable region...). They have a few good schools that teach in English, and supposedly are well respected on the East and West coast of the US. I believe they are: Ben-Gurion, Sackler, and Technion.

Have you thought about the Caribbean? It's a way easier and well-trodden path if you want to be a doctor in the US. As far as being a doctor in Europe, you need to speak the language of the country you want to do a residency in. However, you won't make much money in comparison wih a US doctor. With this pay, it would literally take you your entire life to pay back loans. Euro schools are much cheaper than US schools (only about 20 grand a year when you factor in tuition + housing + food + transpo), but that stills leaves you with an impossible debt to pay off if you are making 14 grand a year. So, if you want to go to med school in Europe AND practice there, learn the language NOW of the country you like most and go to medical school there in the native language. For example:

If you want to be a doctor in Germany, get fluent in German now. Apply to a German med school (they only teach in German). Medical school will be free for you (yup, free!) as it is for all students. You just have to pay for living expenses. Then, when you graduate with little debt, you can afford to practice there and pay back your debts. That's the only way it's feasible, though.

14 grand a year?

Do you think we live in threes and throw crap at eachother in Europe? 😀

 

[Meatwad]

14 grand a year?

Do you think we live in threes and throw crap at eachother in Europe? 😀

Sorry, I should have specified; Eastern Europe.

 

[sga430]

if ur ok with limitting you specialities to family, psych, IM, nuclear medicine and maybe surgery (if ur lucky to match in those; of course there r exceptions) then it is fine to go abroad. if ur ok to limiting urself to 1 horse towns and inner city hoods to do ur residency go abroad. if ur ok to spend a year or 2 extra struggling to get a residency go abroad. of course there r exceptions.

also i recommend against going to india. i admit it seems fun to go there for a month or two to see all ur relatives and all but think about going for years. well i did have fun in india but sometimes i wonder how it would have been if i instead went to the 7 year program i got into. if i went here i would have been practicing rather than be pgy1. the best thing to do is do ur undergrad here and get the experience. if u dont get in to med school here, find a 4 year program in east europe or the carribean. dunno if they have any 4 year programs in india except maybe that program at manipal which u do some time in the carribean as well. if u want indian culture there is trinidad and tobago (dunno if they got med schools there.) it is 50% indian and in the carribean. also dutch guinea in south america (dont know the new name) has a lot of indians.

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