Consensus on telling programs you're ranking them highly?

[ForeverandEver]

What's the consensus on telling programs you're ranking them highly or that they are your top choice? I've heard too many different things from people and I've read too many different things on this site. What is the safe thing for me to do, given that I'm probably an average applicant? Thanks.

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[gutonc]

What's the consensus on telling programs you're ranking them highly or that they are your top choice? I've heard too many different things from people and I've read too many different things on this site. What is the safe thing for me to do, given that I'm probably an average applicant? Thanks.

The fact that you've read and heard lots of conflicting statements should be your first clue that there is no consensus on this question. As far as "safe" goes, I honestly don't think it will matter one way or another if you do or don't tell your #1 program that they're your #1. I think it does have the potential to cause trouble (now or in the future) if you tell multiple programs that they're your #1.

 

[Glucophage]

I've heard from couple of PDs that saying "ranking your program highly" don't mean anything to them. So, I also don't know what's the good way to do this. I was planning to email my top 3 programs that I will rank them #1. It's not true but this is all "game" anyway. I rather have them rank me higher and I choose where I go.

 

[MiniNMD]

I think if you truly have a place in mind that's your #1 choice and you want to profess your love for that program then I think it's absolutely fine for you to do so. The catch is you only get to use that line once and only once otherwise you could land yourself in trouble. If you're on the fence between several excellent choices and you want to tell one of those places they're at the top as some kind of strategy for matching to that program then I think that's a bad move and you're better off just not telling anyone they're your top choice. Saying you like a program to multiple programs but not using the #1 language is pretty easy to see through from the program side of things and I think possibly likely to hurt more than help.

There are lots of games that get played in the match in January and February and really I think the best way to remove yourself from that is to not take any of the feedback you get from programs too seriously and to rank as you see fit with what is right for you.

 

[Glucophage]

I agree with you.
But I have a question still. What is wrong with telling for example 2 different programs that they are #1? It's hard to choose #1 between 2 programs. They could be 1a and 1b on your rank list.

Obviously it's a lie and not ethical but how would that get me in trouble? Obviously they will find out eventually if they ranked me high enough and I ended up not going there. Also, I understand that they may remember me if I apply to their fellowship program. But what else?

 

[starmoon]

I agree with you.
But I have a question still. What is wrong with telling for example 2 different programs that they are #1? It's hard to choose #1 between 2 programs. They could be 1a and 1b on your rank list.

Obviously it's a lie and not ethical but how would that get me in trouble? Obviously they will find out eventually if they ranked me high enough and I ended up not going there. Also, I understand that they may remember me if I apply to their fellowship program. But what else?

I have to say this statement concerns me.

 

[MiniNMD]

I agree with you.
Obviously it's a lie and not ethical but how would that get me in trouble? Obviously they will find out eventually if they ranked me high enough and I ended up not going there. Also, I understand that they may remember me if I apply to their fellowship program. But what else?

Let's see - you're trying to be a physician and you think that it's ok to 1) Lie and 2) Do something unethical because you may not end up in that much trouble for it. I don't think I should have to state the obvious that professionalism and integrity are essential qualities in medicine.

 

[mcl]

There are lots of games that get played in the match in January and February and really I think the best way to remove yourself from that is to not take any of the feedback you get from programs too seriously and to rank as you see fit with what is right for you.

This is a true statement and great advice.

I've always said that there's no advantage to an applicant in telling a program anything other than "I would love to be in your program." Also, there is no advantage to a program in telling an applicant anything other than "We would love for you to train here."

Please don't think that programs are going to rank you highly just because you tell them that they are your first choice. Out of 70 or so people we interview, at least 30 will tell me that we are first on their rank list. It's nice to hear. In most cases I'd be happy to see any of their names on my Match list. But I can guarantee their email won't move them more than 2-3 spots from their original position on the rank list.

Similarly, please don't think you are under any obligation to a program who volunteers that you are "ranked to match" or "ranked within our traditional match position." It's nice to hear. But it doesn't mean that program should leap frog a program you liked better, even if you haven't heard from the other program's PD.

Assess the things that are important to you. Think about how you were treated during your interview day. Remember what you thought about the residents you met and what you noticed about their relationships with each other. Then rank according to how you liked programs, even if means a last-minute change of heart regarding which program is truly your #1.

 

[mlw03]

Medicine ain't as big a field as we like to think, especially certain specialties or subspecialties. Your reputation will follow you forever, so ignoring the ethical aspects, doing this is a massive career risk for a virtually non-existent benefit. Piss off the wrong PD and you could be f-ing over your own career big time. Doing this, in my opinion, is incredibly foolish and would justify any ill effects that came to the applicant in their future.

Agree with the general advice given in this thread. To the applicants, waiting time is upon you. Don't get too inside your own heads in the next 2 months.

I agree with you.
But I have a question still. What is wrong with telling for example 2 different programs that they are #1? It's hard to choose #1 between 2 programs. They could be 1a and 1b on your rank list.

Obviously it's a lie and not ethical but how would that get me in trouble? Obviously they will find out eventually if they ranked me high enough and I ended up not going there. Also, I understand that they may remember me if I apply to their fellowship program. But what else?

 

[Saluki]

I really hope it doesn't hurt you to tell programs that they're one of your top choices. I guess, though, maybe the above poster is right, and the program will interpret it that you're not ranking them first. On the other hand, not everyone knows too far in advance what they're ranking, and there's a big difference between a program being your number two and your number fifteen. I can see not shifting someone up on the rank list, because they said a program was "one of their top choices," but I would hope that it wouldn't actually hurt your chances.

 

[pixella]

I agree with you.
But I have a question still. What is wrong with telling for example 2 different programs that they are #1? It's hard to choose #1 between 2 programs. They could be 1a and 1b on your rank list.

Obviously it's a lie and not ethical but how would that get me in trouble? Obviously they will find out eventually if they ranked me high enough and I ended up not going there. Also, I understand that they may remember me if I apply to their fellowship program. But what else?

Wow, so many things wrong with this. As for how could it get you in trouble, earlier this week I was at an interview where the PD told us about an applicant who told him they were his #1. When match day rolled around and the applicant didn't match with them, the PD was understandably puzzled, shall we say, or maybe even miffed. He communicated with the applicant's new PD and is apparently still in touch with him. He reported to us that apparently things the now-resident has done at his program make him unsurprised at his past behavior.

So how could it get you in trouble? Your PD-to-be will know you are a scumbag right from the start, instead of having to wait and find out later.

 

[2012mdc]

I really hope it doesn't hurt you to tell programs that they're one of your top choices. I guess, though, maybe the above poster is right, and the program will interpret it that you're not ranking them first. On the other hand, not everyone knows too far in advance what they're ranking, and there's a big difference between a program being your number two and your number fifteen. I can see not shifting someone up on the rank list, because they said a program was "one of their top choices," but I would hope that it wouldn't actually hurt your chances.

There is no benefit to saying "one of my top choices". If you are sending thank you notes you can explain why you liked the program without mentioning how you plan to rank it. Especially this early in the season.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Wow, so many things wrong with this. As for how could it get you in trouble, earlier this week I was at an interview where the PD told us about an applicant who told him they were his #1. When match day rolled around and the applicant didn't match with them, the PD was understandably puzzled, shall we say, or maybe even miffed. He communicated with the applicant's new PD and is apparently still in touch with him. He reported to us that apparently things the now-resident has done at his program make him unsurprised at his past behavior.

So how could it get you in trouble? Your PD-to-be will know you are a scumbag right from the start, instead of having to wait and find out later.

How the hell did he find out where the applicant end up matching? Did he really page through that schools rank list to find out? Me smells strong stench of BS, or serious personality disorder.

 

[2012mdc]

How the hell did he find out where the applicant end up matching? Did he really page through that schools rank list to find out? Me smells strong stench of BS, or serious personality disorder.

It wouldn't take much work at all and a PD could just ask the PC to do it.

Put yourself in the PD shoes. You absolutely love an applicant and he's #1 on your ROL. He tells you that you're his top choice and you look forward to working with a resident that you anticipate will be great in your program. Match Day comes and he's not in your program. You would be upset (regardless of how many times you may have "lied" to applicants yourself. Definitely upset enough to find out where that applicant ended up

 

[NotAProgDirector]

How the hell did he find out where the applicant end up matching? Did he really page through that schools rank list to find out? Me smells strong stench of BS, or serious personality disorder.

Right after the match, we get a list of all of our ranks and where they matched. So, we would know.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Right after the match, we get a list of all of our ranks and where they matched. So, we would know.

I stand corrected.

 

[mlw03]

Right after the match, we get a list of all of our ranks and where they matched. So, we would know.

Hell, I would guess some PDs rank certain applicants very low just to get that info, assuming they'll never go that low on their own list. Bet more than one PD has been burned by that in the past.

 

[FutureDoc734]

I'm also very conflicted about this. I have two programs that I absolutely loved equally, and am sure will have a very hard time ranking. So, once I do decide on #1, I'm planning on letting them know, but what about for #2? There's always the possibility of not matching at my first choice, so I want to make sure that #2 knows that I'm also very interested in them. Is it ok to say "you'll be ranked very highly on my list" or something along those lines? Will they see my genuine interest, or think that I'm just playing the game?

It's probably best to not worry about this right now, I know... 😕

 

[mlw03]

answered in your message

I'm also very conflicted about this. I have two programs that I absolutely loved equally, and am sure will have a very hard time ranking. So, once I do decide on #1, I'm planning on letting them know, but what about for #2? There's always the possibility of not matching at my first choice, so I want to make sure that #2 knows that I'm also very interested in them. Is it ok to say "you'll be ranked very highly on my list" or something along those lines? Will they see my genuine interest, or think that I'm just playing the game? the latter, in my opinion

It's probably best to not worry about this right now - correct I know... 😕

 

[cbrons]

I think if you truly have a place in mind that's your #1 choice and you want to profess your love for that program then I think it's absolutely fine for you to do so. The catch is you only get to use that line once and only once otherwise you could land yourself in trouble. If you're on the fence between several excellent choices and you want to tell one of those places they're at the top as some kind of strategy for matching to that program then I think that's a bad move and you're better off just not telling anyone they're your top choice. Saying you like a program to multiple programs but not using the #1 language is pretty easy to see through from the program side of things and I think possibly likely to hurt more than help.

There are lots of games that get played in the match in January and February and really I think the best way to remove yourself from that is to not take any of the feedback you get from programs too seriously and to rank as you see fit with what is right for you.

Right after the match, we get a list of all of our ranks and where they matched. So, we would know.

I'm also very conflicted about this. I have two programs that I absolutely loved equally, and am sure will have a very hard time ranking. So, once I do decide on #1, I'm planning on letting them know, but what about for #2? There's always the possibility of not matching at my first choice, so I want to make sure that #2 knows that I'm also very interested in them. Is it ok to say "you'll be ranked very highly on my list" or something along those lines? Will they see my genuine interest, or think that I'm just playing the game?

It's probably best to not worry about this right now, I know... 😕

What is the modern consensus on this?

 

[gutonc]

What is the modern consensus on this?

Because 2011 is basically the Cretaceous period?

The answer is the same.

 

[call me x]

I told my #1s for residency and fellowship they were my #1. Did it make a difference- highly doubtful.
I didn't tell my #2 that I was "ranking them highly" because to me that is code for "you aren't #1." I also didn't tell them that they were #1 because I'm not a ****ty person. Also, the further you specialize, the smaller the circle becomes. People talk- why possibly make it messy for yourself further down the road.
Does ANY of this matter- absolutely not. Love notes aren't going to be the difference between matching somewhere or not.
Just. Breathe.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Right after the match, we get a list of all of our ranks and where they matched. So, we would know.

Or as my Coordinator calls it: "The Liars' List"

 

[AdmiralChz]

Or as my Coordinator calls it: "The Liars' List"

Yep, we've had a few who matched elsewhere who tried to come to our institution for fellowship - our coordinators have pretty good memories and their applications went straight in the trash. Just be honest.

 

[AdmiralChz]

That being said, this makes me think back to my (rural) Family Medicine rotation in medical school where my preceptor (a classically old-school town doc type) claimed a Family Medicine doc should be ready at any time to first-assist C-Sections and other OB emergencies. I didn't understand enough about training at the time to ask him elaborate, so maybe more surgical exposure is provided in certain programs. To be fair, though, I have yet to see an FM resident come anywhere near any operating room as an anesthesiology resident so these programs are likely not at major academic centers.

 

[mvenus929]

That being said, this makes me think back to my (rural) Family Medicine rotation in medical school where my preceptor (a classically old-school town doc type) claimed a Family Medicine doc should be ready at any time to first-assist C-Sections and other OB emergencies. I didn't understand enough about training at the time to ask him elaborate, so maybe more surgical exposure is provided in certain programs. To be fair, though, I have yet to see an FM resident come anywhere near any operating room as an anesthesiology resident so these programs are likely not at major academic centers.

No, they're usually the unopposed family medicine program where residents rotate through all the specialties.