Considering Plans for Med School (Yay or Nay)

[Ceke2002]

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I know this should probably go in one of the 'What are my chances' forums, but I feel like you guys have gotten to know me a little better in here. I'm starting to edge a lot closer towards making some serious considerations as to whether or not I set any plans in motion with regards to potentially studying medicine. If I was to go ahead my plan would be to apply for an undergraduate degree first, and then continue on to medicine as Post Grad. This is pretty much the only option open to me at this time. At this time I'm unsure/undecided as to what undergrad studies would be best for me to undertake - something I am interested in, probably in the arts field, that would afford be a greater chance of receiving a higher final grade over all, or something I might have to work a little harder at, but that might serve as a better transition into medicine (opinions on this will be gladly accepted).

Now for a list of Pros and Cons:

Pros

• This is something I've wanted since High School, so I'm extremely motivated.
• I have a strong interest not just in helping people but in understanding the intricacies of the human body.
• I am able to learn new concepts at a fairly fast pace.
• My Psychiatrist is fully on board with the idea and prepared to offer support and guidance.
• I don't consider my age (almost 42) to be a mitigating factor, seeing as there are students entering medicine for the first time at ages 50 and above.
• There is a successfully employed Surgeon in my State who is also diagnosed with Schizophrenia, therefore I don't feel as if having a diagnosis of mental illness is necessarily going to be a barrier to medical studies, as long as that illness is well controlled and stable.

Cons

• Right now I'm not sure if I would be stable enough mentally to undergo the stress of University level studies.
• My husband is not supportive of the idea, as he feels with my mind being more arts focused that I would struggle with the scientific requirements of medical school.
• Whilst I am good at understanding biological science, I have little to no exposure to or grasp of Chemistry, or Physics. Plus I absolutely suck at Maths beyond just basic arithmetic.
• My living situation is potentially in flux as we may be moving interstate at some point if an opportunity comes up with my husband's work. This is not a definite, but it has to at least be a consideration.
• Whilst I can defer payment of course fees until I am employed and have a reached a certain taxable threshold, there are still some fees that will need to be paid up front, including things like text books and other course requirements. I'm not sure if we can afford this, at least not until we are in a better financial position.

My Psychiatrist is a senior lecturer at one of the medical schools here, so I'm thinking of asking if it would be possible for me to sit in on a few lectures just to get some sort of real world insight into the study of medicine (as opposed to what I'm perhaps imagining it might be like). Obviously I'm not sure if this is a doable option with regards to Doctor/patient boundaries and any rules the University has in place regarding non students attending lectures.

So advice, feedback, opinions, bitch slap some sense into me, hit me up with a clue by four, etc etc.

 

[Nasrudin]

You're 42. And you'll have to baby step up your math game. Get a degree. Do extremely well. Nail an MCAT. Beat the normal odds. Beat the stigma of mental illness. Beat the discrimination of age.

There's no need to advance on your position. (Love the meme).

You can always gain something from getting an education. And see where it takes you. There's plenty of work in mental health that doesn't require an MD.

The vast majority of bright energetic young people aren't cut out for this.

Whoever told you age isn't a factor was blowing sunshine up your @ss. Even if it wasn't a selection problem. And it will be. It's still not a good idea in the best of cases to be a 50 year old intern. This from a mentally hardy and resilient 40 year old intern. I'm too old for this ****!

 

[Ceke2002]

You can always gain something from getting an education. And see where it takes you. There's plenty of work in mental health that doesn't require an MD....Whoever told you age isn't a factor was blowing sunshine up your @ss. Even if it wasn't a selection problem. And it will be. It's still not a good idea in the best of cases to be a 50 year old intern. This from a mentally hardy and resilient 40 year old intern. I'm too old for this ****!

I like this, thank you. I don't think I want to become too fixated on 'it's medicine or it's nothing'. I am willing to be adaptable. I know my Psychiatrist has said even if I don't get into medicine, there's always the challenge/achievement of furthering academic studies to be looked on as a positive.

As for the age thing, I did think it would be an issue at first, but then I kept hearing about non traditional students who had been accepted at even older ages and were doing fine with their studies so it made me rethink that perhaps I was putting more emphasis on age than perhaps I should have been. I can see though it you're competing for positions against younger students who are in the prime of their career lives, that could put a distinct dampener on things.

This is the sort of stuff I really want to consider, and go through, before I go off half-cocked.

 

[TexasPhysician]

Assuming the academics is no problem, you will be a resident in psychiatry in your early 50's right? Most psych residencies will have some weeks of 60-90 hours of work. Plus you are taking loans out for all of your schooling? Now mid-50's with debt requiring years of work to repay.

The question I'd ask myself is - Is this journey worth it?

For comparison, a physician assistant friend had 3 years of PA school to my 4 of med school. He then made 100k when I paid another 25k in tuition. Throughout 4 years of psych residency, he made 100k to the average resident's 50k while working fewer hours. When we are both finished and the psychiatrist enters the job market, he will be behind 325k not including interest or investment income from the PA.

Is the satisfaction you receive and years of potential working worth the longer journey? That is subjective math only you can answer.

 

[Red Beard]

I like psychiatry, and I was "only" 36 when I finished residency, but sometimes I think I shouldn't have taken on all this debt (350k now with interest) to get here. That money was just for med school, not for undergrad. That's a house I can never live in or sell, makes it hard to buy a REAL house for my wife and unborn son. The debt makes me feel very tied down, restricted. You will be in your mid 50s minimum when you come out of residency. If you don't already have some money put away, and you have to borrow for undergrad and med school, you might have a very difficult time of it financially for the rest of your life. Not saying that you couldn't make it through the process from an emotional, intellectual, or physical stamina standpoint, just pointing out something that people tend to minimize or overlook (like I did) when they start thinking about going to medical school.

 

[notdeadyet]

Ceke- much of your worries are so far out there as to be purely theoretical at this point.

If you want to go to college and feel this would be satisfying, go for it. Study what you love for the sake of education and take prerequisites as you go. If you struggle to succeed in basic undergrad science classes, you'll know med school probably isn't in the cards, but at least you'll be on path to any number of satisfying careers in mental health (almost all of which will require at least a bachelors degree). If you end up doing well in the science classes and still want to pursue medicine, you can come back in a few years and ask more specific questions.

You will be better served posting this stuff in the non-trad forum. If you can get into med school and graduate, you can get a psych residency. The first hurdle is the hardest and the non-trad forums will have much more experience than folks here.

Incidentally, I was a very late arrival to med school and was another 40something intern. I was not the oldest med student in my class. It's an uphill battle, but you'll never find out if you can handle the incline without taking the first steps. And even if you can't, the path leads to lots of interesting places along the way. Psychologist, therapist, counsellor, or just the lifelong benefits of structured education. No harm in starting. It's not all in until you write the first check for med school....

 

[vistaril]

Assuming the academics is no problem, you will be a resident in psychiatry in your early 50's right? Most psych residencies will have some weeks of 60-90 hours of work. QUOTE]

Lmao...most psych residencies do not require anything close to that. 25-30 hrs/wk is common at several programs I'm familiar with after pgy1 year.

That said, the op should obviously not pursue this. It would be delusional to do so.

 

[splik]

Ceke is in australia - they are quite civilized there and you don't hear of doctors working as crazy hours as in the US and the culture of medicine is a lot more civilized. The tuition fees aren't as exorbitant (in fact they are comparatively very reasonable), and there are no residency programs (what they call residency is nothing like what residency is in the US and is followed by several years being a registrar which is a bit more like residency but still heavily service-oriented)

I think it is a shame Australia appears to going down the path of turning medicine into a postgraduate degree and in many cases switching over from the MB BS to the MD for what appears mostly due to greed and a wish to cash in American students who seek to go down under to pursue their medical education. I would only go to medical school if you are able to go the undergraduate route and not have to get another degree first. It's not worth it, and much harder to see the endgame (whatever that might be) otherwise. Medicine is for the young, it is much, much harder to get through medical school and then postgraduate training when you're in your 5th and 6th decades of life and you basically have to retire a few years after you become a consultant. Some people will claim that one can practice psychiatry well into old age, but that doesn't mean you should (every psychiatrist I know over the age of 65 including some fairly notable/highly regarded ones and still practicing should IMO have their licenses taken away from them, everyone knows they are past it but they persist) and there is a vast difference between continuing in a career after 40 years, to just starting out when it's time to collect your pension.

Formal education is overrated. I would look into sitting in on lectures at the medical school. No one will notice if you just turn up most likely. There are also all sort of online courses one can do for free. You could even see if you could sit in on the local psychiatry registrar teaching If you feel stable enough you could consider doing some training in psychotherapy.

I don't want to sound ungrateful for the opportunities I have had in terms of education, but I have an enduring sense that I am wasting away the best years of my life in residency. I can think of few things worse than being an intern or junior house officer at 50, which would be how old you would likely be at a minimum were you to follow the route you describe. While the experience is undoubtedly more positive in Australia than in the US or UK it will undoubtedly change you for the worse. Medical education never made anyone more interesting, and it certainly didn't make anyone more human, empathic, creative, innovative or freethinking. You may find there are other ways of meeting your curiosity for further knowledge, and better ways to help others what with your unique background and personal experiences.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Some people will claim that one can practice psychiatry well into old age, but that doesn't mean you should (every psychiatrist I know over the age of 65 including some fairly notable/highly regarded ones and still practicing should IMO have their licenses taken away from them, everyone knows they are past it but they persist) and there is a vast difference between continuing in a career after 40 years, to just starting out when it's time to collect your pension.

This statement seems a bit extreme. People out of training for several years can be pretty out of touch with things like medications, but I don't think they're so incompetent that they should lose their license. Perhaps particularly egotistical older docs are the scary ones because they're unwilling to update their knowledge, although yeah, we get worse at learning as we age. However, I think many (perhaps most) psychiatrists can safety practice past 65, which really isn't that old of an age.

Now, on the other hand, I would not go to medical school in my 40s. I'm about the same age as Red Beard and with him in terms of feelings (and overall debt -- that interest is a b*tch). Of course Ceke is Australian, so I have no clue.

 

[Ceke2002]

Thank you all for your advice and considered opinions. You've given me a lot to think about. I will admit because of my age I do feel like it's coming up to crunch time where I either make a commitment and set things in motion, or I forget about medicine all together. As I said to Nasrudin, that's not to say though that I wouldn't consider other paths. I have pretty much mentally set myself a deadline of next year to start Undergrad, which would mean I'd be applying for Medicine in 2018. I'm seeing my Psychiatrist in a couple of weeks time for a treatment session, so I might see if we can arrange another time to just sit down and go through all this properly and actually make up a concrete plan, including other options/pathways to study. I'll try to respond to people's thoughts, etc, more individually when I'm not currently shoving Vicks up my nose and looking to crawl back into bed (I haz a cold *sniffle sniffle*)

By the way, Vistaril, I have ideations not delusions, but thanks for playing. 😉

 

[Ceke2002]

Assuming the academics is no problem, you will be a resident in psychiatry in your early 50's right? Most psych residencies will have some weeks of 60-90 hours of work. Plus you are taking loans out for all of your schooling? Now mid-50's with debt requiring years of work to repay.

The question I'd ask myself is - Is this journey worth it?

For comparison, a physician assistant friend had 3 years of PA school to my 4 of med school. He then made 100k when I paid another 25k in tuition. Throughout 4 years of psych residency, he made 100k to the average resident's 50k while working fewer hours. When we are both finished and the psychiatrist enters the job market, he will be behind 325k not including interest or investment income from the PA.

Is the satisfaction you receive and years of potential working worth the longer journey? That is subjective math only you can answer.

And therein lies the rub, I feel like it's a catch 22 situation, because I may not really know if the journey is worth it until I set out on the path - but then again I don't want to waste time and money only to get part way through the journey and realise expectations aren't what I thought they might be. Hence my putting perhaps a little too much thought into this. To be honest I don't know if I'm really interested in the money part, the earning of I mean. I'm not really sure if this is something I want to do in terms of employment prospects, or if I just want to study medicine for the acquirement of knowledge for its own sake - to be honest I'm leaning much further towards the latter. But then another question I have to ask is do I then have the right to take away another student's placement in a course, who may go on to actually become a contributing member of the Physician community.

 

[Ceke2002]

I like psychiatry, and I was "only" 36 when I finished residency, but sometimes I think I shouldn't have taken on all this debt (350k now with interest) to get here. That money was just for med school, not for undergrad. That's a house I can never live in or sell, makes it hard to buy a REAL house for my wife and unborn son. The debt makes me feel very tied down, restricted. You will be in your mid 50s minimum when you come out of residency. If you don't already have some money put away, and you have to borrow for undergrad and med school, you might have a very difficult time of it financially for the rest of your life. Not saying that you couldn't make it through the process from an emotional, intellectual, or physical stamina standpoint, just pointing out something that people tend to minimize or overlook (like I did) when they start thinking about going to medical school.

Finances are definitely a consideration. Right now, owing to my not currently being able to work (and not having access to programs that might return me to the workforce) we are living as a single income household, which pretty much means we live pay cheque to pay cheque. I know I can defer payment of course fees as I indicated, but there's still other costs that would need to be paid up front and that is something I'd have to give very careful thought to. I'm married, and my marriage is a definite partnership, so I'd also have to take into account the effect of any financial constraints on my spouse as well, and not just on myself.

 

[Ceke2002]

Ceke- much of your worries are so far out there as to be purely theoretical at this point.

If you want to go to college and feel this would be satisfying, go for it. Study what you love for the sake of education and take prerequisites as you go. If you struggle to succeed in basic undergrad science classes, you'll know med school probably isn't in the cards, but at least you'll be on path to any number of satisfying careers in mental health (almost all of which will require at least a bachelors degree). If you end up doing well in the science classes and still want to pursue medicine, you can come back in a few years and ask more specific questions.

You will be better served posting this stuff in the non-trad forum. If you can get into med school and graduate, you can get a psych residency. The first hurdle is the hardest and the non-trad forums will have much more experience than folks here.

Incidentally, I was a very late arrival to med school and was another 40something intern. I was not the oldest med student in my class. It's an uphill battle, but you'll never find out if you can handle the incline without taking the first steps. And even if you can't, the path leads to lots of interesting places along the way. Psychologist, therapist, counsellor, or just the lifelong benefits of structured education. No harm in starting. It's not all in until you write the first check for med school....

I honestly don't have a lot of response to this, you seem to have articulated my own thought processes particularly well. *Eyeballs* You sure you don't have a sideline in mind reading. 😵 Just kidding, thanks for the very insightful reply, it has helped to clarify many of my thoughts which admittedly were perhaps a tad all over the place at the time of initial posting (so much to consider, so many theoretical possibilities to answer, I do have a tendency to over think things sometimes - not sure if that's a good or bad thing, perhaps a bit of both depending on the situation).

 

[Ceke2002]

Ceke is in australia - they are quite civilized there and you don't hear of doctors working as crazy hours as in the US and the culture of medicine is a lot more civilized. The tuition fees aren't as exorbitant (in fact they are comparatively very reasonable), and there are no residency programs (what they call residency is nothing like what residency is in the US and is followed by several years being a registrar which is a bit more like residency but still heavily service-oriented)

I think it is a shame Australia appears to going down the path of turning medicine into a postgraduate degree and in many cases switching over from the MB BS to the MD for what appears mostly due to greed and a wish to cash in American students who seek to go down under to pursue their medical education. I would only go to medical school if you are able to go the undergraduate route and not have to get another degree first. It's not worth it, and much harder to see the endgame (whatever that might be) otherwise. Medicine is for the young, it is much, much harder to get through medical school and then postgraduate training when you're in your 5th and 6th decades of life and you basically have to retire a few years after you become a consultant. Some people will claim that one can practice psychiatry well into old age, but that doesn't mean you should (every psychiatrist I know over the age of 65 including some fairly notable/highly regarded ones and still practicing should IMO have their licenses taken away from them, everyone knows they are past it but they persist) and there is a vast difference between continuing in a career after 40 years, to just starting out when it's time to collect your pension.

Formal education is overrated. I would look into sitting in on lectures at the medical school. No one will notice if you just turn up most likely. There are also all sort of online courses one can do for free. You could even see if you could sit in on the local psychiatry registrar teaching If you feel stable enough you could consider doing some training in psychotherapy.

I don't want to sound ungrateful for the opportunities I have had in terms of education, but I have an enduring sense that I am wasting away the best years of my life in residency. I can think of few things worse than being an intern or junior house officer at 50, which would be how old you would likely be at a minimum were you to follow the route you describe. While the experience is undoubtedly more positive in Australia than in the US or UK it will undoubtedly change you for the worse. Medical education never made anyone more interesting, and it certainly didn't make anyone more human, empathic, creative, innovative or freethinking. You may find there are other ways of meeting your curiosity for further knowledge, and better ways to help others what with your unique background and personal experiences.

In terms of Post Grad vs Undergrad entry to medicine, in terms of length of studies required there's really not that much difference, nor do I expect the same could be said financially (although don't take my word for that I'd have to double check to be sure). With Undergrad entrance the entire course is 6 years plus then what ever requirements as a registrar are necessary (I must admit that's where my knowledge fails me somewhat) - in terms of Post Grad studies it's 3 years Undergrad plus 4 years Post Grad for a total of 7 years, so only a years difference between the two modalities. Undergraduate entrance is not an option for me, so it's Post Grad or nothing. I don't profess to know much about the system of changes in medical studies as it pertains to Australian Universities so I can't comment on the specifics of that. I can certainly see your point about medical education not making anyone more with regard to what you listed. To be honest I don't think I'm looking to become more interesting, more human, more whatever else, I just have a thirst for knowledge, and medicine fascinates me, the working of the human body fascinates me, the intricacies of the brain and human emotion and experience fascinates me. I feel like I want to delve into all there is to learn, and then delve some more.

As I have mentioned in previous comments my Psychiatrist is a senior lecturer (amongst other things education related in regards to bringing on new Doctors) so I'm kind of starting to think he is the best person to discuss this with more at length. We have built up an excellent relationship over the years (a therapeutic relationship, just to clarify) and I know he has a lot of insight and ideas into not only the study of medicine itself, but the mental health system overall and the services that are needed. I can't really give more info than that without potentially outing his identity. I do know he is at least on board, and supportive of the idea of my going into medical studies. He has said he thinks I'd make a fine Doctor, and that he'd be more than happy to work alongside me as a colleague, but apart from that we haven't really discussed the nitty gritty details beyond the basic idea.

 

[Oconnor]

You're in Australia - all this talk of cost of medical school is a non-issue compared to people in the US.

Post-grad medicine is a fraction of the cost of the fees. I don't know what it's called now with all these name changes - HECS-HELP I think? - but it's approximately $10,000 per year which can be deferred with indexation to CPI. This gives you a debt of $40,000 when you finish which can be deferred if you never start working. Text books can be borrowed from the library, bought on Gumtree or accessed on the internet via your institution library or hospital for free.

Besides, with all the medical schools opening now it seems like a breeze for people to get in. Despite you thinking postgrad is the only option, I have met plenty of mature age/post-grad students who did undergraduate medicine in UNSW, UWS, Newcastle University etc so you can basically apply for any spot in the country.

The real problem is finding jobs once you finish residency/PGY2. If you want to do psychiatry, though, it's still taking all-comers so I wouldn't worry too much about that. The other benefit of having so many interns graduating out of medical school is that overtime is minimal, evening shifts are rostered in week blocks with late starts and people desperate for money will take all your overtime that you do not want. I met an intern who did not do a single weekend shift for 8 months after starting internship.

I did undergraduate medicine with a mature age student who I guessed was about 60 years old. She never finished medical school as far as I am aware, but she did give it a good shot.

 

[slappy]

Some people will claim that one can practice psychiatry well into old age, but that doesn't mean you should (every psychiatrist I know over the age of 65 including some fairly notable/highly regarded ones and still practicing should IMO have their licenses taken away from them, everyone knows they are past it but they persist) and there is a vast difference between continuing in a career after 40 years, to just starting out when it's time to collect your pension.

I agree that this is a bit extreme. I know of far too many psychiatrists well over the age of 65 who are fantastic at what they do, especially with psychotherapy.

 

[notdeadyet]

Some people will claim that one can practice psychiatry well into old age, but that doesn't mean you should (every psychiatrist I know over the age of 65 including some fairly notable/highly regarded ones and still practicing should IMO have their licenses taken away from them, everyone knows they are past it but they persist)

Then you need to start hanging around better psychiatrists. If everyone over 65 at your residency is actually useless, it may be a reflection either of you (and bias towards age) or your individual program. I think you'll find at many that there are a lot of good psychiatrists with great clinical expertise and much to teach.

The "medicine is for the young" notion is woefully wrong for all of medicine but especially for something like psychiatry. Psychiatrists that don't see the value of life experience or wisdom are likely doing it poorly.

 

[K9friend]

Hi Ceke,

I have some personal experience with this subject and just PM-ed you--well, I clicked on "started a conversation" and addressed the conversation to you--not sure if that is the same as PM on this site. Feel free to reply if you are comfortable!

Best Wishes,
K9friend