Complete loss of good order and discipline?

[DrMetal]

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Have we just completely lost all good order and discipline in this military?

Subordinates refusing to follow lawful orders. Superiors refusing to punish them (for fear of retribution, administrative headaches, whatever have you). Members flat out refusing PCS orders, orchestrating their own assignments (in very shady ways). Shady promotions, not enough demotions where needed

No more weight standards, everyone looks like crap in their uniforms, guts, beards, tattoos (now on the hands and face, excused for cultural reasons).

I mean, what is going on? It seems like everybody is basically doing WTF they want.

I don't mean to mean to be an old man yelling at clouds, but I guess I am!

 

[DOswag]

Have we just completely lost all good order and discipline in this military?

Subordinates refusing to follow lawful orders. Superiors refusing to punish them (for fear of retribution, administrative headaches, whatever have you). Members flat out refusing PCS orders, orchestrating their own assignments (in very shady ways). Shady promotions, not enough demotions where needed

No more weight standards, everyone looks like crap in their uniforms, guts, beards, tattoos (now on the hands and face, excused for cultural reasons).

I mean, what is going on? It seems like everybody is basically doing WTF they want.

I don't mean to mean to be an old man yelling at clouds, but I guess I am!

Big part of it right here. Mil has allowed woke and PC culture to infiltrate it in a major way.

 

[DrMetal]

Big part of it right here. Mil has allowed woke and PC culture to infiltrate it in a major way.

Is quite true.

But it just shocking, that nobody want's to do what they're being told to do. I mean, you can be as woke as you want, if you work at McDonalds, you still have to flip burgers, or your get fired that day.

I'm just seeing a breakdown in even the basic things we do. Like writing orders, passing weight standards, etc, Just the basic stuff!

 

[DOswag]

I agree and yes the mindset in younger individuals it seems has shifted from previous generations of respect for authority and enduring hardship to "I should be able do whatever I want and you shouldn't be able to do anything about it" sort of thinking. Appears culturally we've taken on a mentality that is, dare I say it, much softer in a lot of areas.

 

[DrMetal]

I agree and yes the mindset in younger individuals it seems has shifted from previous generations of respect for authority and enduring hardship to "I should be able do whatever I want and you shouldn't be able to do anything about it" sort of thinking. Appears culturally we've taken on a mentality that is, dare I say it, much softer in a lot of areas.

But look, even in the civilian world (which I would argue, is way more disciplined than the mil), you still have to do a job, still have to answer to someone.

In the mil, it just seems like there's utter disregard, total apathy, in some places at least.

 

[NewYorkDoctors]

Have we just completely lost all good order and discipline in this military?

Subordinates refusing to follow lawful orders. Superiors refusing to punish them (for fear of retribution, administrative headaches, whatever have you). Members flat out refusing PCS orders, orchestrating their own assignments (in very shady ways). Shady promotions, not enough demotions where needed

No more weight standards, everyone looks like crap in their uniforms, guts, beards, tattoos (now on the hands and face, excused for cultural reasons).

I mean, what is going on? It seems like everybody is basically doing WTF they want.

I don't mean to mean to be an old man yelling at clouds, but I guess I am!

lol so those sh it posts on X about the military ARE FOR REAL. yikes we gonna lose the next war. only one person can save us from the next war.
i won't go any further on SDN haha other than i am a non-white younger millenial (not gen Z) who lives in NYC and is fed up with the total lack of standards these days in NYC and other similar cities.

 

[ForgedByTheShore]

It’s not that bad. IMO, the Navy hasn’t changed much in the 10 years I’ve been in. Except for getting noticeably fatter.

On my ship, the #1 reason for sailors being sent to XOI/DRB/NJP is Article 92 violations, followed by drug/alcohol issues. 100+ sailors were on restriction or liberty risk during our last port call. I’m sure plenty of disciplinary infractions were swept under the rug for different sailors, with or without counseling chits, but patterns of bad behavior continue to be punished appropriately. From my experience, a corrupt/lazy chief’s mess is usually to blame when there’s a breakdown in accountability for disciplinary violations.

Beards are everywhere because, in today’s Navy, PFB is widely prevalent. Some sailors certainly flout the rules and walk around unshaven without no shave chits, or exceed the 1/4 inch “modified grooming standards,” but most follow the instruction correctly.

Out of regs tattoos perhaps are more prevalent than a decade ago, but this is the Navy, a branch seeped in tattoo culture/tradition, so there seems to be greater leniency to those who stretch the rules. “Unprofessional”, sure, but not a sign of the Navy’s imminent moral collapse.

As for this “woke military” conspiracy theorizing, I simply don’t see it on the deckplates of a large deck. Many of our Gen Z enlistees are from ethnic backgrounds that are culturally quite conservative. Evening prayer on the 1MC is still a thing (ridiculous). A few pride flags materialized on the mess decks for pride month, but an email to all hands was sent by Legal specifying that the pride flag is not authorized per the referenced NAVADMIN, and the flags disappeared.

But if you want to talk about how out of shape and obese the Navy has become, I’m in complete agreement there.

 

[Just Call Me Doc]

It's been going that way for awhile now. I remember back in 2007 going to Benning for jump school and was amazed at the insolence of the junior army enlisted. Saw a private talk back to an officer and wanted to drop-kick him in the chest. But there was nothing we could do (couldn't even have them drop for 25). The drill instructor on my stick kept apologizing profusely about the situation and said there's nothing they could do. Apparently the basic training CG's wife was aghast at the swearing and "harsh treatment" by the drill instructors so the CG passed down that you couldn't swear at the recruits (or even call them maggots) or even discipline them with push ups. The theory was that the unit they get sent to could polish them up (though doubt happens very often). Wonder how much worse it's gotten.

 

[DrMetal]

I don't blame wokeness. Again, you can be as woke as you want and still do your job.

Lazy is the better adjective. I also don't think it a problem just amongst the enlisted, I'm seeing many "Officers Gond Wild" as well (showing up to work drunk, blatant disregard for their primary job, etc).

The legal/disciplinary mechanisms are very slow, probably because we (non-lawyers, non-admin, non-HR people) are in charge of it.

 

[armytrainingsir]

When you can’t hit recruiting numbers year after year, you have to make enlisting a bit more palatable and friendlier, especially on social media.

“You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.“


As western culture continues its slow decline, I guess we’ll find out sooner or later if we can still win a conflict with insolent fatties.

 

[armytrainingsir]

As for this “woke military” conspiracy theorizing, I simply don’t see it on the deckplates of a large deck. Many of our Gen Z enlistees are from ethnic backgrounds that are culturally quite conservative. Evening prayer on the 1MC is still a thing (ridiculous). A few pride flags materialized on the mess decks for pride month, but an email to all hands was sent by Legal specifying that the pride flag is not authorized per the referenced NAVADMIN, and the flags disappeared.

Umm, you better check back on the navy pride thing.

Official US Navy Special Forces page draws backlash for ringing in Pride month: 'Navy SEALs have gone woke'

The Facebook account for Navy Special Warfare celebrated the beginning of "pride month," causing backlash on social media.

www.foxnews.com

 

[DrMetal]

When you can’t hit recruiting numbers year after year, you have to make enlisting a bit more palatable and friendlier, especially on social media.

“You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.“


As western culture continues its slow decline, I guess we’ll find out sooner or later if we can still win a conflict with insolent fatties.

Fundamental problem is, our Active Duty component is too big for a peace-time military. Yeah, I said it, we have too many people on active duty, especially in the supportive (non warfighting) communities. The Founding Fathers never intended for this. They never intended for the active duty military to balloon up and become the big stagnant welfare-state that it is today. They wanted a strong reserve force that could quickly escalate to fight wars, and de-escalate during peacetime. And that was mostly the case up until 1945.

Most of us in supportive roles (doctors, lawyers, engineers, chaplains) should be reservists.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Eliminate DHA and military GME. Downsize HPSP/USU significantly and make it a reservist-only obligation.

We don't need any active duty doctors.

 

[armytrainingsir]

Eliminate DHA and military GME. Downsize HPSP/USU significantly and make it a reservist-only obligation.

We don't need any active duty doctors.

We need a few. But not nearly the numbers on AD now.

A bit of thinking outside the box could result in a huge pool of enthusiastic reservists for a fraction of the cost of maintaining legions of unhappy physicians on AD.

But dang it, Napoleon had his surgeon, so the no name battalion commander at Fort PC Correct Name will too!!!!

 

[Baron Samedi]

We need a few. But not nearly the numbers on AD now.

I can't think of too many situations where GS/Contractor wouldn't do the trick.

 

[armytrainingsir]

I can't think of too many situations where GS/Contractor wouldn't do the trick.

For routine care? Sure.

But you have to have a critical mass of physicians in the organization to know how to deploy physicians within the organization when needed; otherwise you’re gonna end up right where we’re at now with every two bit commander with 500 troops , thinking he’s Napoleon, entitled to his own special staff 24/7.

I do think military medicine is a thing, but it’s blown all out of proportion now.

Some sort of a hybrid trauma/command/administrative mil physician career pathway between career oriented, yet right minded, active duty physicians that rotate in and out of large trauma centers to stay clinically relevant, and big army to be able to effectively support doctrine.

 

[HQCare]

Is quite true.

But it just shocking, that nobody want's to do what they're being told to do. I mean, you can be as woke as you want, if you work at McDonalds, you still have to flip burgers, or your get fired that day.

I'm just seeing a breakdown in even the basic things we do. Like writing orders, passing weight standards, etc, Just the basic stuff!

Do you feel like leadership knows what they are doing though? Seems like a big mess. When there isn't clear vision or direction the result is chaos.

 

[DrMetal]

Do you feel like leadership knows what they are doing though? Seems like a big mess. When there isn't clear vision or direction the result is chaos.

'Leadership' is a bit of a farse, we all know that. When you really care about something getting done, you either hound the person who can do it, or you do it yourself (most often the latter).

In today's military, we often don't care that much, so we may tell someone to do something, but we rarely follow up to if it was done, or done correctly.

And what if it was wasn't done, or done correctly?

That's where discipline has to come in. If you care, true leadership---much like parenting---requires love and discipline. You care about the development of your kids, and you care about the orders you give them. That's why you discipline them (grounded, take away their toys, cars, phones, etc) when they don't do what you're asking. It takes a lot of love (and a lot of care) to discipline.

Unfortunately, we're missing a lot of discipline right now in the mil.

[I'm a joy of a Dad btw, I promise.]

 

[HQCare]

To me it brings up the issue of burnout. It is draining when there is unfair treatment (promotion system is wacked, others are getting out of PCS/deployment and you can't), you don't have enough control over your environment - not getting leadership or material support; workforce is oppositional/non-compliant, and you can't enact the changes you need to make a successful program.

 

[DrMetal]

burnout.

Ahh, this word. The most loathsome of words, the outcry of a generation that fears any hard work and discipline.

There's no such thing as burnout. This is a psychosomatic aberration, much like the diagnosis of fibromyalgia. I heard my golf instructor describe how he's burned out from giving so many lessons (probably to hacks like me).

There is such a thing as having a hard job, and being stressed about it. But that's life.

The truth is, "burnout" really equates to "not liking my job". It's an emotional response to stress.

Do you ever hear of a passionate Nobel-prize winning scientist complain about 'burnout'? Or an accomplished artist call themselves burned out? Hardly. An why not, they can work and stress out just as much as anyone (even more). It's because they like what they're doing.

The rest of us see our work as a chore, hence we 'burnout'.

 

[usma05]

Ahh, this word. The most loathsome of words, the outcry of a generation that fears any hard work and discipline.

There's no such thing as burnout. This is a psychosomatic aberration, much like the diagnosis of fibromyalgia. I heard my golf instructor describe how he's burned out from giving so many lessons (probably to hacks like me).

There is such a thing as having a hard job, and being stressed about it. But that's life.

The truth is, "burnout" really equates to "not liking my job". It's an emotional response to stress.

Do you ever hear of a passionate Nobel-prize winning scientist complain about 'burnout'? Or an accomplished artist call themselves burned out? Hardly. An why not, they can work and stress out just as much as anyone (even more). It's because they like what they're doing.

The rest of us see our work as a chore, hence we 'burnout'.

Is burnout overused? Sure.
Does burnout not exist? Cmon, get real.



There's nothing wrong with finding balance in life. I agree it helps to love your job, but that is a luxury most will never see. Thankfully I love my job but even I rarely approach moments of burnout and have to recalibrate hours/etc.

 

[SirGecko]

Do you ever hear of a passionate Nobel-prize winning scientist complain about 'burnout'? Or an accomplished artist call themselves burned out? Hardly. A why not, they can work and stress out just as much as anyone (even more). It's because they like what they're doing.

Dude I know you love a hot take and are prone to hyperbole but this point is definitely false. I can cite at least one scientist by name off the top of my head without even looking it up, Richard Feynman. The fact that someone likes their work doesn’t mean that doing it all the time (or even most of the time!) won’t make it overwhelming from time to time. Heck I love being a dad and will still get hella burnt out on it if I don’t get a little variety in my day.

 

[pgg]

Ahh, this word. The most loathsome of words, the outcry of a generation that fears any hard work and discipline.

There's no such thing as burnout. This is a psychosomatic aberration, much like the diagnosis of fibromyalgia. I heard my golf instructor describe how he's burned out from giving so many lessons (probably to hacks like me).

There is such a thing as having a hard job, and being stressed about it. But that's life.

The truth is, "burnout" really equates to "not liking my job". It's an emotional response to stress.

Do you ever hear of a passionate Nobel-prize winning scientist complain about 'burnout'? Or an accomplished artist call themselves burned out? Hardly. An why not, they can work and stress out just as much as anyone (even more). It's because they like what they're doing.

The rest of us see our work as a chore, hence we 'burnout'.

Call it what you want.

In the context of milmed, I like the phrase "moral injury" but whatever you want to call it, it's a thing.

 

[DrMetal]

Is burnout overused? Sure.
Does burnout not exist? Cmon, get real.



There's nothing wrong with finding balance in life. I agree it helps to love your job, but that is a luxury most will never see. Thankfully I love my job but even I rarely approach moments of burnout and have to recalibrate hours/etc.

That's normal. You work hard, maybe a little too hard, re-calibrate, drink some whiskey. Move on to the next day. It's a story as old as time. Now if we want to label it, call it something, 'burnout', fine. Note, how come this word wasn't in our vocabulary or consciousness say pre-2000? Is it truly a new phenomena, something only afflicting current generations in the 21st Century workforce? Hardly.

We're just more reactive to all of it, more emotional and sensitive (not necessarily a bad thing, but recognize it). We wanna label it and martyr ourselves over it.

, Richard Feynman.

Feynman never had a bad thing to say about physics, preach QED until on his deathbed.

Call it what you want.

In the context of milmed, I like the phrase "moral injury"

ZDogg (or whoever he was quoting in that video) probably did describe it more accurately. It can all be solved with a 'wellness retreat'.

 

[Just Call Me Doc]

That's normal. You work hard, maybe a little too hard, re-calibrate, drink some whiskey. Move on to the next day. It's a story as old as time. Now if we want to label it, call it something, 'burnout', fine. Note, how come this word wasn't in our vocabulary or consciousness say pre-2000? Is it truly a new phenomena, something only afflicting current generations in the 21st Century workforce? Hardly.

We're just more reactive to all of it, more emotional and sensitive (not necessarily a bad thing, but recognize it). We wanna label it and martyr ourselves over it.



Feynman never had a bad thing to say about physics, preach QED until on his deathbed.



ZDogg (or whoever he was quoting in that video) probably did describe it more accurately. It can all be solved with a 'wellness retreat'.

The term "burnout" tends to be used liberally but I would say burnout is not that you hate the job itself but the systemic and/or cultural environment that is involved with the job. They burnout is likely worse if you LOVE the field (such as Feynman), as you feel like you have no choice but to continually butt your head against the wall as you fight against a broken system.

Burnout is not a new phenomenon but neither are many of the psychological disorders that we now recognize, such as PTSD. Just because we labeled something in the past as "normal" and acceptable doesn't mean that it should continued to be labeled as such. The problem has been that many people want to accuse those with these problems as just "reactive" and wanting to "martyr" themselves and so discount it. This was true of PTSD in the military for centuries. Everyone was supposed to suck it up and be a man. And you say that you work hard, re-calibrate, and drink some whiskey. But what happens if the things that need to be recalibrated are outside your control and you end up drinking lots of whiskey every night? That was the "norm" in past generations and now those people are dealing with alcoholism and cirrhosis. Or those with PTSD that tried to deal with it themselves and ended up putting a gun to their head like a few of my friends.

Understand, a decade or so ago I likely had the same opinion as you and would say these snowflakes need to suck it up and get over themselves. But after pushing myself for so many years in order to achieve my goals, I now find myself on the other side of the fence. And I am well-versed in techniques such as mindfulness, deep breathing exercises, and yoga but found out the hard way if you keep going 100MPH uphill, all the wellness retreats in the world won't solve the problem. It becomes a chronic psychological disorder. I now understand that it's important to recognize it and take steps to manage it BEFORE it becomes a disorder so that you can continue to do what you love doing. I wish I knew that before.

I also recognize that there is a wide spectrum of tolerance to stress and some of it seems silly to others. I remember chuckling at people who claimed PTSD from rocket attacks that hit on the other side of their base while I was dodging bullets hitting all around me. But I now see that people have different tolerances based on their character and experiences and can have genuine problems from exposure to stimuli that may seem tame to me or you. Of course there are some that seek attention, sympathy, or financial gain by dramatizing their symptoms but that doesn't ally to everyone (or I'd say even most of them).

 

[HighPriest]

Yeah I will echo most of the responses. Burnout is real. Burnout is overused. Burnout isn’t just being tired and stressed, because I’ve been both and they’re not the same. It’s like calling MDD “being sad.”
But you don’t know what it really is until you experience it.

I do agree that LOTS of people use the word burnout to describe their general disdain for work, and that again is like saying you’re depressed when really you’re just tired and bored.

Or like how ehlers danlos syndrome is now something everyone has because they heard about it on tik tok. Doesn’t make it not a real thing, it’s just bull$#!t in a lot of cases.

 

[DrMetal]

such as PTSD.

real PTSD, real MDD, real GAD. Yes, we diagnose it and treat it.

Problem is, we're flooding our Mental Health community with a bunch of nothing burgers, not any real mental health pathology. Yeah, we could use a little 'suck it up' and resiliency culture.

But we're not going to do it, we're too scared.

It's fine. Hope we don't have to fight any real wars any time soon. It's 2024, and the Taliban is in charge in Afghanistan.

 

[HighPriest]

real PTSD, real MDD, real GAD. Yes, we diagnose it and treat it.

Problem is, we're flooding our Mental Health community with a bunch of nothing burgers, not any real mental health pathology. Yeah, we could use a little 'suck it up' and resiliency culture.

But we're not going to do it, we're too scared.

It's fine. Hope we don't have to fight any real wars any time soon. It's 2024, and the Taliban is in charge in Afghanistan.

People definitely, unquestionably, demonstrably use these things as an excuse not to get their $#!t together - usually when they don’t actually have the diagnosis, they just need an excuse to do whatever the he77 they want. Everyone wants to feel special and also have a reason to not have to put in effort, and a good ‘op medical diagnosis you heard about on social media is a great way to get both. Plus we live in a culture where you’re not allowed to question any of it.

That doesn’t make the diagnoses less real, it just means that for every 10 people you meet who says they have it, 8 are full of $#!t.

In my experience:
One of the ways to tell someone is actually burned out, however, is that they don’t necessarily want to stop working. In fact they tend to continue working quite hard in my experience. Until they break. But they’re missing things and they’re miserable and theyre irritable and sometimes violent and they’re hoping that things will just get better in a week. And it’s spilling over at home. And a lot of the time they’re not aware how obvious it is. If they’re complaining about how burned out they are, they’re probably just bored.

 

[DrMetal]

Sailors Who Fail 2 Consecutive Fitness Tests Will No Longer Face the End of Their Career, Navy Says

The Navy will now allow career-ending actions to come at the discretion of a sailor's commanding officer instead of a fleet-wide mandate, the service said.

www.military.com

So why bother?! Lets just get rid of our physical fitness standards and requirements. If we're not going to enforce the rules, no sense in having them.

 

[HighPriest]

I think they should make them get as far as possible. As a requirement.