Confused and in Debt

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Why the homophobia? Are you insecure? Using the gay thing to demean the medical class clearly speaks of your true values. Let me guess; are you a Pat Robertson kind of Christian? BTW, I am 100% sure any Navy DMO, including me, can kick your a$$ any day on a PT test…

Just another secret of the army cheerleader that he probably does not want to divulge. He surely fits the profile. True blooded american hero who can do no wrong, but if you don't see things his way, you have a problem.'

Notice he did not address his exageration as anything out of the ordinary, but when others do it, its a sin.

Cheerleader, you serve no purpose here other than entertainment for those who like to see fights, and to let prospective students know how awful a boss can really be. So you know what you can do with your hyperbole. Just don't go to the mil med ER when it gets stuck. You can wear your cheerleader outfit pretty much anywhere else.

By the way, as I have posted before in full disclosure, I did receive a letter of reprimand: for JAYWALKING!! So judge me on that.

I also seriously doubt that you have medical officers with an inkling of your exageration. My point is that you are treated as an officer first, and a doctor second. All the issues you mentioned are not acceptable, and besides seeing people slightly overweight, no one could have deficiencies like those without consequences. I have heard of people having their bonuses withheld because of infractions like those. The only difference in the medical corps is that we were not forced to go to professional military education like S.O.S. etc etc. We were not living an episode of MASH. But you must have a pink cheerleader outfit as well as a green one.
 
Could you give me an example of where a medical officer would not be held to the same standards as a line officer? Be it mandatory exercise, multiple meetings, computer training, weigh ins, deployment stuff? We were pretty much expected to have it all. Now I can see where in other places it may not be as grade schoolish as where I was, but that was my experience.

I guess the single biggest thing that comes to mind is PT. There are countless overweight physicians at my hospital that would never even sniff promotion with their APFT scores. In the medical corps, getting promoted to full colonel basically just requires a pulse and no serious criminal acts (and, of course, the willingness to stay in). Back in the day, if we didn't score at least a 290 on the PT test, then we had to write a memorandum explaining to our commander why we didn't. Now, in the medical corps, if we score a 290 then we get a 4-day pass.

A buddy of mine recently failed our record APFT, and I don't mean that he just barely failed it because he had a bad day. I mean he never really had a chance. In a line unit, any officer who fails the APFT is a soup sandwich to begin with, and would be doing remedial PT daily. In the medical corps, as long as he passes (never mind doing well) the APFT just prior to submitting his promotion packet, then he's good to go.

I know that's just one example, but to me it's a pretty big one considering how much emphasis the "real" Army puts on physical fitness. That's a pretty big discrepancy between two parts of the same organization. It's entirely possible that the Air Force is a lot more stringent about this type of thing though.
 
...there is no doubt in my mind that medical corps officers get away with things that line officers would never be able to.

What do you get away with? This could be a pro! NICE!
 
What do you get away with? This could be a pro! NICE!

Well, for one, I don't wear my uniform to work. I either change into my uniform or scrubs. It's not that great of a perk, but again, in the "real" Army you'd have your ass chewed for this sort of thing. Here, half of my superiors do the same thing, so unless the CG wants to crackdown then I'm in the clear.
 
I am applying to medical school atm the am also in the process of applying to the AFHPSP.

I don't want this to be another pros/cons thread, I just need very honest opinions.

Like: all other things aside....was it worth $200,000 in loans?

I feel like recruiters have caught me in a very vulnerable position, I am 42,000 in debt from undergrad and have financially UNSTABLE parents that haven't been able to help EVER. I don't blame them or anything, but at this point a free medical education sounds pretty good. However, I realize that there are significant downsides to the program, including some crappy standards of practice in military hospitals (a recurrent theme in other threads).

Please discuss, I value your help immensely!!

I am sure this has been addressed but recruiters = salesmen. Whatever you do make sure you slow them down, read everything, and stay in charge. Don't be intimidated, their agenda is different from yours.
 
I guess the single biggest thing that comes to mind is PT. There are countless overweight physicians at my hospital that would never even sniff promotion with their APFT scores. In the medical corps, getting promoted to full colonel basically just requires a pulse and no serious criminal acts (and, of course, the willingness to stay in). Back in the day, if we didn't score at least a 290 on the PT test, then we had to write a memorandum explaining to our commander why we didn't. Now, in the medical corps, if we score a 290 then we get a 4-day pass.

A buddy of mine recently failed our record APFT, and I don't mean that he just barely failed it because he had a bad day. I mean he never really had a chance. In a line unit, any officer who fails the APFT is a soup sandwich to begin with, and would be doing remedial PT daily. In the medical corps, as long as he passes (never mind doing well) the APFT just prior to submitting his promotion packet, then he's good to go.

I know that's just one example, but to me it's a pretty big one considering how much emphasis the "real" Army puts on physical fitness. That's a pretty big discrepancy between two parts of the same organization. It's entirely possible that the Air Force is a lot more stringent about this type of thing though.

I knew of one OB/GYN that got out because of obesity. The AF used to do bike testing for fitness, but it was horribly unreliable, and you could get a medical reason to fail it fairly easy, (so I can see that as a medical officer). However, they then switched to mandatory PT. We were treated like 3rd graders, and had to physically write down what we had done of an excell file. It got so ridiculous one of the more blue oriented attendings wrote cutting grass as his exercise for the day. I do recall then having to run and do push ups and sit ups, but if you failed you went to some remedial class. It was an impossible way for anyone to get out, but the classes included ranks of all types except Lt. Col and above. So I guess I agree, there are certain things that a medical officer is not held to the same standard, but they are few and fairly meaningless. Shots, readiness, meetings, uniform, hair, everything else was run as a military operation. My point being that without exageration, it takes an incredible amount of time away from patient care to be your own secretary, nurse, and keep up with all the 3rd grade drivel, computer training, etc etc. We without a doubt were expected to be officers first and doctors second.


Appreciate your examples, and I see where you're coming from. However, the tiny break they may represent, is nothing compared to the freedoms you give up in medical training, ability to take care of patients, and all the problems that we post about here.
 
Well, for one, I don't wear my uniform to work. I either change into my uniform or scrubs. It's not that great of a perk, but again, in the "real" Army you'd have your ass chewed for this sort of thing. Here, half of my superiors do the same thing, so unless the CG wants to crackdown then I'm in the clear.

One perk about being a doc is that nobody says anything when my beret looks like I'm hiding a cat underneath it.
 
Why the homophobia? Are you insecure? Using the gay thing to demean the medical class clearly speaks of your true values. Let me guess; are you a Pat Robertson kind of Christian? BTW, I am 100% sure any Navy DMO, including me, can kick your a$$ any day on a PT test…
You must not read well. As being openly gay is terms for seperation, I would argue that an openly gay doctor or nurse is getting different treatment lets say than an openly gay tanker. Sorry to disappoint you but my point was only to further support my contention that the rules are different for medical types.

Actually I am Pat Robertson but don't tell anyone.

I'd welcome that PT challenge. Ever heard of the ironman, or ultramarathons? Have done both.
 
Well, for one, I don't wear my uniform to work. I either change into my uniform or scrubs. It's not that great of a perk, but again, in the "real" Army you'd have your ass chewed for this sort of thing. Here, half of my superiors do the same thing, so unless the CG wants to crackdown then I'm in the clear.


This also must be place and person specific. That was nipped in the bud early when in order to appear more professional we had to come in blue's everyday except on "training days" when we could wear our BDU's. Walking out in scrubs could get you and LOC!
 
You must not read well. As being openly gay is terms for seperation, I would argue that an openly gay doctor or nurse is getting different treatment lets say than an openly gay tanker. Sorry to disappoint you but my point was only to further support my contention that the rules are different for medical types.

Actually I am Pat Robertson but don't tell anyone.

I'd welcome that PT challenge. Ever heard of the ironman, or ultramarathons? Have done both.

Suuuureee. :laugh:
 
This also must be place and person specific. That was nipped in the bud early when in order to appear more professional we had to come in blue's everyday except on "training days" when we could wear our BDU's. Walking out in scrubs could get you and LOC!

Yeah, probably not just site specific, but also CG specific. The old-timers tell stories of one CG who tried to nip this in the bud, stating that you had to wear a uniform to work. So, everyone started wearing their PT uniform and then changing into scrubs. Then he ordered that you could only wear your PT uniform to work if you had actually been doing PT, so he posted NCOs at all the hospital entrances to see if you had been sweating. Some people would even go as far as to splash water on themselves to simulate sweat. I guess they figured the NCOs wouldn't go as far to actually smell the people walking in the doors.

Not wearing scrubs in and out of the hospital can actually be a big deal. So, I don't do it, even if they're my own scrubs and not government property. I've heard stories of past CGs giving out article 15s to officers if caught wearing them in the parking lot.
 
I know this maybe not on point, but I also heard of a doc getting an LOC for using his polka dot umbrella to run in during a rain storm, instead of the black one. My squadron commander, a muff diving malignant bit@@ took away an award from one of her own nurses, because she was on the weight management program.

I guess the point is once again that you can find yourself under some real peckerwoods who have no idea what your job is other than to bow down to them. Unfortunately it seems more of a common thing than not, at least in the AF.
 
I know this maybe not on point, but I also heard of a doc getting an LOC for using his polka dot umbrella to run in during a rain storm, instead of the black one.

Hahaha, was the guy wearing his PT uniform? I know in the Army we're not even supposed to carry an umbrella while in uniform, much less use one, much less use a polka dot one.
 
Hahaha, was the guy wearing his PT uniform? I know in the Army we're not even supposed to carry an umbrella while in uniform, much less use one, much less use a polka dot one.

Women are allowed to carry an umbrella, but men aren't. Go figure.
 
This thread has totally changed topic. However...

The line only really cares that you are a good doc. They are willing to overlook shortcomings in officership as long as you take good care of the guys.

The medical command weenies only really care about playing soldier or looking like soldiers except they don't really know how. It is obvious because all of the line people laugh at them during exercises and real world stuff. These are the people that hand out LOC/LOR/Article 15 for jaywalking, parking in the wrong place, using an umbrella, anything that has zero impact on patient care. They don't ever think about patient care because that is their lowest priority, way behind making rank, looking good on paper, writing packages for themselves, protecting the status quo, ensuring someone else deploys, etc.

If you work for the line, things can be good. If you are attached to the med center, god help you.
 
Just another secret of the army cheerleader that he probably does not want to divulge. He surely fits the profile. True blooded american hero who can do no wrong, but if you don't see things his way, you have a problem.'

Notice he did not address his exageration as anything out of the ordinary, but when others do it, its a sin.

Cheerleader, you serve no purpose here other than entertainment for those who like to see fights, and to let prospective students know how awful a boss can really be. So you know what you can do with your hyperbole. Just don't go to the mil med ER when it gets stuck. You can wear your cheerleader outfit pretty much anywhere else.

By the way, as I have posted before in full disclosure, I did receive a letter of reprimand: for JAYWALKING!! So judge me on that.

I also seriously doubt that you have medical officers with an inkling of your exageration. My point is that you are treated as an officer first, and a doctor second. All the issues you mentioned are not acceptable, and besides seeing people slightly overweight, no one could have deficiencies like those without consequences. I have heard of people having their bonuses withheld because of infractions like those. The only difference in the medical corps is that we were not forced to go to professional military education like S.O.S. etc etc. We were not living an episode of MASH. But you must have a pink cheerleader outfit as well as a green one.



While I have no doubts you worked for some real losers, and I will assume that your technical skills and work ethic are ok, I also however have no doubt that your "jaywalking" LOR was a way for your command to stick it to a prick.

For you to label me as a cheerleader is perhaps one of the most bizarre statements you have made. Perhaps you forget that my criticisms of military medicine and the bureaucracy, AHLTA and other military specific stupities has been withering. I've never argued that the individual cannot get screwed by Uncle Sam. What I have consistently argued it the following:

1. Military servicemembers deserve fanstastic care - this requires idealistic individuals to give of themselves, in other words serve in the military -not necessarily for 20 years.

2. Your obligation is first and foremost to your patient and no matter how much you want to confabulate that the military is going to somehow compromise this you are wrong.

3. While there are major problems, there are also opportunities for personal and professional growth in the military.

4. The tenor of this board is overly negative and the membership seems to consist of very bitter, and self centered narcasistic individuals who put themselves above all else.

I get disappointed in myself when I get pulled into the muck and the ad hominem attacks that your and your fellow bashers engage in, but so long as you put garbage on this site, I will refute it. If you would like me to stop posting, please do the same.
 
This thread has totally changed topic. However...

The line only really cares that you are a good doc. They are willing to overlook shortcomings in officership as long as you take good care of the guys..

Holy Cow!! We agree on something.
 
Holy Cow!! We agree on something.

Yeah, I know. Scary, huh? Oh well, I'm relating my experience with the military and not just being some contrarian a$$hole because I generally disagree with you.
 
While I have no doubts you worked for some real losers, and I will assume that your technical skills and work ethic are ok, I also however have no doubt that your "jaywalking" LOR was a way for your command to stick it to a prick.

The *****s that I experienced in command are far more common than not. I'm quite sure by your behavior on this board that you've been called far more than a prick by your underlings, perhaps those above you as well.

For you to label me as a cheerleader is perhaps one of the most bizarre statements you have made.

It really is not. EVERY single time we point out criticisms you take the immediate offense, and attack our personality. You are by far the highest military medicine advocate on this forum even though you have acknoledged some shortcomings.

Perhaps you forget that my criticisms of military medicine and the bureaucracy, AHLTA and other military specific stupities has been withering. I've never argued that the individual cannot get screwed by Uncle Sam. What I have consistently argued it the following:

1. Military servicemembers deserve fanstastic care - this requires idealistic individuals to give of themselves, in other words serve in the military -not necessarily for 20 years.

I agree that military servicemembers deserve fantastic care. I do not, however, think they get it. Its not because of idealistic individuals lack of trying, its because of the bureaucracy continually makes our jobs exceedingly more difficult, and snuffs out that idealism. Multiple examples of that have been given, but you seem to downplay them as service specific, or because the individual somehow must have deserved it. Its your typical MO, and its one of the reasons you come across as such a prick.


2. Your obligation is first and foremost to your patient and no matter how much you want to confabulate that the military is going to somehow compromise this you are wrong.

Once again, I believe and experienced the system directly affecting and compromising patient care. Multiple people have posted so here, its even been on the lay media, and in Pulitzer Prize winning exposes, but once again you denigrate our experiences by outright saying that we are lying. Do you think that we have made these things up? There are bad physicians everywhere. However, there seems to be a preponderance of them in the military, and clearly one reason is the emphasis on people management, as they ascend in time and rank, instead of continuing medical practice and advancement to be a mentor to younger physicians. The medical military culture is that they do not expect to keep physicians long term. They have no incentive to create leaders who actually practice medicine. God knows how you seem to have carved out a little niche for yourself where other than AHLTA and other military specific stupidities, you seem to be as happy as a pig in a poke, and have no trouble taking care of your patients. Its good for you. I have never said you confabulated your current experience. I don't understand it, and I'm sure in the past I have said you must be a mediocre physician to be able to say those things, but I may be very wrong. Its just that the experience you are having seems to be quite unique, and clearly just not what many of us experienced. So when we post negative experiences why is it that you must think every person asking about military medicine will have it as good as you?? Most intelligent and highly educated people will not tolerate the somnambulism with which most medical leadership take their jobs.


3. While there are major problems, there are also opportunities for personal and professional growth in the military.

Yes there are. You can fly, (ride in) military aircraft, go on humanitarian missions, go to war, ride a tank, etc etc.... But I would dare say that if medicine is you ultimate goal in life, the military can stifle and not even present some of those opportunities. Even you think there is a problem with surgeons not being able to keep their skills up. What about other subspecialits?? Everything feeds off the same system, and if one area is not getting support, its going to affect other areas as well. If you are an 18 yo going nowhere, yes I think there are great opportunities. If you are not set on what kind of physician you want to be, and want to take a chance on not having the ability to have a residency of your choice, then it may also be good. BUT, just like in the military, civilian training and life can give you opportunities for personal and professional growth. We point out negative events, and missed opportunities that have happened to us and others as a direct result of military medicine.



4. The tenor of this board is overly negative and the membership seems to consist of very bitter, and self centered narcasistic individuals who put themselves above all else.

Now why do you think that is, the overly negative part?? But then you take up your old MO and insult us. Do you ever think you are the narcissist?? Why would it be that a majority of attendings have varying negative experiences, but you have to point out how they are all wrong, and must have a personal defect. If that is not self centered, then I don't know what is. Perhaps that is only one of the reasons that I have wondered about your medical care of patients. One who thinks so highly of himself to point out that everybody who had it bad must be an idiot, is also highly likely to never admit or consider that he is really not that good a doctor. I don't know if you are or not. Certainly your venomous sarcasm and attacks against us don't say much about your personality. How do you react when a patient questions your treatment?

Most of us on this forum have finally found a place where we can be heard. Where we can tell our story, so that others know with alot more information if they think the military is going to be a place for them. The VAST majority do it for the money. I think so far there has at least been a concensus that its the wrong reason to do it. There are many others, and why us posting them gets your panties in such a wad, is really a strange thing. Notice once again, that I usually end my "rants" with the further advice to call current AD military physicians and get as many opinions as they can.




I get disappointed in myself when I get pulled into the muck and the ad hominem attacks that your and your fellow bashers engage in, but so long as you put garbage on this site, I will refute it. If you would like me to stop posting, please do the same.

You and me both. But we disagree on what is garbage. Until you can curve your condemnation of events and experiences that you did not experience, we will continue to have these back and forths. One thing I learned in the military is that if you wrestle with a pig, you both get muddy, but the pig loves it more than you. Yet I cannot seem to help myself to get in the pit with you. Even though I think your maliciouness allows more people to see what ridiculousness, and stupidity they can encounter in military medicine, I still want to call you on it. I guess I need to learn to stop getting muddy. I have lost count of the people that have asked my advice whom I've prevented from a path that at this time seems filled with uncertainty and trouble. Ultimately its seems our collective wish is that it gets so bad for the military in terms of accession that they will have to do something to fix the very severe problems that prevent our soldiers from getting the very best care they deserve. I think it will never happen, so for the moment, I will keep posting my experiences, and hoping that you are not around the corner everytime ready to push me in the pit again.

Happy Veterans Day.
 
Over the years I've had a few of my patients follow their dreams and go on to medical school. They asked my advice and I've always counseled them to talk to as many active duty docs as possible before making a decision whether to remain with the military or not. I tell them to talk to the pediatrician, the internist, the family practice docs, etc. So far, to my joy, none of these talented young people has chosen to remain in the military. Every doc in every specialty has told them to avoid military medicine at all costs. I am proud to be an anti-recruiter for the military medicine meat grinder that chews up and throws away its doctors.
 
Over the years I've had a few of my patients follow their dreams and go on to medical school. They asked my advice and I've always counseled them to talk to as many active duty docs as possible before making a decision whether to remain with the military or not. I tell them to talk to the pediatrician, the internist, the family practice docs, etc. So far, to my joy, none of these talented young people has chosen to remain in the military. Every doc in every specialty has told them to avoid military medicine at all costs. I am proud to be an anti-recruiter for the military medicine meat grinder that chews up and throws away its doctors.

And because you have done so, nobody has the right, or should have the gall to call you some decrepid winer that has personality issues. You have done what in your best opinions based on your experiences seemed as the right thing to do. Apparently it seems the majority of your colleagues feel exactly the way you do. Why anyone would want to refute such a large voice is strange and wierd. Its as if by having our crappy experiences we are personally attacking them??

There is no question the military is not for everybody. If you want to be a doctor, unfortunately the potential problems far outweight any benefits. It still seems to me the majority of the people do it for the money with the caveat that they are joining a quality organization that will allow them to succeed, grow and prosper in the field of medicine. Unfortunately, since the onset of Tricare, and likely before even that, there has been such a global decline that it is no longer even minimally acceptable. Its declined into a decrepid system run by a bunch of *****s who care about no one but themselves. While that may be considered by some as an exageration, its what I experienced. Before anyone signs on the line, do yourselves the favor, and talk to active duty docs, as many as you can in all branches. See what the current crop thinks. Good luck
 
Top