Considering applying to medical school after PhD

[ObsoleteLogic]

I'm currently a third year PhD student at a state school in the department of Chemistry. I'm in the Inorganic division, and my research deals strongly with electrochemistry and the investigation of systems that relate to important energy transformations (hydrogen evolution, CO2 reduction). I have a growing publishing record in journals that are considered higher or top tier in my field (and a submission for Science in the coming year).

I graduated with my undergraduate degree in Biochemistry (with three+ years of research experience there) from a different state school in 2015 (3.3 GPA, 3.6 in the sciences) and meet all the course requirements to attend medical school.

Recently, in the last three months or so, I've really begun to regret my decision not to apply to medical school at the end of my undergraduate. The practice of medicine and the topics it deals with the intersection of (physiology, human anatomy, biochemistry, etc.) have always been of great interest to me and I am seriously considering applying to medical school after completing my degree.

The more I think about it, the more sure I am of the choice. I'm doing well in my program and for the most part I enjoy my day-to-day work in science, but there is something about my career trajectory that leaves me unsatisfied. Prior to thinking about medical school I had no plans on trying to start an academic career, and now the prospect of working in an indsutrial setting is beginning to dawn on me. Maybe it's cliche, but I want more out of my interest in science and more out of my education than a few publications and a career in a corporation making money for a company. I want my training and my skills to have a more immediate and direct impact on people, and I know that I could dedicate myself fully and completely to doing so through the practice of medicine.

I'm about to take my oral examination in the spring (it's a lot like qualifying exams if there are others out there who have done their PhD before MD). I have considered mastering out, but the time it would take me to finish what's left here and write a thesis would only "save" me a year of time in graduate school.

I will be 29 (almost 30) when I graduate with my PhD, if things proceed as planned (and I suspect they will). Additionally, I'm in a long-term committed relationship with someone who is a law student (graduating in the spring and with a job at the state level). Am I crazy to be considering this? I recognize I am signing away most of my thirties to a second higher-level education, and that I can expect to come out of it with a lot of debt, but that and even the fact that most people I've talked to don't support the idea haven't completely deterred me yet.

I am seeking clinical volunteering and shadowing opportunities over the next two years so I can be sure (during which I can always change my mind and only have lost the time it took to help) even though balancing that with a high-intensity and demanding PhD program is going to be difficult. I also plan on taking the MCAT after a very thorough amount of time spent on preparation, and intend to get a good score on the exam prior to defending my dissertation.

Is there anyone out there with experience going the PhD-to-MD route that could weigh in on this? I know that there have been discussions by users like me before, but I am seeking advice on my specific situation.

Did you find that pursuing your interests was worth the financial burden and the loss of a lot of time? Do you ever feel that your training in your PhD program is wasted by your change in career? Am I too old and too separated from medical work to be considered by most programs (even with a good MCAT)?

Thank you for any time spent on response.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ObsoleteLogic]

I didn't realize there was a completely separate Nontraditional Students forum, and do apologize for the misplaced thread. If a moderator could move this over there, that would be greatly appreciated. If not possible, I could repost. Thanks!

 

[Robin-jay]

Go for it. Sounds like you have enough to potential to excel in medicine. Very competitive if you score fine on the MCAT.

I earned a masters degree in chemistry, and do not regret my choice in pursuing medicine.

And no, I don't feel like I wasted time during chemistry graduate school. The thesis, research hours, publications, leadership roles, teaching pre-req. courses, etc, etc. all look great for medical admission committees.

 

[ObsoleteLogic]

Thanks, Robin-jay. It's nice to hear someone thinks it could work out positively! Now that I am looking for opportunities to volunteer and shadow, I am wondering if anyone has any advice on how to contact people who could help me take advantage of those opportunities with my schedule the way it is due to my academics (9-5 every weekday, minimum).

Different areas or departments or types of clinics, and so on. I would be more than happy to work 8PM-12AM if I had to, and am more than willing to include longer times on weekends, but I am really looking for a type of position that gives me the chance to network and have patient contact.

 

[Robin-jay]

Thanks, Robin-jay. It's nice to hear someone thinks it could work out positively! Now that I am looking for opportunities to volunteer and shadow, I am wondering if anyone has any advice on how to contact people who could help me take advantage of those opportunities with my schedule the way it is due to my academics (9-5 every weekday, minimum).

Different areas or departments or types of clinics, and so on. I would be more than happy to work 8PM-12AM if I had to, and am more than willing to include longer times on weekends, but I am really looking for a type of position that gives me the chance to network and have patient contact.

Working 9-5 pm, then clinic/hospital from 8-12 am, adding in weekends like nothing. The chemistry grad. school work ethic is a strong one.

 

[amuseddoughnut]

I did this. I also found few people who would recommend such a path, but I had many of the same reasons you do for taking this turn in my career. Here are a few tips from my experience:
- Make a plan for your application timeline now. You should submit your application on the first day of the application season, so roughly June 1st the year before you would like to matriculate. That means your MCAT must be taken by May 1st.
- The MCAT is tough. Study a lot. You should be fine with your background and a commitment to study for a few months, but don't underestimate that beast. You are competing with smart undergrads who have taken a whole summer off to study for this thing. I took it while working on my PhD and I found it hard to study for the MCAT after an 8-10 hour workday in the lab.
- Shadowing is mostly a 9-5 thing. Sometimes you can find an ER that will let you volunteer or shadow on the weekends. You could also contact your local med school and see if there is a volunteer clinic that operates on the weekends where you could shadow some physicians/faculty members that are actively treating and seeing patients. The goal of the admissions committee will be to assess whether you know what being a doctor is all about and you want to demonstrate through your application that you've witnessed what a doctor actually does on a day to day basis. Aim for 50 - 100 hours of shadowing.
- Volunteering is important too, but it doesn't really matter what type of volunteering it is.
- You will want an outstanding letter of rec from your PI, so include him or her in your thought process and plan.
- Lastly, you are not too old. Some programs do give more consideration to more experienced applicants, and some prefer younger and more typical applicants. Aim to apply to many places that have a track record of admitting students with atypical backgrounds (ie older students). Many of the institutions that value more experienced applicants are also research heavy institutions.

It's doable and, in my opinion, a great option. I think my PhD will be an asset, and my life experience certainly already is an asset.

 

[Ambition94]

I too, am in this situation. Currently at the masters level but aiming to become a physician scientist. I would love more than anything to matriculate into a MD/PhD program. But seeing as how DIFFICULT those are to get into, I am shooting for an alternative method (i.e. PhD then go onto medical school). I do biomedical research and work with cardiologists and cardiothoracic surgeons on a daily basis. This has strengthen my interest for medicine and the role that research plays in it. I do not have many clinical volunteer hours but have ~100 hours volunteering at my local habitat for humanity and food bank. Next semester I will be putting in volunteer applications to some of the local clinics/hospitals.

 

[Goro]

Where's @aldol16 when you need him? ???

 

[souplover]

Hey there - I wish I could give you better advice but just wanted to chime in to say that a) I completely relate to everything you said re: your motivations for going to medical school and b) I am also a non-trad PhD to MD. If you'd like to keep in touch or have someone to bounce ideas off of, I would be more than happy! Best of luck!

 

[timephone]

I'm currently doing an undergrad postbacc and one of the PhD students I work with in the lab is pursuing med school. She's defending her dissertation in spring and then taking MCAT soon after. It's totally doable! You've got the makings of a great application, as long as you can explain "why medicine?" convincingly during your interviews. I don't have any recommendations about shadowing, except maybe to try arranging something during a school break. Volunteering is something you can do during any hours. I do hospice volunteering on weekends and after hours.

 

[ObsoleteLogic]

Thanks for all the supportive responses, everyone. I was dreading talking about this after reading some of the threads in the Pre-Medical forum, where I'm seeing undergraduates despairing at hundreds of clinical volunteering hours and 3.7+ GPAs.

I am aware that the PhD is not a substitute for "poor" undergraduate grades, and looking at responses like that really made me feel like my 3.3 or so was going to get me flat out rejected before they even looked at the letters that will be after my name.

Based on feedback thus far, I guess I can assume that a strong MCAT score may offset this, combined with the fact that I am a nontraditional student.

I just got a lot of review material (old copies of TBR, the Kaplan book set for the current exam, TPR for the psych/soc section of the test) and I've been giving a couple of hours a day to content review. It's a bit jarring to go back to concept memorization and broad overviews after zooming in so much in my doctoral program on the intricacies of a given system.

Does anyone recommend other review materials or things like question banks (preferably not ones like Kaplan's where I have to spend thousands of dollars...)

 

[amuseddoughnut]

I recommend taking every full length practice exam (with realistic test conditions, ie timed, quiet area, 8 hours) that you can get your hands on. Make a timeline for when you will reassess yourself at regular intervals. Broad review is important, but I think studying to the test is more important.

 

[Ambition94]

I have heard that Altius has some pretty solid/comparable practice tests. Pricing is reasonable. Worth looking into.

 

[arcus]

It's a bit jarring to go back to concept memorization and broad overviews after zooming in so much in my doctoral program on the intricacies of a given system.

Yes it is.
Medicine entails both connecting concepts and rote memorization. The former will be easy for you. The latter may very well drive you into despair because you will have to memorize minutiae like the enzymes involved in normal glycogen metabolism and enzymes in glycogen disorders. You may ask yourself as a PhD “why?” since it will not be relevant down the road and you can always consult a book or online source for the name of that one danged enzyme. Alas it is part of the game. You got to play the game.

When you are older and wiser, you see the game as cumbersome, frustrating and inefficient, and you would be correct in all three accounts. But you still have to do it. When you are 22 years of age, youll do anything they tell you to do. When youre older, not so much.

So if you want to pursue an MD after earning a PhD, youre going to have to wrap your head around the awful bitter truth: you have to play the game.

I think you should do it. You would be a tremendous asset to any organization.

Does anyone recommend other review materials or things like question banks (preferably not ones like Kaplan's where I have to spend thousands of dollars...)

you're going to have to spend thousands of dollars to play the game

sorry. it stinks. I know. But if you want the piece of cheese, youre going to have to follow the maze. The labyrinth aint pretty. it gets better though

 

[Robin-jay]

It's a bit jarring to go back to concept memorization and broad overviews after zooming in so much in my doctoral program on the intricacies of a given system.

You should be fine. After I went through chemistry graduate school, I was also worried about "rote memorization".

I recently took an exam over medical terminology and what-not, and scored the highest the place has ever seen 😛.

Not only that, but most people were give 1-2 weeks to study. I was given 36 hours.

 

[DelayedGratification]

As someone comfortable with Chemistry, the MCAT should come naturally to you. Chemistry promotes higher order thinking

 

[Robin-jay]

As someone comfortable with Chemistry, the MCAT should come naturally to you. Chemistry promotes higher order thinking

CARS is the worst.

 

[DelayedGratification]

CARS is the worst.

CARS is very random...I'm still not sure what to make of it and it ended up being my strongest section

 

[Robin-jay]

CARS is very random...I'm still not sure what to make of it and it ended up being my strongest section

Yea, it definitely wasn't my favorite section lol. Ironically, I scored waaaay higher on the biology section than I thought.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm a chemistry PhD-to-MD (organic/pharmaceutical chem). It's not the most common thing in the world, but you obviously wouldn't be the first to do this. I was 30 when I applied, 31 when I matriculated, and 39 when I became an attending. I am now working (very) part-time while doing a fellowship in a highly chemistry-oriented subspecialty.

As others have said, you will be competing with other applicants primarily based on your premed prerequisites and your ECs. If you haven't already obtained clinical experience, this is an absolute must and where you should begin. Is there a medical school affiliated with your university? If so, look into volunteering in the surgery waiting room. That can be done early-morning before you go to the lab since most ORs start around 7AM. Other options as people mentioned include the ER (may be difficult to get in since this is a common path for premeds), hospices, and nursing homes. Plan on volunteering weekly for at least a year. The average applicant has around 200-400 hours, and many have substantially more.

If you have any UG grades lower than a C, and your university allows it, consider retaking those courses. If you have a C or better in everything, retaking is unlikely to make much difference. As others have said, the MCAT is a big hurdle, and it's one you need to take seriously so you can do as well as possible. Being a grad student can be a disadvantage for MCAT performance since sometimes you know too much. You have to think about the questions at a sophomore chemistry level, not at a PhD level. I suggest that you focus on your quals for now, and then spend 2-3 months studying part time for the MCAT. If you are a self-motivated studier, it is not necessary to buy a formal course, but you should at least buy some practice tests and/or an online question bank. You also should at minimum get a review book so that you can go through all of the material that will be on the test and have a good understanding for how the test is laid out. The MCAT forum on this site is also an excellent prep resource.

 

[Naruhodo]

I just wanted to chime in to say that there was not 1 but rather 3 PhDs in my entering medical school class. As others have pointed out, the PhD on its own isn't enough to guarantee acceptance but it certainly doesn't hurt either. I bit the bullet when I was preparing for the MCAT and paid for a class/materials, because I had tried carving out time and studying on my own once before and it hadn't gone well, but this decision depends on your personal style. I too dreaded tons of rote memorization in medical school, but that really hasn't been my experience so far. Yes, you have to learn the anatomy terms and drug names but I feel like they do put things in context and that it hasn't been that crazy. Best of luck!

 

[PhDGradStu]

Go for it!!

Obsolete Logic, I completely see your reasoning on this. I'm also inspired by you and the many others that are facing this decision.

I too find myself in a similar situation. I'm a third year doing my Quals in neuroscience this spring. With the funding cuts to the NIH, we are finding grant money much more competitive. Some publications now demand a fee ($300-$800) that my public university cannot afford to help out with.

I want to do research as well, and I feel that contact with patients would give me greater access to populations that I cannot find with academic recruitment.

Thank you for your post.

 

[Scottish Chap]

You'll be 40 irrespective of what you choose to do in life. Sometimes, it takes graduate school to know what you really want. Just be sure you're not thinking about medicine just because you're disillusioned with what you're doing now. Just as you think you know yourself and you have reached an equilibrium in life, medical school will upset it, and residency will beat a lot of the humanity out of you.

I was 28 when I started medical school and 39 when I started my first attending position (2 years ago today, actually). Consider this a 10 year commitment. You might also change your mind along the way, too, and being on call a lot will change how you view American healthcare, I promise. Most of us are unsatisfied with our life in the end if this is where you spend most of your time; family, people, and experiences matter so much more. It took caring for people in life and death situations for a few years for me to get that. It's a job. I swore I'd never go back to research when I started medical school, yet investigation is a major part of what I do now (I have a lab, acute care cardiology the rest of the time). Best of luck, and be strong.

I'm currently a third year PhD student at a state school in the department of Chemistry. I'm in the Inorganic division, and my research deals strongly with electrochemistry and the investigation of systems that relate to important energy transformations (hydrogen evolution, CO2 reduction). I have a growing publishing record in journals that are considered higher or top tier in my field (and a submission for Science in the coming year).

I graduated with my undergraduate degree in Biochemistry (with three+ years of research experience there) from a different state school in 2015 (3.3 GPA, 3.6 in the sciences) and meet all the course requirements to attend medical school.

Recently, in the last three months or so, I've really begun to regret my decision not to apply to medical school at the end of my undergraduate. The practice of medicine and the topics it deals with the intersection of (physiology, human anatomy, biochemistry, etc.) have always been of great interest to me and I am seriously considering applying to medical school after completing my degree.

The more I think about it, the more sure I am of the choice. I'm doing well in my program and for the most part I enjoy my day-to-day work in science, but there is something about my career trajectory that leaves me unsatisfied. Prior to thinking about medical school I had no plans on trying to start an academic career, and now the prospect of working in an indsutrial setting is beginning to dawn on me. Maybe it's cliche, but I want more out of my interest in science and more out of my education than a few publications and a career in a corporation making money for a company. I want my training and my skills to have a more immediate and direct impact on people, and I know that I could dedicate myself fully and completely to doing so through the practice of medicine.

I'm about to take my oral examination in the spring (it's a lot like qualifying exams if there are others out there who have done their PhD before MD). I have considered mastering out, but the time it would take me to finish what's left here and write a thesis would only "save" me a year of time in graduate school.

I will be 29 (almost 30) when I graduate with my PhD, if things proceed as planned (and I suspect they will). Additionally, I'm in a long-term committed relationship with someone who is a law student (graduating in the spring and with a job at the state level). Am I crazy to be considering this? I recognize I am signing away most of my thirties to a second higher-level education, and that I can expect to come out of it with a lot of debt, but that and even the fact that most people I've talked to don't support the idea haven't completely deterred me yet.

I am seeking clinical volunteering and shadowing opportunities over the next two years so I can be sure (during which I can always change my mind and only have lost the time it took to help) even though balancing that with a high-intensity and demanding PhD program is going to be difficult. I also plan on taking the MCAT after a very thorough amount of time spent on preparation, and intend to get a good score on the exam prior to defending my dissertation.

Is there anyone out there with experience going the PhD-to-MD route that could weigh in on this? I know that there have been discussions by users like me before, but I am seeking advice on my specific situation.

Did you find that pursuing your interests was worth the financial burden and the loss of a lot of time? Do you ever feel that your training in your PhD program is wasted by your change in career? Am I too old and too separated from medical work to be considered by most programs (even with a good MCAT)?

Thank you for any time spent on response.

 

[Scottish Chap]

You'd be surprised that it doesn't matter. Partnering with a physician who appreciates and understands research, but perhaps lacks your skillset will place you at no less of a disadvantage as a PhD, trust me. The only two advantages I found (I was a basic research PhD/postdoc before MD) are: 1. I now ask better scientific questions because I know the lesions in my diseases as a specialist first-hand. 2. I can draw blood myself so don't need to hire/train/pay for anyone. Read the book Rigor Mortis by Richard Harris for a sobering account of US medical research. Most basic science does not go anywhere (burning billions of dollars on the way) because we're not asking the right questions, and animal models fundamentally do not replicate human disease in the way we hope/tell grant funding agencies. Took me 18 years to acknowledge that.

Go for it!!

Obsolete Logic, I completely see your reasoning on this. I'm also inspired by you and the many others that are facing this decision.

I too find myself in a similar situation. I'm a third year doing my Quals in neuroscience this spring. With the funding cuts to the NIH, we are finding grant money much more competitive. Some publications now demand a fee ($300-$800) that my public university cannot afford to help out with.

I want to do research as well, and I feel that contact with patients would give me greater access to populations that I cannot find with academic recruitment.

Thank you for your post.

 

[deleted382095]

You need to make sure it is for you, my buddy finished his MD/ Ph.D. program in Texas but did not complete his residency because he realized medicine was not for him. He recently enlisted as an electronic tech in the Navy and is so much happier than ever. Being a physician, you kinda have a target behind your back and you will get sued by patients for the ridiculous reasons.

I'm a Chemistry Ph.D. and graduated in 2016, and now I teach at the high school level to polish and enhance my interpersonal skills because you will need to learn how to deal and handle a WIDE range of difficult people lol

 

[Ed05]

I'm currently a third year PhD student at a state school in the department of Chemistry. I'm in the Inorganic division, and my research deals strongly with electrochemistry and the investigation of systems that relate to important energy transformations (hydrogen evolution, CO2 reduction). I have a growing publishing record in journals that are considered higher or top tier in my field (and a submission for Science in the coming year).

I graduated with my undergraduate degree in Biochemistry (with three+ years of research experience there) from a different state school in 2015 (3.3 GPA, 3.6 in the sciences) and meet all the course requirements to attend medical school.

Recently, in the last three months or so, I've really begun to regret my decision not to apply to medical school at the end of my undergraduate. The practice of medicine and the topics it deals with the intersection of (physiology, human anatomy, biochemistry, etc.) have always been of great interest to me and I am seriously considering applying to medical school after completing my degree.

The more I think about it, the more sure I am of the choice. I'm doing well in my program and for the most part I enjoy my day-to-day work in science, but there is something about my career trajectory that leaves me unsatisfied. Prior to thinking about medical school I had no plans on trying to start an academic career, and now the prospect of working in an indsutrial setting is beginning to dawn on me. Maybe it's cliche, but I want more out of my interest in science and more out of my education than a few publications and a career in a corporation making money for a company. I want my training and my skills to have a more immediate and direct impact on people, and I know that I could dedicate myself fully and completely to doing so through the practice of medicine.

I'm about to take my oral examination in the spring (it's a lot like qualifying exams if there are others out there who have done their PhD before MD). I have considered mastering out, but the time it would take me to finish what's left here and write a thesis would only "save" me a year of time in graduate school.

I will be 29 (almost 30) when I graduate with my PhD, if things proceed as planned (and I suspect they will). Additionally, I'm in a long-term committed relationship with someone who is a law student (graduating in the spring and with a job at the state level). Am I crazy to be considering this? I recognize I am signing away most of my thirties to a second higher-level education, and that I can expect to come out of it with a lot of debt, but that and even the fact that most people I've talked to don't support the idea haven't completely deterred me yet.

I am seeking clinical volunteering and shadowing opportunities over the next two years so I can be sure (during which I can always change my mind and only have lost the time it took to help) even though balancing that with a high-intensity and demanding PhD program is going to be difficult. I also plan on taking the MCAT after a very thorough amount of time spent on preparation, and intend to get a good score on the exam prior to defending my dissertation.

Is there anyone out there with experience going the PhD-to-MD route that could weigh in on this? I know that there have been discussions by users like me before, but I am seeking advice on my specific situation.

Did you find that pursuing your interests was worth the financial burden and the loss of a lot of time? Do you ever feel that your training in your PhD program is wasted by your change in career? Am I too old and too separated from medical work to be considered by most programs (even with a good MCAT)?

Thank you for any time spent on response.

ObsoleteLogic,

Go for it! It seems like your undergraduate credentials with your PhD will make up for a good resume for medical school pending your MCAT scores. I am currently in the same boat. Recently completed a PhD/MPH in Environmental Health Sciences (29 by the time I defended) and prepping to take the MCAT in April/May. I have come across a few PhD to MDs and they all the said the same thing about going this route:

1) It is the hardest & most expensive route
2) You will most likely be questioned by medical schools during the interview why after spending so much time in your PhD do you want to pursue your MD degree
3) You may not see the financial gain now but this route like other graduate school degrees is about delayed gratification and will pay-off in the long run
4) It is a marathon not a race

One of the PhDs to MDs I met did a PhD, a four year post doc, med school, and now is in neurosurgery residency (prob going to be around mid-40s when he is deemed an attending), so age as they say is just a number. Hopefully this helped your perspective out a little bit and good luck!