Conduct Probation...Is it over?

[abandonallships]

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I'm currently a sophomore, and earlier this semester, I was involved in a fight and placed on Conduct Probation by my University. With the fight, I was first shoved over a disagreement, which in retaliation, I shoved back. I was then chokeholded, and I punched the guy in the face to get him off me. I am being refused the right of self-defense and being held accountable for the fight...even though I am telling the truth.. The fight wasn't a big deal, and no one was hurt, and it was reported by him telling on me......How will this affect my medical school chances?

I'm a good student, and I feel like this incident will ruin me, when med schools look at my transcript. I have a 3.8gpa and many volunteer hours/ will begin shadowing soon.

How do/can I address this? Thank you.

 

[phikapdoctor]

Did you use your premed skills to patch him up after?

Was it brought to court? And have you been convicted? If not convicted I would completely disregard it and move on. It won't hurt unless you have a misdemeanor or felony. If you do, then search the threads and you will see some great discussion on how to proceed. Hope this helps, and good luck in your future cycle.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app please excuse punctuation and spelling

 

[LizzyM]

Conduct probation must be reported on your application. You get to tell your side of the story and some schools might have mercy on you given that your side of the story is that he threw the first punch and that you responded in self defense. (Although after being shoved you could have walked-- or run-- away to protect yourself rather than shoving back.)


You might be able to save your chances by getting letters of recommendation from faculty who have seen you in action as a collaborator, team member, leader, etc.

 

[abandonallships]

Thanks for your input Lizzy. I know that I could have walked away after his first shove now, but I didn't know this at the time, and I really believe that I did what any person would naturally do- was to shove back. I'm not a violent person, but I feel like this quick and stupid decision may be frowned on upon medical schools. If I am reporting this on my application, how bad does it look, and will medical schools frown upon this and not offer me interviews (during which I will of course explain what happened).

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, some schools may frown on this and choose not to interview you. And others may see your explanation, accept it, and judge you as they would any other candidate. You might need to apply to more schools to account for those who will toss your application after a review of the institutional action.

Unless it it brought up during the interview, you should not bring it up. Either the school will be conducting a closed file interview meaning that the only things the interviewer knows are those things elicited during the interview or the interviewer has seen the file, knows of this blemish on your record, and chooses to direct questions in another direction. If so, count yourself lucky and don't volunteer anything.

If it does come up, be prepared to admit your mistake and describe how you have changed your response to such provocation.

 

[abandonallships]

Lizzy,

Thank you again for your reply. One last question: What percentage of schools do you think will reject an interview because of this, even though other parts of my application are strong. I am looking to apply mainly to California schools (UC's), and a couple of out-of state schools as well as 1-2 DO schools. Also, will I be provided a section on the application which I can explain in writing my full account of what happened, despite the schools decision?

Thank you again. You are very helpful!

 

[LizzyM]

Lizzy,

Thank you again for your reply. One last question: What percentage of schools do you think will reject an interview because of this, even though other parts of my application are strong. I am looking to apply mainly to California schools (UC's), and a couple of out-of state schools as well as 1-2 DO schools. Also, will I be provided a section on the application which I can explain in writing my full account of what happened, despite the schools decision?

Thank you again. You are very helpful!

When you click the "institutional action" button on the AMCAS application, you will have a space to describe the nature of the institutional action and a limited amount of space to give an account of what happened. (I don't know the exact number of characters but most appear to be about as long as the first paragraph of your original post.

I have no idea what each school will do with this information but given that some schools may set your application aside on the basis of your past behavior, you should have some extra applications "out there" to make up for it. Where I usually say apply to 14 schools, I'd say go up 50% and apply to 21.

 

[image187]

I would abandon the idea that "any natural person" would shove somebody that shoved them first, because it doesn't necessarily demonstrate a high maturity level or that you learned something from what you did and now know why it was wrong. I'm not sure most people would have reacted this way. Legally, if you got charged with assault, you'd have a hard time claiming self defense on something you could have walked away from. Just be willing to recognize that people interviewing you might see it this way and be expecting you to own up to yourself

 

[Bangersandmash]

If I was an ADcom member, I would look down upon you as an applicant because you were not courageous enough to finish him off and make sure he could never shove you again.

 

[Praefectus]

So were you Andre Johnson or Cortland Finnegan?

[YOUTUBE]hM3-v22uvHE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[aspiring20]

I'm currently a sophomore, and earlier this semester, I was involved in a fight and placed on Conduct Probation by my University. With the fight, I was first shoved over a disagreement, which in retaliation, I shoved back. I was then chokeholded, and I punched the guy in the face to get him off me. I am being refused the right of self-defense and being held accountable for the fight...even though I am telling the truth.. The fight wasn't a big deal, and no one was hurt, and it was reported by him telling on me......How will this affect my medical school chances?

I'm a good student, and I feel like this incident will ruin me, when med schools look at my transcript. I have a 3.8gpa and many volunteer hours/ will begin shadowing soon.

How do/can I address this? Thank you.

sorry that you had to go through this. unfortunately, i am afraid that you'll have to disclose this on the AMCAS application regardless of whether or not it shows up on your transcript since a probation definitely counts as institutional action.

i would say something along the lines of :

"during sophomore year, a student shoved me out of a disagreement. instead of walking away, I shoved him back and the situation escalated into a fight. no one was injured, and no police action took place. i made an immature mistake, and I took full responsibility for my actions by accepting the conduct probation. from this incident, i learned (say something about conflict resolution, etc,)"

keep it short and to the point. be sure that you indicate that the fight was started by the other person, but do not make it sound as if you were justified in hitting him back. make sure the facts are correct, and take responsibility for what happened. above all, don't sound like you were a victim!

fyi, i also have an IA. it isn't quite as serious (not saying that your situation is that serious) as what happened here, but i still have to report it on the amcas. i feel that as long as it isn't a serious criminal conviction or something like academic cheating, it really shouldn't matter that much.

perhaps some people on SDN can offer some additional advice

 

[aspiring20]

So were you Andre Johnson or Cortland Finnegan?

[YOUTUBE]hM3-v22uvHE[/YOUTUBE]

let's try to be serious on this thread. the OP's probably going through some rough times after this incident, so let's all keep the conversation productive.

i also received an IA, and i know what the OP is feeling right now.

 

[MedPR]

Thanks for your input Lizzy. I know that I could have walked away after his first shove now, but I didn't know this at the time, and I really believe that I did what any person would naturally do- was to shove back. I'm not a violent person, but I feel like this quick and stupid decision may be frowned on upon medical schools. If I am reporting this on my application, how bad does it look, and will medical schools frown upon this and not offer me interviews (during which I will of course explain what happened).

First, you shouldn't be putting yourself in situations where you provoke someone to shove you. Second, how did you not know walking away was an option?are you a caveman? Third, not everyone would naturally shove back.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[MedPR]

i would say something along the lines of :

"during sophomore year, a student shoved me out of a disagreement. instead of walking away, I shoved him back and the situation escalated into a fight. no one was injured, and no police action took place. i made an immature mistake, and I took full responsibility for my actions by accepting the conduct probation. from this incident, i learned (say something about conflict resolution, etc,)"

I disagree. The way you have it worded makes it obvious that the op had not one, but two opportunities to walk away.


Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[aspiring20]

First, you shouldn't be putting yourself in situations where you provoke someone to shove you. Second, how did you not know walking away was an option?are you a caveman? Third, not everyone would naturally shove back.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

come on, you can't say that when you dont know what happened. people get into arguments all the time, and that person could have first shoved the OP simply because he was overly aggressive and not because of anything OP did.

you are assuming that the person shoved the OP first because the OP provoked him. we simply dont know if that's the case.

let's not judge people unfairly.

 

[aspiring20]

First, you shouldn't be putting yourself in situations where you provoke someone to shove you. Second, how did you not know walking away was an option?are you a caveman? Third, not everyone would naturally shove back.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

that i agree. but once again, we dont know exactly what happened. maybe the other person used extremely insulting language that really angered the OP.

my question to the OP is whether that person got at least the same level of sanction that the OP got.

 

[abandonallships]

that i agree. but once again, we dont know exactly what happened. maybe the other person used extremely insulting language that really angered the OP.

my question to the OP is whether that person got at least the same level of sanction that the OP got.

Thank you for your replies and suggestions.

I think that he got the same sanction that I got, although I don't know. I tried to appeal the case, but I was turned down by the subcommittee [It was like me going against the a cop in court... (the Dean of Housing)]. Obviously, I was already expecting him to win, and he did. The thing that REALLY bugs me is that the written report had two false claims (I swear.) in that I acted aggressive verbally at first and that it was vague in saying that we both threw punches (when it was rather me being choked first...then I threw a punch to get him off of me..). So if I'd have to send that report to medical schools, I couldn't say that it was false, because they obviously wouldn't believe me... The fact was that the Dean of Housing wasn't there himself to see what happened, and he chose to take account of the other guy's story and ignore mine completely.

I presented the case as well as I could. I talked about these two claims being false, but the Housing dean, being as dumb headed as he could by believing the other guy's claim solely, rejected my view. I also talked about that I'd have to list this probation in the AMCAS, and that I really know it was a stupid, immature mistake to shove back, etc. but it was my first time in a situation like this, and that I didn't know how to react in that split-second. But he simply didn't care and gave me a "well it's your own fault" kind of jist..

 

[aspiring20]

Thank you for your replies and suggestions.

I think that he got the same sanction that I got. I tried to appeal the case, but I was turned down by the subcommittee [It was like me going against the a cop... (the Dean of Housing)]. Obviously, I was already expecting him to win, and he did. The thing that REALLY bugs me is that the written report had two false claims (I swear.) in that I acted aggressive verbally at first and that it was vague in saying that we both threw punches (when it was rather me being choked first...then I threw a punch to get him off of me..). So if I'd have to send that report to medical schools, I couldn't say that it was false, because they obviously wouldn't believe me...

I presented the case as well as I could. I talked about these two claims being false, but the Housing dean, being as dumb headed as he could by believing the other guy's claim solely, rejected my view. I also talked about that I'd have to list this probation in the AMCAS, and that I really know it was a stupid, immature mistake to shove back, etc. but it was my first time in a situation like this, and that I didn't know how to react. But he simply didn't care and said "well it's your own fault" kind of jist..

is this report the official documentation maintained by the university that states you violated x policy and hence received y sanction? I also received an IA, and on my report it states the policy i violated and the sanction i received. usually, these reports are rather vague.

and you send "send that report to medical schools". first, you dont have to send in anything to schools; on the amcas, you are given a place to explain the incident in your own words, so during that explanation, you can clearly say what truly happened (and i believe you).

now, some medical schools will read your explanation, accept it, move on, and then interview/accept you. but others might contact your school's dean and ask for its version of what happened. if there is significant discrepancy between your AMCAS explanation and the school's documentation of what happened, then could be some problems.

what i recommend is write up an explanation of what happened and then show that explanation to your dean to ensure that your explanation is consistent with the explanation maintained in your record. the dean at my school is very supportive and he/she verified my explanation saying that it is correct and accurate.

from what you described, it doesnt seem that your housing dean is very supportive/reasonable. is there another dean you can approach to take about how to explain the incident? like a student affairs dean or judicial conduct dean? it doesnt seem likely that a housing dean would be in charge of disciplinary proceedings.

at my school, an assistant dean handled my violation and gave me the sanction, but all my record confirmation was done with another dean who's the overall person in charge of the student conduct office. in my case, both of those deans are reasonable and supportive.

i really don't think this incident matters all that much; i've heard ppl getting into top 20s with criminal convictions and academic violations. but one thing you should make sure is that the explanation from you and from the school remain consistent. you dont want your amcas explanation to be drastically different from the explanation given by your dean, should medical schools choose to contact him/her.

 

[abandonallships]

is this report the official documentation maintained by the university that states you violated x policy and hence received y sanction? I also received an IA, and on my report it states the policy i violated and the sanction i received. usually, these reports are rather vague.

and you send "send that report to medical schools". first, you dont have to send in anything to schools; on the amcas, you are given a place to explain the incident in your own words, so during that explanation, you can clearly say what truly happened (and i believe you).

now, some medical schools will read your explanation, accept it, move on, and then interview/accept you. but others might contact your school's dean and ask for its version of what happened. if there is significant discrepancy between your AMCAS explanation and the school's documentation of what happened, then could be some problems.

what i recommend is write up an explanation of what happened and then show that explanation to your dean to ensure that your explanation is consistent with the explanation maintained in your record. the dean at my school is very supportive and he/she verified my explanation saying that it is correct and accurate.

from what you described, it doesnt seem that your housing dean is very supportive/reasonable. is there another dean you can approach to take about how to explain the incident? like a student affairs dean or judicial conduct dean? it doesnt seem likely that a housing dean would be in charge of disciplinary proceedings.

at my school, an assistant dean handled my violation and gave me the sanction, but all my record confirmation was done with another dean who's the overall person in charge of the student conduct office. in my case, both of those deans are reasonable and supportive.

i really don't think this incident matters all that much; i've heard ppl getting into top 20s with criminal convictions and academic violations. but one thing you should make sure is that the explanation from you and from the school remain consistent. you dont want your amcas explanation to be drastically different from the explanation given by your dean, should medical schools choose to contact him/her.

Thanks aspiring20,

That gives me some relief, in that I am able to work with another dean in preparing this. The report is sent to the dean of my college (Letters and Sciences). Although I have not yet talked to him/her, I will try to sort this out when it comes to applying for medical schools next year. I believe/hope that he/she along with my Honors dean will be more supportive of me, due to my academic performance (I've talked to the honors dean before too). I just hope from what Lizzy said, that they may choose not to interview me due to this incident despite having a good gpa, mcat score, and volunteering/shadowing/research. I really hope what you say is true about it not mattering "that" much (I know it still matters haha). I will definitely say that I am part at fault on my explanation, and it will not be very different than the report except for those two facts. Thank you so much for your help! 🙂

 

[aspiring20]

Thanks aspiring20,

That gives me some relief, in that I am able to work with another dean in preparing this. The report is sent to the dean of my college (Letters and Sciences). Although I have not yet talked to him/her, I will try to sort this out when it comes to applying for medical schools next year. I believe/hope that he/she along with my Honors dean will be more supportive of me, due to my academic performance (I've talked to the honors dean before too). I just hope from what Lizzy said, that they may choose not to interview me due to this incident despite having a good gpa, mcat score, and volunteering/shadowing/research. I really hope what you say is true about it not mattering "that" much (I know it still matters haha). I will definitely say that I am part at fault on my explanation, and it will not be very different than the report except for those two facts. Thank you so much for your help! 🙂

no problem! its tough having an IA, especially in a process as competitive as this one. i have an IA, and my stats is lower that yours. but i really do think adcoms look at the whole picture and as long as the violation isn't gravely serious, it shouldn't be a road block

and your plan is excellent. definitely talk with your honors deans and ask them with explanations and how the report has the facts wrong. i would also figure out that if med schools are to inquire about your record (aka they conduct the dean's office), which of the deans is responsible for answering such inquries. at my school, all inquries from med/law/grad schools and employers regarding records are addressed by one person. i would find this one person at your school, and talk to him/her.

and like LizzyM said earlier, if you can get a professor or dean to vouch for your character and explanation, that would help as well.

good luck!

 

[abandonallships]

no problem! its tough having an IA, especially in a process as competitive as this one. i have an IA, and my stats is lower that yours. but i really do think adcoms look at the whole picture and as long as the violation isn't gravely serious, it shouldn't be a road block

and your plan is excellent. definitely talk with your honors deans and ask them with explanations and how the report has the facts wrong. i would also figure out that if med schools are to inquire about your record (aka they conduct the dean's office), which of the deans is responsible for answering such inquries. at my school, all inquries from med/law/grad schools and employers regarding records are addressed by one person. i would find this one person at your school, and talk to him/her.

and like LizzyM said earlier, if you can get a professor or dean to vouch for your character and explanation, that would help as well.

good luck!

Haha, that was freshman year. Here comes the hard part 😛 Thanks again for all your help, and I wish you the best of luck when you apply!

 

[KnuxNole]

I would abandon the idea that "any natural person" would shove somebody that shoved them first, because it doesn't necessarily demonstrate a high maturity level or that you learned something from what you did and now know why it was wrong. I'm not sure most people would have reacted this way. Legally, if you got charged with assault, you'd have a hard time claiming self defense on something you could have walked away from. Just be willing to recognize that people interviewing you might see it this way and be expecting you to own up to yourself

Agree. Only middle school people actually think like this. Walking away doesn't mean you are a wimp. The only person that would think that is the lame person that starts the fight. After all, instigators aren't worth anyone's time haha

It's a mistake, which is understandable. At least in the future, you'll know better 🙂

 

[KnuxNole]

come on, you can't say that when you dont know what happened. people get into arguments all the time, and that person could have first shoved the OP simply because he was overly aggressive and not because of anything OP did.

you are assuming that the person shoved the OP first because the OP provoked him. we simply dont know if that's the case.

let's not judge people unfairly.

They do, but it's rare. If someone gets into arguments often, there is a big problem. Unless the other person is aggressive or not a chill guy/gal(I.e. people that live for drama), most people don't get into arguments. I know for little kids and teens, this can be hard to grasp. Even in the college-aged population, this can sometimes occur. Thankfully, in people's 20s, this is very rare.

 

[MedPR]

I am kind of curious when and where this fight took me place. If it was on campus why were the police there? If it was off campus, why did your school get involved?

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[aspiring20]

I am kind of curious when and where this fight took me place. If it was on campus why were the police there? If it was off campus, why did your school get involved?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

at my school the campus police gets involved in just about everything. if something isn't criminal/not worthy of police action, the police will simply send a report to the student affairs office so that the office can take care of the situation. only when an actual crime has been committed does the campus police actually take real action.

and at almost all universities, the schools explicitly state that they have the right to care about things that occurred off campus or in any part of the world as long as the student is enrolled. it may not be fair, but that's the way it works.