Complexity of Onychomycosis

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Untreated nonpainful onychomycosis is

  • a self-limited or minor problem

    Votes: 8 32.0%
  • a stable chronic illness

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • an acute illness or injury

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • a chronic illness with progression

    Votes: 3 12.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Steveington

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I wanted to do a poll asking your thoughts. This is prompted on the 2021 E/M coding guidelines.
If you have a patient who presents with non-painful onychomycosis which they've had "for years" but they haven't treated it with anything, how would you classify it?

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Minimal problem: A problem that may not require the presence of the physician or other qualified health care professional, but the service is provided under the physician’s or other qualified health care professional’s supervision (see 99211).

Self-limited or minor problem: A problem that runs a definite and prescribed course, is transient in nature, and is not likely to permanently alter health status.

Stable, chronic illness: A problem with an expected duration of at least one year or until the death of the patient. For the purpose of defining chronicity, conditions are treated as chronic whether or not stage or severity changes (eg, uncontrolled diabetes and controlled diabetes are a single chronic condition). “Stable” for the purposes of categorizing MDM is defined by the specific treatment goals for an individual patient. A patient who is not at his or her treatment goal is not stable, even if the condition has not changed and there is no short-term threat to life or function. For example, in a patient with persistently poorly controlled blood pressure for whom better control is a goal is not stable, even if the pressures are not changing and the patient is asymptomatic, the risk of morbidity without treatment is significant. Examples may include well-controlled hypertension, noninsulin- dependent diabetes, cataract, or benign prostatic hyperplasia.

Acute, uncomplicated illness or injury: A recent or new short-term problem with low risk of morbidity for which treatment is considered. There is little to no risk of mortality with treatment, and full recovery without functional impairment is expected. A problem that is normally self-limited or minor but is not resolving consistent with a definite and prescribed course is an acute, uncomplicated illness. Examples may include cystitis, allergic rhinitis, or a simple sprain.

Chronic illness with exacerbation, progression, or side effects of treatment: A chronic illness that is acutely worsening, poorly controlled, or progressing with an intent to control progression and requiring additional supportive care or requiring attention to treatment for side effects but that does not require consideration of hospital level of care.

Undiagnosed new problem with uncertain prognosis: A problem in the differential diagnosis that represents a condition likely to result in a high risk of morbidity without treatment. An example may be a lump in the breast. Acute illness with systemic symptoms: An illness that causes systemic symptoms and has a high risk of morbidity without treatment. For systemic general symptoms, such as fever, body aches, or fatigue in a minor illness that may be treated to alleviate symptoms, shorten the course of illness, or to prevent complications, see the definitions for self-limited or minor problem or acute, uncomplicated illness or injury. Systemic symptoms may not be general but may be single system. Examples may include pyelonephritis, pneumonitis, or colitis.

Acute, complicated injury: An injury which requires treatment that includes evaluation of body systems that are not directly part of the injured organ, the injury is extensive, or the treatment options are multiple and/or associated with risk of morbidity. An example may be a head injury with brief loss of consciousness.

Chronic illness with severe exacerbation, progression, or side effects of treatment: The severe exacerbation or progression of a chronic illness or severe side effects of treatment that have significant risk of morbidity and may require hospital level of care.

Acute or chronic illness or injury that poses a threat to life or bodily function: An acute illness with systemic symptoms, an acute complicated injury, or a chronic illness or injury with exacerbation and/or progression or side effects of treatment, that poses a threat to life or bodily function in the near term without treatment. Examples may include acute myocardial infarction, pulmonary embolus, severe respiratory distress, progressive severe rheumatoid arthritis, psychiatric illness with potential threat to self or others, peritonitis, acute renal failure, or an abrupt change in neurologic status.
 
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You need 2 out of 3 elements of MDM or bill for time with the new 2021 rules.
MDM is: 1) Number and complexity 2) Amount and/or complexity of data review 3) Risk of complications and/or morbidity of patient management


so.... pick 2 and 3 above. Order LFTs or did a PCP order it at their last round and you got a copy of it? Did they see another DPM and had no success and you review their office note? Take a distal nail trimming biopsy/culture? Moderate risk is defined by Rx drug management and if you are doing 90 days PO terbinafine (and especially if they have other meds you have to reconcile with interaction) then some DPMs are now shooting for 99204. Is it right? That's for you to decide/defend.
 
Life threatening. Level 5 ez
 
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Has anyone actually successfully treated onycho with any regularity? I couldn’t name a single patient who’s nail fungus I’ve cured. Or even significantly improved. Probably because I don’t try and/or give up easily and tell them to find another podiatrist who’s better at it than I am...
 
I tell the patients that therapy probably will not work. I liver test once. I write them three to four pulses of terbinafine. One week on three weeks off. I tell them if they think it is doing anything at all that I will give them a refill and they don't need to see me for the refill. They can grind the nail with an emory board. They can put urea or "podiatry shill money cream" on the nails. It would be my pleasure to perform a matrixectomy for them when this fails.

In general this means that I only have to see a patient for nail fungus that is being medically treated every four to eight months and minimizes those awkward six week visits where you both agree that nothing is happening. It also cuts down on patients coming by to get lab forms and monthly refills. I'm not a PCP. I don't want to manage your medications.

The other day my partner saw a patient of mine when I was out of the office. The patient had an obvious hammer toe with obvious mechanical nail change and he still sent a piece of it to Bako. Vomit.
 
Sending a nail clipping to confirm a fungal nail infection is podiatric brain surgery. Just write Terbinafine... if it fails then at least you can say you gave it your all. That and the patient is happy they don’t have to pay a stupid lab fee for the nail clippings.

Sometimes the academics overshadows plain old common sense.
 
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Sending a nail clipping to confirm a fungal nail infection is podiatric brain surgery. Just write Terbinafine... if it fails then at least you can say you gave it your all. That and the patient is happy they don’t have to pay a stupid lab fee for the nail clippings.

Sometimes the academics overshadows plain old common sense.
I treat from a clinical diagnosis myself, but I’m not in private practice looking to make $$$ with creams, lotions and potions. I think I recall a recent PM News debate about sending nail clippings vs not. Pretty sure one side was accusing people of malpractice for treating without sending nail clippings.

This one scenario basically sums up my experience with podiatry as a whole applied across the board. It doesn’t matter what you are doing or how you do it - some pod out there is going to say you’re completely wrong and maybe committing malpractice. I’ve seen it over toe nail clippings, the use of silver nitrate, if a screw is providing compression or not (even though stabilization and buttressing would be just fine), wound cultures, etc.
 
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Hate myself a bit for responding because it's not a topic that interests me, but thought I would add my experience.

I only use terbinafine. 1 a day for 12 weeks. Need to have labs within the past 3 months before starting therapy, or new baseline labs. Give them the 1st 4 weeks and they are to repeat labs and we'll call when we see them and fill the final 8 weeks at that time. I explain that it's a 12 week course and and 6 to 9 month process until they see what the final result will be (time for nail to grow out). No point in re dosing within a year.

I generally don't see these patients back after their initial visit.

I quote people the studies that suggest 70% efficacy. Explain more severe disease, less likely to greatly improve nail appearance even if fungus is "cured", and feel the one's that I have actually seen back have been in line with this.

If the nails are crumbly, obviously fungal I'll just start the Lamisil. If they're just kind of dystrophic/mechanical cause, but the patient is there seeking treatment for fungal nails I will occasionally take a sample before doing anything. If it comes back fungal, cool, start the above sequence over the phone. If not fungal, you can live with it or have it removed. If fungal and terbinafine didn't work, you can live with it or have it removed.

In all, I probably write 2 or 3 terbinafine scripts a month. Not my favorite, but pretty straight forward visit and often leads to matrixectomies down the line.

Just this week i saw a guy I put on terbinafine for all 10 nails in 2018. 9 of 10 cleared up. I removed the 10th this week. Easy enough.
 
mild it will probably work
moderate it probably won't work
severe I won't prescribe it
collect underpants
never check labs - ask them if they have liver problems
if they drink more than 2 drinks I tell them to skip the med the next day and let your liver break down the etoh
take a picture today, in 30 days, 60 90 etc
don't expect results for months - EXPLAIN THAT THE NEW NAIL HAS TO GROW IN IT DOESNT GET RID OF STUFF IN THE CURRENT NAIL
figure out a way to bill level 4 - collect profit

I tell 5x more patients it won't work and don't put them on it than I actually do.

Lasers are for TFPs and hacks I don't care what you are using it for.

Fortunately I practice in a state where nobody cares what their toenails look like. Nobody wears sandals unless you want a horse or cow to step on it and crush it.
 
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Sending a nail clipping to confirm a fungal nail infection is podiatric brain surgery. Just write Terbinafine... if it fails then at least you can say you gave it your all. That and the patient is happy they don’t have to pay a stupid lab fee for the nail clippings.

Sometimes the academics overshadows plain old common sense.
You must hate money
 
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Minimal problem: A problem that may not require the presence of the physician or other qualified health care professional, but the service is provided under the physician’s or other qualified health care professional’s supervision (see 99211).

Self-limited or minor problem: A problem that runs a definite and prescribed course, is transient in nature, and is not likely to permanently alter health status.

Stable, chronic illness: A problem with an expected duration of at least one year or until the death of the patient. For the purpose of defining chronicity, conditions are treated as chronic whether or not stage or severity changes (eg, uncontrolled diabetes and controlled diabetes are a single chronic condition). “Stable” for the purposes of categorizing MDM is defined by the specific treatment goals for an individual patient. A patient who is not at his or her treatment goal is not stable, even if the condition has not changed and there is no short-term threat to life or function. For example, in a patient with persistently poorly controlled blood pressure for whom better control is a goal is not stable, even if the pressures are not changing and the patient is asymptomatic, the risk of morbidity without treatment is significant. Examples may include well-controlled hypertension, noninsulin- dependent diabetes, cataract, or benign prostatic hyperplasia.

Acute, uncomplicated illness or injury: A recent or new short-term problem with low risk of morbidity for which treatment is considered. There is little to no risk of mortality with treatment, and full recovery without functional impairment is expected. A problem that is normally self-limited or minor but is not resolving consistent with a definite and prescribed course is an acute, uncomplicated illness. Examples may include cystitis, allergic rhinitis, or a simple sprain.

Chronic illness with exacerbation, progression, or side effects of treatment: A chronic illness that is acutely worsening, poorly controlled, or progressing with an intent to control progression and requiring additional supportive care or requiring attention to treatment for side effects but that does not require consideration of hospital level of care.

Undiagnosed new problem with uncertain prognosis: A problem in the differential diagnosis that represents a condition likely to result in a high risk of morbidity without treatment. An example may be a lump in the breast. Acute illness with systemic symptoms: An illness that causes systemic symptoms and has a high risk of morbidity without treatment. For systemic general symptoms, such as fever, body aches, or fatigue in a minor illness that may be treated to alleviate symptoms, shorten the course of illness, or to prevent complications, see the definitions for self-limited or minor problem or acute, uncomplicated illness or injury. Systemic symptoms may not be general but may be single system. Examples may include pyelonephritis, pneumonitis, or colitis.

Acute, complicated injury: An injury which requires treatment that includes evaluation of body systems that are not directly part of the injured organ, the injury is extensive, or the treatment options are multiple and/or associated with risk of morbidity. An example may be a head injury with brief loss of consciousness.

Chronic illness with severe exacerbation, progression, or side effects of treatment: The severe exacerbation or progression of a chronic illness or severe side effects of treatment that have significant risk of morbidity and may require hospital level of care.

Acute or chronic illness or injury that poses a threat to life or bodily function: An acute illness with systemic symptoms, an acute complicated injury, or a chronic illness or injury with exacerbation and/or progression or side effects of treatment, that poses a threat to life or bodily function in the near term without treatment. Examples may include acute myocardial infarction, pulmonary embolus, severe respiratory distress, progressive severe rheumatoid arthritis, psychiatric illness with potential threat to self or others, peritonitis, acute renal failure, or an abrupt change in neurologic status.
It's been interesting looking at the polls on this one. Based on the same question and information we're answering the question differently on the complexity. (Again, the original question: If you have a patient who presents with non-painful onychomycosis which they've had "for years" but they haven't treated it with anything, how would you classify it?)
Here are some of my thoughts
Currently 5/17 voted for a self-limited or minor problem. Based on the definition, it is "not likely to permanently alter health status", but it doesn't meet the rest of the definition with being "transient in nature", nor does it run a definite and prescribed course. (I think the keyword is "and" with this definition, instead of "or" in the other definitions)

Currently 10/17 voted for a Stable, chronic illness. It has been present for at least a year, so we can classify it as chronic. The question is if it is stable. Based off of the AMA 2021 guidelines, it states:
"“Stable” for the purposes of categorizing MDM is defined by the specific treatment goals for an individual patient. A patient who is not at his or her treatment goal is not stable, even if the condition has not changed and there is no short-term threat to life or function."
So if the treatment goal is a fungal free nail, I'm I reading that right, that it would not be a stable chronic illness?

Chronic illness with exacerbation, progression or side effects of treatment: It has three points
-acutely worsening - likely not
-poorly controlled - ??? Maybe? (see my question below)
-progressing with an intent to control progression and requiring additional supportive care or treatment for side effects - likely not

Is the opposite of "Stable", "poorly controlled"? If so, does that mean that patient's who are not at their treatment goal, poorly controlled?

What are your thoughts?
 
Correct - stable means at their treatment goal. Chronic uncontrolled illness is neuropathy with paresthesias. I certainly have to think if a chronic illness as a systemic illness with systemic implications. Good luck explaining nail fungus as a chronic illness to the auditors. Don't get me wrong, I am billing more than 50 percent new patient level 4s, but nail fungus is not a chronic illness.
 
Correct - stable means at their treatment goal. Chronic uncontrolled illness is neuropathy with paresthesias. I certainly have to think if a chronic illness as a systemic illness with systemic implications. Good luck explaining nail fungus as a chronic illness to the auditors. Don't get me wrong, I am billing more than 50 percent new patient level 4s, but nail fungus is not a chronic illness.

I think we can certainly agree that a systemic illness with systemic implications is a chronic illness (HTN, DM) But another example the AMA used for a chronic illness is cataracts, which I agree is a chronic illness but I also think it's more localized issue then systemic. If someone came in with drop foot, I would feel fine classifying it as chronic as well.

I haven't been to a coding course with the new E/M changes, I've just been reading things online trying to figure it out. It seems like there is a lot of gray area. Strictly reading the AMA guideline changes, a lawyer could argue that untreated onychomycosis is a "problem with an expected duration of at least one year" and is "poorly controlled" being a level 4 on the complexity scale.

Personally I wouldn't feel right coding it that way. It doesn't seem as severe as other chronic uncontrolled issues.

Maybe talking to an auditor would be a good idea.
 
Has anyone actually successfully treated onycho with any regularity? I couldn’t name a single patient who’s nail fungus I’ve cured. Or even significantly improved. Probably because I don’t try and/or give up easily and tell them to find another podiatrist who’s better at it than I am...
I see terbinafine work quite well actually. When I was a student I heard a lot of my attendings say "it just doesnt work" but that hasnt been my experience.

I would say 70ish percent of people actually respond in my practice. Maybe not cured completely but they are happy their nail at least looks better.

I would estimate off the top of my head 40-50% of people with mild/moderate disease the nail completely resolves to a normal appearing nail. Like airbud said patient education on how the medication works is key.

I dont send samples. They always come back negative in my experience. Send terbinafine and they get better. Lab doesnt work well or im not sampling correctly. Regardless I dont do it.

For patients who dont respond (mild/moderate disease) to terbinafine I sent a strong topical steroid and ive seen good results

When that fails I avulse with or without matrixectomy (leave it up to patient).

As much as I dont like diabetic stuff I actually really like the easy 5-10min onychomycosis treatment visit. Super easy. Terbinafine is really not that risky. I dont check half way though. If their liver within 6 months is normal I Rx it without a second thought. If changes to health I recheck. I work for a MSG so most of my patients have a CMP within 6ish months. Easy level 3 visit without a lot of thought process. Patients are happy.
 
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