Consensus on top-3 post-bacc programs from successful placement point of view

[exercise]

The FAQ mentions the top programs as follows

East: Columbia, Bryn Mawr, Goucher, UPenn, Harvard Extension, Temple, Tufts, Drexel, UConn, CUNY-Hunter
South: Wake Forest
Midwest: UChicago, Loyola, Northwestern
West: Scripps, Mills, USC, SFSU, CSU-Hayward

The top program, and this is just totally my personal opinion, is not in the above list (Johns Hopkins). Some other excellent programs (Berkeley Extension, etc) are also not in the above list.

Any opinions on the top-3 from successful placement point of view?

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[deleted248403]

Date of the FAQ post you reference: 04-08-2004

I think the universal top 4 are considered to be Goucher, Scripps, BM, and Hopkins

Then after that it gets a bit more debatable

 

[DrMidlife]

"successful placement" isn't the same thing as linkage.

Postbacs that have linkage agreements (Bryn Mawr, Goucher, etc) are extremely competitive and expensive.

If you define "successful placement" as meaning "people get into med school from there" I would argue this is a lot more about the individual student than the postbac school.

Since you asked about low stat schools in another thread, note that there's *no* postbac school with the prestige to wipe away a bad GPA.

Best of luck to you.

 

[henge]

Agree with robflanker:

I think the universal top 4 are considered to be Goucher, Scripps, BM, and Hopkins

I did an analysis of placements in the posting entitled

Hopkins, Goucher, Bryn Mawr, Scripps: med school admissions comparison

In summary, all four of those programs have great records in placing students in med school. My initial post indicated that Goucher and Hopkins had the highest percentage of placements in top schools, as measured by USNWR, though Drizzt3117, who attended Scripps, says he believes the data posted on the Scripps' site is inaccurate. To get a complete picture, you'd also want info on attrition, but that is very hard to come by.

 

[drizzt3117]

"successful placement" isn't the same thing as linkage.

Postbacs that have linkage agreements (Bryn Mawr, Goucher, etc) are extremely competitive and expensive.

If you define "successful placement" as meaning "people get into med school from there" I would argue this is a lot more about the individual student than the postbac school.

Since you asked about low stat schools in another thread, note that there's *no* postbac school with the prestige to wipe away a bad GPA.

Best of luck to you.

Scripps, BM, and Goucher have placed 100% of their grads in med schools over the past 5 years. I believe JHU is just behind that at 95+%.

The thing to remember about Scripps is that a lot of their students attend it to try to get into a UC and or USC. Half the CA schools, and many of the ones Scripps grads end up in, aren't ranked in the top 25, but Scripps has very impressive placement into the CA schools, especially USC.

 

[henge]

Hopkins placed 100% in med school last year, and has placed "virtually all" since inception of program.

 

[Jennet]

Hopkins placed 100% in med school last year, and has placed "virtually all" since inception of program.

Yes, but I feel like Hopkins percentage is more a testament to their admissions than to their placements. They do have a very fine standard for their students and the program is known for being exceedingly successful because of it.

 

[henge]

Hard for me to say, since I haven't seen detailed profiles of the classes.

The only hard data I've seen on entering classes concerns feeder schools, and those are impressive for all of the programs. Over the last 5 years, BM's top 5 feeders were Ivies and all of its top 10 were Ivies or were in USNWR's top 10 national universities or LACs. Over the last 5 years at Hopkins, 2 of the top 4 were Ivies, and 6 of its top 10 were Ivies or were in USNWR's top 10 national universities or LACs (and St Johns. which occupies 2 of Hopkins top 10 slots, does not provide data to USNWR). The single year of data for Goucher shows that 3 of the 4 schools with multiple admittees were Ivies, and 4 additional Ivies or top 10s are represented. Hard to generalize about Scripps, since the site offers only one year of data and the class is so small, but 2 Ivies and 2 other top 10s are represented.

Of course, none of this addresses real world experience, GPAs, test scores or ECs.

 

[drizzt3117]

When I was involved with Scripps admissions, our entering averages were around 3.7/1350 IIRC. Almost everyone was from California, with a few exceptions.

Hard for me to say, since I haven't seen detailed profiles of the classes.

The only hard data I've seen on entering classes concerns feeder schools, and those are impressive for all of the programs. Over the last 5 years, BM's top 5 feeders were Ivies and all of its top 10 were Ivies or were in USNWR's top 10 national universities or LACs. Over the last 5 years at Hopkins, 2 of the top 4 were Ivies, and 6 of its top 10 were Ivies or were in USNWR's top 10 national universities or LACs (and St Johns. which occupies 2 of Hopkins top 10 slots, does not provide data to USNWR). The single year of data for Goucher shows that 3 of the 4 schools with multiple admittees were Ivies, and 4 additional Ivies or top 10s are represented. Hard to generalize about Scripps, since the site offers only one year of data and the class is so small, but 2 Ivies and 2 other top 10s are represented.

Of course, none of this addresses real world experience, GPAs, test scores or ECs.

 

[betterlate]

When I was involved with Scripps admissions, our entering averages were around 3.7/1350 IIRC. Almost everyone was from California, with a few exceptions.

The Goucher entering average GPA was definitely >3.6, but I can't venture a guess about SAT scores. ( I'm not sure if I ever took the SATs, but if I did, they were scored out of 800. I don't know what the new scoring system is, or how to interpret it. I have no memory of my ACT score.) I submitted LSAT (>90th percentile across the board) and GRE (>90th percentile in VR & AR, ~60th percentile in QR) in lieu of SAT. Pretty sure that was similar to my classmates' standardized test scores.

ECs were pretty impressive. Out of 2 consecutive classes (total of ~60 pple), there were at least 1/2 a dozen peace corps volunteers, >4 pro musicians, a pulitzer prize-winning journalist, someone who founded and ran a successful nonprofit while still an undergrad, several students w/ advanced degrees (JD, MS, MPH), many athletes (college football, marathon runners & triathletes, competitive swimmers), etc. To be considered @ Goucher, we all had to have enough exposure to the medical field (shadowing/volunteering/employment/research) to justify our desire to go to medical school, plus we gained more shadowing/volunteer experience during our year at Goucher.

I assume you'll find similar GPA/test score/ECs @ all of the top career-changer postbaccs; that's :why: they're the top programs. They only succeed if they turn out top-notch med-school applicants, which maintains the admissions stats, which in turn attracts more top-notch applicants to the postbacc program, simultaneously allowing them to be selective and ensuring they turn out more top-notch med school applicants... (lather, rinse, repeat)

 

[exercise]

I assume you'll find similar GPA/test score/ECs @ all of the top career-changer postbaccs; that's :why: they're the top programs.

Then they aren't programs that truly add value to a candidate.
These students would most likely have been accepted if they had taken a pre-med curriculum just about anywhere, correct?

 

[drizzt3117]

Then they aren't programs that truly add value to a candidate.
These students would most likely have been accepted if they had taken a pre-med curriculum just about anywhere, correct?

Yes, that's the whole point of the programs. That being said, having linkage, as well as the possibility to have everything laid out for you then wrapped in a nice pretty bow, as well as probably a little higher degree of success is nice.

 

[exercise]

Yes, that's the whole point of the programs. That being said, having linkage, as well as the possibility to have everything laid out for you then wrapped in a nice pretty bow, as well as probably a little higher degree of success is nice.

Well a truly great program will take an average person and put such a person into medical school. Any program that does that?

 

[drizzt3117]

Well a truly great program will take an average person and put such a person into medical school. Any program that does that?

A SMP, perhaps, if they work hard. The the top postbacs are tailored to career changers.

 

[betterlate]

Then they aren't programs that truly add value to a candidate.
These students would most likely have been accepted if they had taken a pre-med curriculum just about anywhere, correct?

Yes and no. I see what you're saying - and you're not wrong - but I still think that there can be value to attending one of the top-tier career-changer postbacc programs. You are correct that these are students who are highly likely to perform well in premed classes at any institution, and will be interesting/competitive candidates in the med school application cycle regardless of where they complete their prereqs. In that sense, career-changer post-baccs are certainly not the only (or even, depending on the candidate, the 'best') way to get into med school.

That said, i think the structure, support & guidance (w/ compiling an application, writing personal statements and secondaries, providing a committee letter, advising, practice interviews, MCAT prep course, etc) and the longterm relationships between postbacc directors and adcoms at many med schools all contain real value to a student. These programs also often provide the quickest route to med school for those of us who are career-changers: complete all prereqs in 1 year + have the opportunity to link = ~1 year from starting postbacc to matriculating into med school.

Obviously everyone has to do their own cost/benefit analysis before opting for another ~30,000+ of student loan debt, but I do think there's a benefit to students who choose to attend.

 

[drizzt3117]

Well a truly great program will take an average person and put such a person into medical school. Any program that does that?

Tulane ACP would be an example of that.

 

[exercise]

That said, i think the structure, support & guidance (w/ compiling an application, writing personal statements and secondaries, providing a committee letter, advising, practice interviews....)

I think anyone who hangs out on SDN gets more than the above. They usually distinguish between beauty contests and Army programs. A beauty contest begins with very attractive people to start with and picks out winners. The Army programs begin with regular Joe's and turns them into winners. There's an intrinsic difference between the two. The post-bacc programs are like beauty contests - even the Tulane ACP "is designed for students who are in the acceptance range at a US medical school" so it too is a beauty contest. I am wondering if there are programs like the Army programs - one that starts with regular Joes and turns them into formidable fighting machines, in our case, gets them admitted into medical school.

 

[drizzt3117]

I think anyone who hangs out on SDN gets more than the above. They usually distinguish between beauty contests and Army programs. A beauty contest begins with very attractive people to start with and picks out winners. The Army programs begin with regular Joe's and turns them into winners. There's an intrinsic difference between the two. The post-bacc programs are like beauty contests - even the Tulane ACP "is designed for students who are in the acceptance range at a US medical school" so it too is a beauty contest. I am wondering if there are programs like the Army programs - one that starts with regular Joes and turns them into formidable fighting machines, in our case, gets them admitted into medical school.

There are no programs that will fix low stats. You need many years of GPA repair and probably a SMP.

 

[exercise]

There are no programs that will fix low stats. You need many years of GPA repair and probably a SMP.

I am not talking about low stats. Just average Joe's.

 

[DrMidlife]

Gonna have to define average Joe, if you want to get somewhere with this.

 

[drizzt3117]

I am not talking about low stats. Just average Joe's.

Career changers who go into medicine are by definition, not average.

Average matriculants to MD schools have about a 3.65 GPA, coincidentally approximately the same as the top postbacs.

 

[betterlate]

I am not talking about low stats. Just average Joe's.

The stellar candidates who get into the top career-changer postbaccs made an effort to acquire the stats and ECs that made them so competitive. You should do the same. Maybe you can't play on your college football team, or whatever, but there must be some activity that you enjoy that you can put some time and effort into.

No postbacc program can give you ECs or stats that you didn't earn, so in that sense, no, no postbacc program can take an average candidate and "turn them into" a stellar candidate. The good news is, you can do that for yourself with the following fool-proof formula: get good grades (mostly As), get involved in activities that make you well-rounded and interesting, gain some exposure to the medical profession, perform well on the MCAT, and polish your communication skills so you come across well in an interview.

Unless you can do that, no program, including a top career-changer program, is going to get you into med school.

 

[greenflower]

Umm in terms of linkage...Temple is a really good deal.

It offers a guaranteed matriculation for everyone in the program if you meet very doable, non-stressful requirements (3.5 GPA in the program and a 30MCAT). This means no competition among classmates, and all the profs you work with want you to make the cutoff. You don't have to apply or re-interview for the med school, or loose a year in applying. They have a program for people who haven't taken any basic sciences (BCMS) and then one for those that have completed them already(ACMS). I did the latter. If you've taken your MCAT before the program starts and already have a 30, then you don't need to stress about the one reason people don't matriculate. If you still need to take the MCAT, they have a year-long MCAT class included in the tuition and schedule it for you.

Anyway, worth an application...lol