Confused MD/DO situation

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ankit1ag said:
Yes, I do not want this thread to close because of a debate on MD vs DO. I am concerned with FMG vs. DO. Also, I just want information, graduate statistics, and any other information that can help make a decision if I get accepted to both programs.

Thanks
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See my post number 5 of this thread. There you will find plenty of statistics and match lists to occupy you for a while. 😉
 
Ok, I understand what you are saying. Do you still believe this though in the light of my last comments?
 
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I'm suddenly reminded why I haven't posted much in any of the pre-allo or osteo threads lately..... I'll never understand how people can post w/ such an authoritative tone when its clear they really don't know what they are talking about and post blatantly false information.

a few quick points...

1. Private DO schools are no more expensive then the average PRIVATE MD school. Along the same lines, the state-supported DO schools (Texas, NJ, MSU and a few others) are around the same prices as the state MD schools.

2. Where did you ever get the idea that DO residencies where based out of Doctors offices and not hospitals?

3. Some DO schools have it in their mission statement to produce primary care doctors and try to attract students who would honestly like to do just that. Others do not and have a higher rate of specialization then many MD schools. You really need to take a look at the match lists and see w/ your own eyes where DO students are matching.

and I'm out...

Decicco said:
Back on topic:
There are other things that you need to consider when looking at Caribbean schools as well. Caribbean schools tend to be less expensive than US MD schools, let alone DO schools that are more expensive than both. However, DO schools tend to give out more scholarships, ecspecially if you show an interest in their philosophy, and I think that your MCATS may be high enough to permit some kind of scholorship. Also, they usually discount your tuition if you are in state.

For Caribbean schools, I've heard good things about Ross School of Medicine, Saba School of Medicine, and St. George University. I had a friend in your situation who went to SGU and I'll try and get in contact with him to see how things are going.

For both DO and C-MD schools, you will need to do well on your tests to get a strong residency. If you don't think you will perform well on these, I know that Osteopathic schools have their own matching program you can opt into, which places most of their physicians at a community hospital or doctor's office. Caribbean schools have arrangements with US hospitals that may aid you in finding a decent residency.

Last, you may want to ask yourself what kind of doctor you want to be. Most DOs become family practice doctors, and if you are interested in that, I think a DO school would be your best bet (ecspecially if you have one in your home state).
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I vote for the DO route. Crime rates are sky high in the Caribbean. 👎
 
Very cool. PM me if you have more about this.
 
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Decicco said:
Back on topic:
let alone DO schools that are more expensive than both.
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If you'd take the time to visit the link which SDN has put together, you'll see that instate tuition for DO schools is between 2-4 thousand more per year, and the average out of state tuition is the same as MD schools.

Decicco said:
Osteopathic schools have their own matching program you can opt into, which places most of their physicians at a community hospital or doctor's office.
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Complete crap. Osteopaths do not put you into a doctors hospital for residency. And if you'd like to have a discussion on the benefits of a Community vs Academic hospital training, then feel free to start that topic. I personally prefer a 75/25 mix with the majority of the time leaning towards community hospital based.

Decicco said:
Last, you may want to ask yourself what kind of doctor you want to be. Most DOs become family practice doctors,
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A decent portion, but not all. There are DOs in every specialty out there and there are AOA residencies in just about every specialty. The only exception which I can think of off the top of my head is pathology.

And as for Bennett being an authority, I personally scoff at that, but I don't have the time to sit here and critique his ad hominum and generalizations tonight.
 
Decicco said:
Back on topic:
There are other things that you need to consider when looking at Caribbean schools as well. Caribbean schools tend to be less expensive than US MD schools, let alone DO schools that are more expensive than both. .... Also, they usually discount your tuition if you are in state.
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Please get your facts right.

Caribbean school is MORE expensive than most US schools in general ...

Preclinical/Grenada*

Term 1
$17,903
Term 2
$17,903
Term 3
$6,587
Term 4
$17,903
Preclinical/St. Vincent
Term 5
$6,587
Term 6
$13,172
Clinical Program
Term 7
$17,237
Term 8
$17,237
Term 9
$17,237
Term 10
$17,237
Term 11
$17,237



Grand total: $166240

Avg MD in-state - $24K * 4 yrs = $96K
Avg MD out-state - $34K * 4 yrs = $136K

Avg DO in-state - $29K * 4 yrs = $116K
Avg DO out-state - $33K * 4 yrs = $132K

http://more.studentdoctor.net/schools.php

This is a link from last year, remember this doesn't include living expenses.

disclaimer: Not understanding their "semesters" so it might be $146481 since having two pre-clinical things doesn't make much sense. But still ...
 
Orthodoc40 said:
The problem with what you're saying is that you don't understand what the DO curriculum is. Aside from OMM, classes in Years 1 & 2 are the same as at MD schools. Look at schools that have both DO & MD students - they are taking the same classes together. In Years 3 & 4, they have the same required rotations. So reading your faulty reasoning just proves that most premeds that run to the off shore schools that claim "difference with the DO philosophy" are more or less full of it!
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Just like I said - Defensive. They are different. There philosophies are different. Even the schools say they are different than MD schools...and they are. If they aren't different, then why do people go the DO route? Because their numbers weren't good enough to get into an MD school? I was under the impression - from almost every DO I've spoken to - that they liked the DO philosophy.
 
just wondering how i got different numbers on the sdn link

i got

DO instate/outstate = 29k/34k

MD instate/outstate= 24k/33k

glad i graduated 7 years ago...mine was 21+11x3=54k MD (outstate x1 +3x instate)
 
ah, crap. I copied the wrong numbers. I picked two random schools and copied their state avgs and not nat'l avg, but its still not that off. I knew that $21K for state for DO was WAY low but I double checked, just in wrong place again. Thanks!
 
Something to keep in mind about residencies: About 70% of Osteopathic students that apply for allopathic residencies match while only about 20-30% of foreign medical graduates applying for the same residencies match. I saw the link in another thread, but it should be easy to find. The stats are very clear.
 
Well, I can't find anything on that specifically but I will edit this post if I do.
 
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Each "term" is a semester. One in the Fall, one in the Spring, and a shorter/cheaper one in the Summer (you can go through the summer and thus finish the pre-clinical years faster than you would in the US). So each semester is a little over 17,000. Not cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
 
max831 said:
Something to keep in mind about residencies: About 70% of Osteopathic students that apply for allopathic residencies match while only about 20-30% of foreign medical graduates applying for the same residencies match. I saw the link in another thread, but it should be easy to find. The stats are very clear.
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and you can count on just about every single one of those remaining DO's getting a residency that same year through the DO-only residency system....

btw the last time I saw the #'s for foreign grads (including IMG's) it was around 50%
 
Taus said:
and you can count on just about every single one of those remaining DO's getting a residency that same year through the DO-only residency system....

btw I last I saw the #'s for foreign grads (including IMG's) was 50%
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Yes, agreed. I just wanted to point out the reality to FMG hopefuls. The 50% you are referring to is for Canadian grads.
 
Decicco said:
I'm not sure how their semeters work either. I would also reccomend looking at more than one caribbean school to make this decision. From St. Matthew's website it looks like their tuition is $71,000. A far cry from MD and DO schools (If I figured out their semester system correctly).
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Eh, St. Matthew's because its so new is not as established reputation wise. Ross, St. George and AUC are the big three down there. Tuition is going to be comparable to the high end of out of state tuition if not much higher. Ross was $134260 last year. St. Matthew's doesn't have federal funding either. Beware of that! Private loans will make your education MUCH more expensive.

Another thing, look at the starting class size and graduating class size of some of those schools. There have been issues with curriculum at some of the schools down there which is why the 3 I mentioned have strong reputations.
 
Taus said:
and you can count on just about every single one of those remaining DO's getting a residency that same year through the DO-only residency system....

btw the last time I saw the #'s for foreign grads (including IMG's) it was around 50%
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Something else to consider ... when people talk about match rates:

I know people MD's and DO's who didn't match this year. Mostly it was due to the fact that they wanted a specific location and/or applied to very few programs. Most people will always match if you apply to enough programs but remember that some areas are more desirable then others, therefore more competitive.

When you are looking for a school, go with where you feel comfortable in the academics. A lot of medical school is up to you. As long as the school helps you set up clinical rotations (which all US schools do as far as I know) then you are set.
 
Decicco said:
There was a discussion of this at this site. From there:
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I'm not trying to be rude, but please stop giving advice to pre-meds. Now you're referring them to a website that is more or less 100% made up of foreign medical students. How would they know anything about the DO pathway, stigmas, etc.? They're in the same boat as you except you haven't even set foot in a medical school yet - it's all basically what they've "heard." To the OP, nobody can make this choice for you. Ask a bunch of DO students who have actually EXPERIENCED osteopathic education, then ask a bunch of students who have actually EXPERIENCED the foreign medical education and went through the match process, and then draw your own conclusions. I can only speak knowledgably about the osteopathic path because that's the path I took and have experienced first hand up to this point. If you want truthful information on the DO route based on my experiences feel free to PM me and I can describe things in detail. There is a lot of wrong information presented in the pre-allo forum because the general thought process of pre-meds is that they know everything (I was once there too). But do not base your decision on advice given by people who sound confident in their opinions but in reality have just as much knowledge as you do.
 
The MCAT is a difficult test and the worst thing you can do is go into it unprepared
 
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ryandote said:
Yeah, 5th time is the charm!
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Do you really think I should retake the exam one last time? Would it hurt if I got around the same score again? Would it help if I finally got a 30...I think taking it five times would definately make my application weaker...even with a 30.
 
I don't think you should retake the MCAT after having taken it 4 times.
 
dude decicco, for someone who quickly asserts so many opinions, you're not very keen on defending them.

let's not forget that your first link in your sig has outdated information on TCOM. and then there's your second link which is accurate in how a lot of DOs and current students feel about the profession. but then, you have obviously talked to DOs, caribs, and MDs alike to make sure your opinions are not based on anecdotal evidence or biased opinions. right?


and ankit1ag, taking it a 4th time and showing a slight decrease/no improvement wasn't good. unless you're absolutely sure you can improve it to above a 30, then consider taking it but only if you've demonstrated significant improvement in practice tests and passages.
 
ankit1ag said:
Do you really think I should retake the exam one last time? Would it hurt if I got around the same score again? Would it help if I finally got a 30...I think taking it five times would definately make my application weaker...even with a 30.
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Given your MCAT history, I'd advise against retaking it again, unless you can provide evidence that you can make significant improvement and not just trend approximately the same score. To me, this would mean accurately diagnosing your core MCAT issues and seeing if they are readily resolvable, and if so, actually resolving those issues, changing your MCAT study approach, and consistantly scoring higher on practice tests under real conditions.

Basically, I think the poster was being sarcastic in response to another apparently sarcastic post.
 
ankit1ag said:
Do you really think I should retake the exam one last time? Would it hurt if I got around the same score again? Would it help if I finally got a 30...I think taking it five times would definately make my application weaker...even with a 30.
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Sorry, I have been on a real sarcastic streak the last few days and I forget it doesn't translate well on the internet.

Honestly? No. You probably shouldn't retake the MCAT again unless you can think of some serious and easily fixable flaw you are making. Like only getting through half the questions. I would assume if that was the problem the first time you would have worked on the that for the second/third/fourth tries.

Honestly, if the material is difficult or you struggle with standardized tests... retaking probably is not the answer. I really do think you could make DO or FMD, and I've already given my opinion on which would give you more opportunities. In case you forgot...you ought to apply DO.
 
VPDcurt said:
Just like I said - Defensive. They are different. There philosophies are different. Even the schools say they are different than MD schools...and they are. If they aren't different, then why do people go the DO route? Because their numbers weren't good enough to get into an MD school? I was under the impression - from almost every DO I've spoken to - that they liked the DO philosophy.
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I have nothing to defend here. Never said there wasn't a difference in philosophy. I was responding to the stuff you wrote about how everything about the philosophy & curriculum were just pervasively different and how you just couldn't live with that, which just proves some of your ignorance. The curriculum is not that different. How else could schools like MSU have their MD & DO students sitting in the same lectures for year 1? If DO students didn't learn essentially the same stuff in medical school as their MD counterparts, they wouldn't be eligible for residency in all the same specialties - but guess what? They ARE. Don't misread me - some PROGRAMS are closed to DO students - no SPECIALTIES are.

So my point is, how big is that difference in philosophy, at the end of the day, really?? Big enough to move out of the country so you can have 2 different letters after your name?? People who spout about 'difference in DO philosophy' making it unbearable for them to attend a DO program generally don't know enough about what they are talking about, and make that generalization based on a handful of rumors they heard. If they DID know about it, they would realize that the differences in outcome are minor, not major.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
I have nothing to defend here. Never said there wasn't a difference in philosophy. I was responding to the stuff you wrote about how everything about the philosophy & curriculum were just pervasively different and how you just couldn't live with that, which just proves some of your ignorance. The curriculum is not that different. How else could schools like MSU have their MD & DO students sitting in the same lectures for year 1? If DO students didn't learn essentially the same stuff in medical school as their MD counterparts, they wouldn't be eligible for residency in all the same specialties - but guess what? They ARE. Don't misread me - some PROGRAMS are closed to DO students - no SPECIALTIES are.

So my point is, how big is that difference in philosophy, at the end of the day, really?? Big enough to move out of the country so you can have 2 different letters after your name?? People who spout about 'difference in DO philosophy' making it unbearable for them to attend a DO program generally don't know enough about what they are talking about, and make that generalization based on a handful of rumors they heard. If they DID know about it, they would realize that the differences in outcome are minor, not major.
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Well said orthodoc. I would love to know what this huge difference in philosophy is that people don't agree with. Is it treating the patient instead of the disease? Is it believing that an ankle sprain can lead to knee pain a few months later? All I know is I learned the neuro pathways and every muscle, nerve, vein, and artery in the body the same way everyone else in any medical school learned it lol. I'm not bashing anyone who choses the foreign MD. That's their choice and as long as they're happy with their choice that's fine. But I wish people would simply cut to the chase and either say they think OMM is bs, or they simply want an MD after their name because they think it will be more prestigous and get them more respect. There's nothing right or wrong about someone feeling a certain way. The problem is instead of listening to people's advice about the path they've chosen and experienced themselves, they'd rather take the advice of other pre-meds. Hmmmm, who would know more about a DO's curriculum: a student, resident, doctor who has actually taken the classes and gone through it? Or a pre-med who's father's partner's friend told them X X X about X. I wouldn't be surprised if next we saw pre-meds telling practicing physicians about how the world of medicine works :laugh:
 
Orthodoc40 said:
The curriculum is not that different. How else could schools like MSU have their MD & DO students sitting in the same lectures for year 1?
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UConn med and dental students have the first 2 years together. Do you see any UConn dental grads doing orthopedic surgery with a DMD? I don't think so. There are plenty of other components of a medical education that are arguably more significant to one's medical education than sitting in on basic science lectures. Before you call me ignorant, you should probably re-evaluate your own situation and stop assuming things about people you don't even know....Stop being so defensive about DOs. I don't understand why you feel the need to argue everything I say. I was telling my experience regarding medical school choice to the OP - so get over it if you don't like everything I say. That's your problem - not mine.
 
Perrotfish said:
Drexel's MSP SMP is the exception to this rule, if the OP is at all interested. That would put you two years from medical school even if you got in for this fall, however, since almost everyone has to go from MSP to IMS (their second SMP) before going to Medical school.

MD and DO schools in the US have 90+% pass rates, Ross Medical is much lower.
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Yeah I guess I just wasn't considering the MSP program to be an SMP

The pass rate is a touch misleading. 90% of allopaths pass step 1 (USMLE) while 90% osteopaths pass comlex step 1. Only around 65-75% of DOs pass USMLE step 1 and allopaths dont take comlex.

Orthodoc40 said:
Aside from OMM, classes in Years 1 & 2 are the same as at MD schools. In Years 3 & 4, they have the same required rotations.
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Year 1 and 2 make up very little of your medical education. The real difference between any school is found in the clinical setting. So the important thing is to have a good associated hospital with a diverse patient population and a very hands on learning environment. A school can woo you with pretty facilities all they want but if there is no hospital on their campus (or close by w/ a lasting agreement) you might want to look elsewhere.

ankit1ag said:
I am afraid that I won't do as well on the boards since I didn't do that well on the MCAT exam. Some of the posts are disheartening when they point out that some Carribean MDs don't complete med school or don't end up in a US residency program.
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That is something that has not yet been brought up (I dont think). Carribean schools have a very high attrition rates. This could be due to lax entrance requirements (pulse and bank account) but it is something else to consider since you will be spending a lot of money.

There is a correlation between MCAT and USMLE but that does not mean you are destined to do well or doomed to do poorly b/c of your MCAT.

VPDcurt said:
UConn med and dental students have the first 2 years together. Do you see any UConn dental grads doing orthopedic surgery with a DMD?
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You should talk to DDSbound... he may have something to say about that.
 
VPDcurt said:
UConn med and dental students have the first 2 years together. Do you see any UConn dental grads doing orthopedic surgery with a DMD? I don't think so. There are plenty of other components of a medical education that are arguably more significant to one's medical education than sitting in on basic science lectures. Before you call me ignorant, you should probably re-evaluate your own situation and stop assuming things about people you don't even know....Stop being so defensive about DOs. I don't understand why you feel the need to argue everything I say. I was telling my experience regarding medical school choice to the OP - so get over it if you don't like everything I say. That's your problem - not mine.
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The problem Ortho has with you is that giving your experience is passing along false information. You can say you did not apply to DO because you did not agree with it, but do not say there are huge differences that are actually not there. Or at least try and back it up somehow, fyi you will not be able to.

OP - Do not retake MCAT it will only hurt you, take the information you have been given here and make a decision. Oh and some people telling you your MCAT is very competitive for DO schools, I guess how you define competitive but not sure average scores for some schools is "very" competitive. Goodluck.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
I have nothing to defend here. Never said there wasn't a difference in philosophy. I was responding to the stuff you wrote about how everything about the philosophy & curriculum were just pervasively different and how you just couldn't live with that, which just proves some of your ignorance. The curriculum is not that different.
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Youre calling VPDCurt ignorant for saying he doesn't buy in to the DO philosphy?? thats really idiotic as Im sure ur aware that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. As you can see from his post, he wasn't throwing a blanket statement out there that should be adopted by all..he uses the word "I" over and over to convey the fact that it is his personal opinion. As for the curriculum being diff, I should hope that a DO school would heavily integrate osteopathic principles and philosophies into their curriculum. If they didn't, then why go the DO route in the first place??...to learn OMM?
 
Perrotfish said:
So in the Caribbean you have a greater chance of not getting a less respected degree and you might end up paying more for the experience. If you get a DO acceptance, go DO.
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I think that sums it up pretty well, good job Perrotfish 🙂
 
Vizsla said:
Youre calling VPDCurt ignorant for saying he doesn't buy in to the DO philosphy?? thats really idiotic as Im sure ur aware that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. As you can see from his post, he wasn't throwing a blanket statement out there that should be adopted by all..he uses the word "I" over and over to convey the fact that it is his personal opinion. As for the curriculum being diff, I should hope that a DO school would heavily integrate osteopathic principles and philosophies into their curriculum. If they didn't, then why go the DO route in the first place??...to learn OMM?
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Well you are both missing my point. A couple of posters after me may have said it better than I did. DO & MD students learn essentially the same material - otherwise they wouldn't BOTH become orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, GPs, oncologists, radiologists, and everything else in between. If a person wants to become a physician, DO is a route to get there. Having a dismissive attitude by saying, "the philosophy is different" cuts people off from a very viable route to becoming a physician - so why make out differences in underlying philosophy to be huge & insurmountable, when it will get you where you want to be in the end?

Some people refuse to drive VW's because of where they came from. If it's the only car that will get you across a desert, are you going to turn it away because of you don't agree with the underlying philosophy that made them?
 
Orthodoc40 said:
Some people refuse to drive VW's because of where they came from. If it's the only car that will get you across a desert, are you going to turn it away because of you don't agree with the underlying philosophy that made them?
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Honestly I would probably wait for a plane to take me across. Screw philosophy, I'm not dumb enough to try and cross a desert in a car. I mean who the fuc* drives across a desert anyway?

I find it really funny... When people try and say MD=DO some DO shouts out about different philosophies but when people say that they are very different some other DO shouts out that the philosophies are not that disparate.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Honestly I would probably wait for a plane to take me across. Screw philosophy, I'm not dumb enough to try and cross a desert in a car. I mean who the fuc* drives across a desert anyway?

I find it really funny... When people try and say MD=DO some DO shouts out about different philosophies but when people say that they are very different some other DO shouts out that the philosophies are not that disparate.
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I find it really sad that pre allo people argue about the DO philosophy without actually finding out enough about it to make a REAL argument. Animus had it right (above).
 
Instatewaiter said:
I find it really funny... When people try and say MD=DO some DO shouts out about different philosophies but when people say that they are very different some other DO shouts out that the philosophies are not that disparate.
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👍👍
 
Instatewaiter said:
I find it really funny... When people try and say MD=DO some DO shouts out about different philosophies but when people say that they are very different some other DO shouts out that the philosophies are not that disparate.
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You have to understand that there are basically three camps in the osteopathic world:

There are those who want to stay separate from allopaths and keep their own identity by harping on these philosophical differences even though in actual practice there is no difference b/w MD's and DO's (except the few who use OMM)

There are those in the middle who dont care as long as they are physicians practicing as cardiologists, surgeons...etc

Then there are those who are looking to just merge both schools of medicine because in reality there are no real differences between the two in this modern age of medicine.

So you have people who continually say there are differences to serve their own purposes and there are others who say they are pretty much the same...but probably the majority of DO's just dont care and are too busy in practice and making money like all physicians do here in the U.S

These are just my opinions...
 
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