Complex Cases - what mid-levels are not trained for

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Leo Aquarius

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People think that if you learn about psych meds you can be a psychiatrist. This minimizes the 8 years of medical training we have invested in order to medically manage challenging patients every day. So to prove the point I'm opening up the discussion to complex cases we see, things that nobody in their right mind would have a nurse, assistant, or psychologist manage.
 
I've been waiting for this for awhile and I think it would be really educational for those of us who are considering the field. Its one of those things as a medstudent where everything is so new to us that its impossible to know "Would someone with less training have made the same diagnosis/treatment plan/etc as our attending/resident?"
 
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People think that if you learn about psych meds you can be a psychiatrist. This minimizes the 8 years of medical training we have invested in order to medically manage challenging patients every day. So to prove the point I'm opening up the discussion to complex cases we see, things that nobody in their right mind would have a nurse, assistant, or psychologist manage.

a couple weeks ago I was inpatient weekend moonlighting at a fairly large community hospital....one of the patients on the unit developed SOB, fever, chest pain. I consulted the hospitalist group, and an np in the group came by to do the workup and make recs(they ended up accepting the patient as transfer)......
 
a couple weeks ago I was inpatient weekend moonlighting at a fairly large community hospital....one of the patients on the unit developed SOB, fever, chest pain. I consulted the hospitalist group, and an np in the group came by to do the workup and make recs(they ended up accepting the patient as transfer)......

Completely unrelated to the OP question. A complex case in psych is not a depressed guy who needs treatment from another service.
 
I think it's a stupid question as there is no line you draw in the sand to differentiate easy/tough questions.

An NP/PA operates at the MS2-3 level at graduation assuming the NP/PA curriculum would be considered equal to med school. This is why these degrees were originally meant to operate under physician supervision forever.

An NP/PA working under a psychiatrist that teaches well may operate at the level of many psychiatrists 7+ years down the road. This also assumes the NP/PA catches up by reading extensively.

The answer to the OP's question is too individualized.

I've worked with family medicine NP's in the field for 10+ years that questioned my use of Bactrim in a UTI. She never heard of such nonsense. I questioned her ability to treat anything.

A PA I've worked with who now works with a dermatologist reads extensively and is quite impressive. If her choice had been psychiatry, I would have probably asked her to join me in practice.

I've seen mid-levels not know when to instruct patients to have lithium levels drawn for accuracy, prescribe Abilify first-line for depression, and increase Lamictal at warp speeds. In my opinion, these mid-levels shouldn't treat any psych condition at all.

Others are quite excellent and are able to translate their continued studying quite nicely.

What complex cases can't a mid-level handle? Individually - somewhere between nothing and everything.
 
What complex cases can't a mid-level handle? Individually - somewhere between nothing and everything.

interestingly, the same can be said about psychiatrists(that there is a bunch of variance....)
 
Anytime vistaril plays possum when called out for his self-hating, masochistic views of his profession, I think this thread is a worthy link. He doesn't say much here, but a close read says it all.
 
I've worked with family medicine NP's in the field for 10+ years that questioned my use of Bactrim in a UTI. She never heard of such nonsense. I questioned her ability to treat anything.

Did she actually go to school. I'm in psych and I know that.


I've seen mid-levels not know when to instruct patients to have lithium levels drawn for accuracy, prescribe Abilify first-line for depression, and increase Lamictal at warp speeds. In my opinion, these mid-levels shouldn't treat any psych condition at all.

Li level done, after initiation, between 5-7 days in the am 12 hrs after dose and before next am dose. After that it depends on pt's condition and whether or not you start or dc any meds that might interact with Li. I don't like Abilify that much but it's indicated first line for schizophrenia. Neurologist seem to start Lamictal at higher doses but I can't remember what they were as I'm no longer in the hospital. However, when I was on a psych unit we increased Lamictal every 3 days. In output clinic did the usual step-wise protocol. Did I pass?
 
To get to the original question (medically complicated psychiatric cases), here are two with identifying info taken out:

Middle aged non-English speaking male admitted to an academic medical center for urinary retention of unknown origin. The team decides to keep him overnight. In the evening he becomes agitated and confused with speech becoming largely incomprehensible to the translator. The patient had a history of alcohol withdrawal in the past with unclear substance use history prior to arrival. Team starts ativan plus haldol for agitation. By around 1 AM the patient is restrained and has received high doses of both; an ICU transfer is arranged given his autonomic lability and high nursing requirements / ativan requirements. Psychiatry is consulted.

On initial eval the patient is hypertensive, tachycardic, mildly tremulous and diaphoretic. Exam shows no cogwheeling or dystonia. He is afebrile; medical workup including basic labs and CXR shows no obvious source for delirium. Other studies per ICU team pending. The overnight resident laid out a benzodiazepine regimen for presumed alcohol withdrawal and coordinated with the team on further medical workup.

Day two consists of further ativan, haldol, and agitation. On the night of day two the patient becomes progressively more agitated. The team gives high doses of haldol. The next morning the patient is febrile to around 102; no infectious source is yet evident. On exam that morning he is disoriented, speech near incomprehensible, nonrigid, no evidence of extrapyramidal reactions. Later in the morning, however, his temperature continues to climb to a max of around 105 rectal. Per team he also becomes more rigid; autonomic instability persists. We are stat paged to bedside for recs regarding possible NMS. Recommended holding dantrolene plus supportive care with ongoing workup (by our exam less convinced about NMS); over the day the patient defervesced. We gave recs for continued ativan dosing in the setting of intubation in the ICU. Next day the patient self-extubated and appeared somewhat more oriented. Over the subsequent days an ativan taper was arranged and the patient became progressively more oriented; patient revealed drinking approx 15 drinks per day. Engaged the patient in motivational interviewing and arranged for SW consult for consideration of placement in programs; the patient declined believing his alcohol use was not a problem. The patient was discharged approx one week after presentation.

In this case we had to know alcohol withdrawal well, perform careful neuro exams (which were relevant), bring experience with NMS to bear, understand toxidromes (long considerations of what else could have caused the urinary retention on presentation), and work actively with the team; they expected real input on the patient's AMS and would not be content with us standing on the sidelines.
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Next case I will keep a bit shorter. A non-English speaking woman in her early 50s with an approximately one year subacute decline with poor self-care and psychotic symptoms. Her decline had started wtih occasional lapses in memory and odd behaviors and before long progressed to bizzare hallucinations, both auditory and visual, which resulted in the patient harming a family member. At the same time the patient (previously very concerned about appearance) began to neglect her self care with progressively more bizzare behavior and forgetfulness including leaving gas stoves on in the home. She was evaluated by neurologists and psychiatrists several times including some inpatient stays and was a poor treatment responder with a continuing downward march; given her apathy, depressive symptoms, near absent self-care, and gross psychosis she was ultimately transfered from an outside hospital to our psychiatric inpatient unit for consideration of ECT.

On arrival it was apparent that she was cogwheeling, highly parkinsonian, with fluctuating consciousness and inability to perform even basic activities of daily living such as getting up to stool on the toilet. She was on a regimen including antipsychotics and, per previous reports, only seemed to worsen with them. Based on her neurological and cognitive exam (despite her age) we suspected a dementia had been missed. Despite several prior neurological exams (and pushback from the consult resident that this was, in all likelihood, psychiatric given her negative workups in the past and young age) neurology was brought on board, ultimately confirming a diagnosis of corticobasal degeneration. We continued a decrease in her medication regimen with the goal of maximizing quality of life. The family was very grateful to finally have a sense of what was happening. She was ultimately transfered to long term care and over the coming months passed away of complications relating to her end-stage dementia; over this time the correct diagnosis saved her much unnecessary medication and potentially harmful treatment and provided the family a great deal of peace of mind.


I am typing up these cases not to suggest that a non-physician could not have handled them (although medical skills seemed essential in both cases) but to point out that even as an intern I have seen both of these cases and many more like them. If, like vistaril, the most medically complicated decision you have ever made in four years of psychiatric practice is consulting medicine for a cough and fever you have in all likelihood missed significant medical comorbidities (although I believe he must have seen more medically complicated things and, as is his MO, chooses to omit them in order to bash the field).
 
interestingly, the same can be said about psychiatrists(that there is a bunch of variance....)

I disagree. Sure, some are better than others, but the knowledge range is much higher. An extra 5+ years of training will do that.

Almost anyone can spend the time to learn anything, but you actually have to put in the time. Some NP courses online require minimum work that can result in a poor knowledge base. Ive talked to some doing these courses, and they admit that it requires minimum work. They admit to continually doing extra courses to slowly increase pay. This is not just the NP but multiple other designations. Med school/residency prevents those from moving forward without acquiring vast amounts of knowledge. Some psychiatrists move too fast with patients to put their knowledge to work or do things for the money. No field is exempt from that. The vast amount of requirements to finish as a psychiatrist does promote a strong base.

I prefer PA's to NP's because their training is more uniform. While they don't graduate near psychiatrist levels, they do have a good basis of knowledge to help them move forward for the most part. I've really been impressed with some of them. The curriculum is well structured and incorporates many clinical rotations with physicians.

The NP degree is not well regulated. Some programs are MUCH better than others. Without knowing the NP very well or the school, I wouldn't even interview them because of how poorly nursing boards are at making sure there is a quality baseline. The nursing politics is really to blame for that. The nursing powers have done a great job at broadening scope, but they have done this at the expense of quality in my opinion. There are great NP's, but there are too many that just go through the motion because access is relatively easy.

Don't even let me start with prescribing psychologists. Why can't paralegals take a month long course and practice law?

With the difference in quality of education, different mid levels can handle much more complex cases. No one can control for lazy or $-bent prescribers, but we can control for quality of education.
 
I prefer PA's to NP's because their training is more uniform. .

but PA's(at least the ones Ive seen) don't have special programs(within school...not talking extra training) that make them a psych PA. NP's do. Psych np's are not capable/qualified of working as primary care np's, just as we aren't capable of working as primary care physicians.

That's why I prefer psych nps....their whole np clinical program was tailored around psych. Just like our whole(or 90% of it) residency program is.

If I ever do administration for a managed care company or whatever, you can bet that basically all my hires are going to be psych nps. I may have a psych or two in a supervisory role, but np's at 90k or so a pop is what I'm going to go with.
 
but PA's(at least the ones Ive seen) don't have special programs(within school...not talking extra training) that make them a psych PA. NP's do. Psych np's are not capable/qualified of working as primary care np's, just as we aren't capable of working as primary care physicians.

That's why I prefer psych nps....their whole np clinical program was tailored around psych. Just like our whole(or 90% of it) residency program is.

If I ever do administration for a managed care company or whatever, you can bet that basically all my hires are going to be psych nps. I may have a psych or two in a supervisory role, but np's at 90k or so a pop is what I'm going to go with.

PA programs in general may be more consistent but the military PAs get a 3 week observational experience in psych. That's just not right and results in them sending over anyone who needs meds for insomnia or depression. I think I've had one who has start someone on an antidepressant before referring to me.

Damn Vistaril I'm not taking a huge pay cut!
 
PA programs in general may be more consistent but the military PAs get a 3 week observational experience in psych. That's just not right and results in them sending over anyone who needs meds for insomnia or depression. I think I've had one who has start someone on an antidepressant before referring to me.

Damn Vistaril I'm not taking a huge pay cut!

what do you make now and who pays you?
 
PA programs in general may be more consistent but the military PAs get a 3 week observational experience in psych. That's just not right and results in them sending over anyone who needs meds for insomnia or depression. I think I've had one who has start someone on an antidepressant before referring to me.

Damn Vistaril I'm not taking a huge pay cut!

I'll also add that I'd probably hire you(or want to work with you) over 1/3 to maybe half the psychs out there, but the big question is: how fast are you? How many patients can you see in an hour? 2? 3? 5?

Keep in mind that an np who is doing just as good as a psych but is only seeing 60% of the patients is only making 1/2 as much money(after the 85% thing).....
 
I'll also add that I'd probably hire you(or want to work with you) over 1/3 to maybe half the psychs out there, but the big question is: how fast are you? How many patients can you see in an hour? 2? 3? 5?

Keep in mind that an np who is doing just as good as a psych but is only seeing 60% of the patients is only making 1/2 as much money(after the 85% thing).....

I'm getting close to 130K. I'm a military contractor. Normally I have 30 minutes for med management/therapy and 1 hr for initial evals. However, over the next few months I'm doing walk-ins in the am and my regular schedule in the afternoon.
 
I'm getting close to 130K. I'm a military contractor. Normally I have 30 minutes for med management/therapy and 1 hr for initial evals. However, over the next few months I'm doing walk-ins in the am and my regular schedule in the afternoon.

nice....I look for that trend(it's already happening at the VA) to continue in the future. I know of outpt civilian psychs who are contracting out with the military for 185-205k for full time outpt work...why not save 75k or so and go with a psych np to do the same job?
 
I'm getting close to 130K. I'm a military contractor. Normally I have 30 minutes for med management/therapy and 1 hr for initial evals. However, over the next few months I'm doing walk-ins in the am and my regular schedule in the afternoon.

dang zenman. When I graduate I'm going to have to PM you for some advice!
 
dang zenman. When I graduate I'm going to have to PM you for some advice!

thats not that uncommon....in many areas cmhcs are hiring psych np's at 115-120 or so and offering psychs 165-170 or so. And based on the 85% billings, they still come out a little ahead if their psych np can work as fast(not a given)...

that's why psych nps are such a huge threat to our salaries. They have a limited impact right now because there just arent that many, but I see them exploding over the next decade. And when you have that increase in supply, that's going to drive down their own salaries at the cmhcs, and that's going to result in downward pressure on ours.

Yeah, cmhcs pay 180k or whatever(sometimes more) now for psychs....but thats because it may cost them 125k to hire a decent psych np. But if psych np supply goes way up, no way they pay us 180k+ when they could have them for 80k.....

I once heard a comparison between emergency medicine PAs and ER docs, and how they haven't decreased er doc pay. And it's true....board cert em physicians routineley make 240/hr and more. But thats because an em physician and an ER PA are not seen as filling the same role to anywhere near the same extent as a psych np and we are(at places like cmhcs at least)
 
Do you foresee psych NPs exploding, though? I rechecked the breakdown recently, and psych NPs still only make up 3% of all NPs. It is not a popular specialty. I have experienced a fair share of "oh wow, I could never do that, I can't believe you're going into psych" from physicians and nurses alike.
 
Do you foresee psych NPs exploding, though? I rechecked the breakdown recently, and psych NPs still only make up 3% of all NPs. It is not a popular specialty. I have experienced a fair share of "oh wow, I could never do that, I can't believe you're going into psych" from physicians and nurses alike.
This seems to be one of the best points to be made. Psychiatry isn't a popular medical specialty, and most nurses have even less patience for psychiatric patients than most physicians (entirely unsupported statement--just my impression). Sure, the money is there, but the money will be there for all NP positions, not just psych NP positions. Heck, we haven't even ever had a "should I become a psychologist or a psych NP" thread that I can remember.
 
This seems to be one of the best points to be made. Psychiatry isn't a popular medical specialty, and most nurses have even less patience for psychiatric patients than most physicians (entirely unsupported statement--just my impression). Sure, the money is there, but the money will be there for all NP positionsQUOTE]

I'm not an expert on the market, but my understanding is that psych nps make more money than primary care(or OBgyn) nps, who often make about 75k....after all zenman said he makes 130. I don't think finding people to enter these psych np programs in the future is going to be that difficult. The big thing is creating more spots, more programs, more training sites(or getting in training sites). And I think that will only increase as hospitals and govt organizations have more and more of an incentive to cut costs.
 
Do you foresee psych NPs exploding, though? I rechecked the breakdown recently, and psych NPs still only make up 3% of all NPs. It is not a popular specialty. I have experienced a fair share of "oh wow, I could never do that, I can't believe you're going into psych" from physicians and nurses alike.

but are psych np programs not being filled? I know the one where I train at has filled(had tons of qualified people) the last few years....
 
but are psych np programs not being filled? I know the one where I train at has filled(had tons of qualified people) the last few years....

You're right. Psych NPs do make more than most other NPs. I don't know if the potential money will make up for the "aversion" that many have to psych, though. It hasn't so far. I will say that when I was looking for schools to apply to, I noticed that some NP programs do not even have a psych specialty. It would be really interesting to see if enrollment is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same for psych... I really don't know. I just know that some people give me funny looks about it. Then again, I think all my CNM classmates are nuts, so...
 
I'm getting close to 130K. I'm a military contractor. Normally I have 30 minutes for med management/therapy and 1 hr for initial evals. However, over the next few months I'm doing walk-ins in the am and my regular schedule in the afternoon.
How many hours do you work to make that, btw?
 
Heck, we haven't even ever had a "should I become a psychologist or a psych NP" thread that I can remember.

If we did, I"m sure the person was swiftly carried off to an inpatient unit somewhere for some promptly needed mental health care.
 
This seems to be one of the best points to be made. Psychiatry isn't a popular medical specialty, and most nurses have even less patience for psychiatric patients than most physicians (entirely unsupported statement--just my impression). Sure, the money is there, but the money will be there for all NP positionsQUOTE]

I'm not an expert on the market, but my understanding is that psych nps make more money than primary care(or OBgyn) nps, who often make about 75k....after all zenman said he makes 130. I don't think finding people to enter these psych np programs in the future is going to be that difficult. The big thing is creating more spots, more programs, more training sites(or getting in training sites). And I think that will only increase as hospitals and govt organizations have more and more of an incentive to cut costs.

But then think longer term. If psych NPs explode, they will be seeing more patients. Statistically they will start being sued exponentially more, so their malpractice will go up and/or no one will agree to supervise them. Add in some inevitable high profile bad outcome cases (same as can happen to MDs), and you will be asking for increased burdensome regulations and lengthier educational demands--which will have the effect of once again decreasing the supply of NPs.

In fact if anything, at some point some poor innocent NP will be blamed for a bad outcome that no one could have anticipated, and then their whole educational setup will be scrutinized. Just like residency work hours became the focus of the "medical error reduction" movement even though they were never really shown to be related.
 
How many hours do you work to make that, btw?

40 hrs and not a minute more (I'm never behind on my charting) unless I'm on call which is about every three months.

Keep in mind there was recently an ad for child psych for 300k.
 
This seems to be one of the best points to be made. Psychiatry isn't a popular medical specialty, and most nurses have even less patience for psychiatric patients than most physicians (entirely unsupported statement--just my impression). Sure, the money is there, but the money will be there for all NP positionsQUOTE]

I'm not an expert on the market, but my understanding is that psych nps make more money than primary care(or OBgyn) nps, who often make about 75k....after all zenman said he makes 130. I don't think finding people to enter these psych np programs in the future is going to be that difficult. The big thing is creating more spots, more programs, more training sites(or getting in training sites). And I think that will only increase as hospitals and govt organizations have more and more of an incentive to cut costs.

All PA's and NP's in my region are pulling over 100k if they look around. Those in academic peds gigs are making less. The money is with CRNA's. Forget NP if you want big money. CRNA's in anesthesia are pulling 150k+. There are even CRNA owned groups hiring anesthesiologists, which is landing them salaries above psychiatrists.
 
All PA's and NP's in my region are pulling over 100k if they look around. Those in academic peds gigs are making less. The money is with CRNA's. Forget NP if you want big money. CRNA's in anesthesia are pulling 150k+. There are even CRNA owned groups hiring anesthesiologists, which is landing them salaries above psychiatrists.

well oh yeah, but I think due to the training requirements, job itself and increased competitiveness to enter most people put crnas off in another section in their mind. Lots of crnas make 200k+...without even much difficulty
 
So, I think I understand from this thread that a few posters here think that Psych NP's are nearly equivalent to Psychiatrists. With that state of mind, I have to wonder why some of those posters have chosen Psychiatry as a career. Getting back to the OP, are there any cases that are too complex for Psych NP's and should be managed by a Psychiatrist?
 
So, I think I understand from this thread that a few posters here think that Psych NP's are nearly equivalent to Psychiatrists. With that state of mind, I have to wonder why some of those posters have chosen Psychiatry as a career. Getting back to the OP, are there any cases that are too complex for Psych NP's and should be managed by a Psychiatrist?

you're missing part of the point. It's debatable just how equivalent psych nps are to psychiatrists. Sometimes pretty equivalent, and sometimes not so equivalent. But let's consider the 'good' psychiatrists who are more skilled than psych nps. Even amongst those, two realities stand out:

1) in many clinical interactions this greater skill/knowledge is not useful
2) in many clinical interactions there just isn't sufficient time for the superior clinical skill/knowledge to come into play
 
you're missing part of the point. It's debatable just how equivalent psych nps are to psychiatrists. Sometimes pretty equivalent, and sometimes not so equivalent. But let's consider the 'good' psychiatrists who are more skilled than psych nps. Even amongst those, two realities stand out:

1) in many clinical interactions this greater skill/knowledge is not useful
2) in many clinical interactions there just isn't sufficient time for the superior clinical skill/knowledge to come into play

I understand what you're saying. In light of this, then, why would anyone (including, presumably, yourself) choose to train as a Psychiatrist? Further, why not just abolish the specialty entirely?
 
I understand what you're saying. In light of this, then, why would anyone (including, presumably, yourself) choose to train as a Psychiatrist? Further, why not just abolish the specialty entirely?

because I'd still rather do this than something in medicine. Money, prestige, autonomy, respect, etc aren't everything.

Why not abolish the specialty? Huh? Where did that question come from? Just because something isn't an ideal field doesn't mean it needs to be abolished.
 
By that reasoning, every medical field could be abolished.

well not quite...some medical fields have 'bread and butter' procedures that rise to levels requiring physician level training....but yeah I see your point.
 
Is this guy for real..

yeah..now im a 100% convinced that vistaril is a trolll...

there's absolutely no doubt...moderator??
 
Is this guy for real..

yeah..now im a 100% convinced that vistaril is a trolll...

there's absolutely no doubt...moderator??

You pop up in lots of threads posting this. You've called him/her a douchebag, said she/he has Asperger's, is a troll, and have yelled out for a moderator like an annoying diner at a restaurant yelling for a server repeatedly. As far as I can tell, most of your posts are about Vistaril, and they manage to say nothing. You could ignore him/her, but you might lose out on something to post about. I find his/her insights valuable and the mindless reactivity toward them tends to worsen my opinion of the other posters in this forum.
 
I find his/her insights valuable and the mindless reactivity toward them tends to worsen my opinion of the other posters in this forum.

I have actually appreciated some of his contributions as well. For instance I remember some advice he gave about limiting psychopharm considering a patient's functionality that resounded well with me, and I sometimes find that he does provide balance rather than just dumping on the field. You have to admit, though, that he gets a little excessive with it at times. For instance, in a thread asking for our most challenging medical decision making he (a fourth year resident who is now graduating) says 'one time I consulted the medicine NP for fever and cough.' What would that be aside from an attempt to bash psychiatry?

Anyhow, this thread has been a total failure in my opinion. I'm the only one who has posted anything resembling patient cases (something actually interesting for students considering the field), it has mostly devolved into MD v NP v other and arguing with vistaril.
 
well not quite...some medical fields have 'bread and butter' procedures that rise to levels requiring physician level training....but yeah I see your point.

There are studies showing that video gamers are able to complete surgeries faster and more efficiently than surgeons given a defined objective. More and more surgeries will be using electronics. Many of these cases could be performed by gamers with even better results. This is not the case however because in the few exceptions where there is a complication you want the surgeon present.

Obviously this isn't a great comparison with an NP as they are better trained than gamers. Still complex cases can occur with once easy patients. Can average NP's adequately handle them? My opinion is no without supervision. I've seen them struggle with basic patients, pregnant patients, immune compromised patients, delirium, etc.

I've seen plenty of internal medicine attendings miss delirium.

My point is that the best care often includes psychiatrists handling psychiatric problems or at least being available to midlevels. There are still important roles for NP's and IM docs.
 
Bartelby said:
Anyhow, this thread has been a total failure in my opinion. I'm the only one who has posted anything resembling patient cases (something actually interesting for students considering the field), it has mostly devolved into MD v NP v other and arguing with vistaril.

My opinion is that all cases can become complex enough to require supervision. I can't post them all. Midlevels were developed to have physician supervision and that model works well. To say they can adequately determine all cases that require assistance is just false. I've seen too many botched cases with midlevels not consulting their faculty adequately over much simpler cases than you mentioned.

In no way am I saying midlevels are not extremely beneficial in the right context. Solo providers are just not the right context.
 
because I'd still rather do this than something in medicine. Money, prestige, autonomy, respect, etc aren't everything.

Why not abolish the specialty? Huh? Where did that question come from? Just because something isn't an ideal field doesn't mean it needs to be abolished.

I attempted to employ hyperbole because you implied that there were very few situations in which Psychiatrists were necessary. It seems that there are few situations in which you think your own skills are required and/or efficacious and/or useful. It was just puzzling to me. I agree that your list of things aren't everything. However, you didn't include any of the other things I've seen you claim that Psychiatry fails/is only moderately useful at (lackluster medications, poor diagnostic criteria, etc). When those things are included, you must have despised medical school in order to select Psychiatry with all of its deficiencies. What do you love (at this point, even like!) about Psychiatry?
 
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By that reasoning, every medical field could be abolished.

Right. I wasn't agreeing with Vistaril. I was trying to understand why he says what he is saying in this thread. Some of his positions seem contradictory. I think Psychiatry is fascinating and am strongly considering it as a future career.
 
45yo M with AIDS, alcohol dependence, liver failure, cognitive d/o nos, depression nos, not taking HAART d/t depression, unwilling to take antidepressants though verbalizes interest in feeling better.

40yo F with depression, acutely suicidal but high functioning and states she wouldn't do something to hurt herself, states that if you hospitalize her she'll end up losing her job and her whole life would really fall apart (and likely attempt suicide then).

There's really too many to list.
 
45yo M with AIDS, alcohol dependence, liver failure, cognitive d/o nos, depression nos, not taking HAART d/t depression, unwilling to take antidepressants though verbalizes interest in feeling better.

40yo F with depression, acutely suicidal but high functioning and states she wouldn't do something to hurt herself, states that if you hospitalize her she'll end up losing her job and her whole life would really fall apart (and likely attempt suicide then).

There's really too many to list.

Thank you for finally providing some cases that illustrate why Psychiatry residencies are useful, and how Psychiatric training is necessary beyond the skills that a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner can provide (though their training is absolutely useful).
 
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