Consult handwriting

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ferroportin

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Senior residents and attendings: what's the etiquette with regard to consult notes? If I am a resident and a consultant leaves an illegible note (which, let's be honest, is most of the time), is it okay to call or page them back? What if it happens every time? Any suggestions?
 
ferroportin said:
Senior residents and attendings: what's the etiquette with regard to consult notes? If I am a resident and a consultant leaves an illegible note (which, let's be honest, is most of the time), is it okay to call or page them back? What if it happens every time? Any suggestions?
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Try your best to interpret the scribbles. If truly illegible, then yes, page them.
 
Gastrapathy said:
If you don't really need to know right away, wait for the dictation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Reasonable, but not every place has dictated/typed consult notes. And even those that do, only the initial is usually dictated; the follow-up notes are still handwritten only. Unless you're fortune enough to work at a place that's full EMR, of course.
 
I'm wondering what horrible planet you're living on where there are still handwritten notes? I have privileges at 8 (count 'em...8) different hospitals and none of them use paper charts.

1994 called and they want their documentation system back.
 
gutonc said:
I'm wondering what horrible planet you're living on where there are still handwritten notes? I have privileges at 8 (count 'em...8) different hospitals and none of them use paper charts.

1994 called and they want their documentation system back.
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you're lucky…still plenty of places with written notes (and written orders)…usually the places that are all EMR are the private community hospitals….the academic places don't seem to see the value in changing things…

as a consult, they should be paging you with their recs so you don't have to rely on the notes…

if you can't read the note, call them...
 
Ask the HUC to help read the note. Often time since they process the orders, they have learned to interpret handwriting of the doctors who frequent the unit. The more senior nurses can also be helpful in this regard.
 
gutonc said:
I'm wondering what horrible planet you're living on where there are still handwritten notes? I have privileges at 8 (count 'em...8) different hospitals and none of them use paper charts.
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Oh, believe me, they exist. I'm from NY, where most places still have handwritten notes. Hell, I've even worked at one hospital that had handwritten orders (yes, if someone accidentally put the chart back in the rack, no med changes would happen for that patient that day). The NYC public hospitals / HHC are just now starting to switch to Epic. When I interviewed at Robert Wood nearby, they didn't have full EMRs either.

1994 called and they want their documentation system back.
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You have no idea how much I agree. In some really fancy hospitals I've worked in, they have marble lobbies and expensive paintings on the walls, and still use paper charts and pagers. Shows you where the priorities are.
 
If you can't read it call them. You should be able to talk to the docs you consult and discuss patients. At my hospital we have a great relationship with all the attending and they encourage us to talk to them about our patients. It is one way you will learn. We are still on paper charts with computer orders for 1 more week then going to epic. If you are the resident who left a horribly written note and another resident calls you to ask do not bite their head off for it, especially if you are a new intern in July (it was a surgery intern).
 
drcrispmd said:
If you can't read it call them. You should be able to talk to the docs you consult and discuss patients. At my hospital we have a great relationship with all the attending and they encourage us to talk to them about our patients. It is one way you will learn. We are still on paper charts with computer orders for 1 more week then going to epic. If you are the resident who left a horribly written note and another resident calls you to ask do not bite their head off for it, especially if you are a new intern in July (it was a surgery intern).
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Oh, I'm in total agreement with you, but I was asking if anyone had any tips when attendings don't act like they should.
I was once on a Cardio consult service. The attending I was under would painstakingly carve his hieroglyphics onto the progress note page. As pretty as his handwriting was, it was totally inscrutable. And then he'd get pissed when the IM resident called for a verbal reiteration.
Personally, my handwriting isn't great, but I can make it legible. So I always slow down when I get to the A/P portion of the note, since that's what people actually read.
 
ferroportin said:
Oh, believe me, they exist. I'm from NY, where most places still have handwritten notes. Hell, I've even worked at one hospital that had handwritten orders (yes, if someone accidentally put the chart back in the rack, no med changes would happen for that patient that day). The NYC public hospitals / HHC are just now starting to switch to Epic. When I interviewed at Robert Wood nearby, they didn't have full EMRs either.
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I went to school in NYC so I remember that. But it's been 8 years since I left (and haven't once looked back longingly) so I just kind of figured they would have entered the 21st century by now.
 
This is why I didn't rank any program that didn't have a full EMR. Life's too short to sit there parsing indecipherable consult notes (and I did plenty of this as a medical student). The only part of Obamacare I actually like is the part that gives incentives for EMR use.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
This is why I didn't rank any program that didn't have a full EMR. Life's too short to sit there parsing indecipherable consult notes (and I did plenty of this as a medical student). The only part of Obamacare I actually like is the part that gives incentives for EMR use.
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to be fair…the primary team isn't immune to bad penmanship...
 
We still have written notes. I prefer typing notes, since I can type a SOAP note/H+P 100 times faster than writing. Then again, if everything was electronic, it'd be choatic fighting for a computer. And I'm a guy who HATES battling with crappy computer systems. Unless the EMR is very user friendly. I can write a bunch of orders in seconds by hand, but hate ordering things in the computer where it sometimes takes a minute to properly type what I want >_<
 
gutonc said:
I went to school in NYC so I remember that. But it's been 8 years since I left (and haven't once looked back longingly) so I just kind of figured they would have entered the 21st century by now.
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My internship is in the Philly area and we still have fully paper charts/notes/orders. It is antiquated, inefficient, and leads to substandard patient care in many cases when nurses didn't see new orders put in, no one can read certain peoples handwriting, etc. It really is time everyone moved into the 21st century and embraced the computer fad.
 
At my hospital, orders are computerized, and we generally dictate our H&Ps, consults, and discharge summaries. But progress notes are still handwritten.
 
Top Gun said:
At my hospital, orders are computerized, and we generally dictate our H&Ps, consults, and discharge summaries. But progress notes are still handwritten.
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That is how my hospital is.....until Sunday at 3am and we go live with Epic. Just love learning a system I will use 1 day (Monday is my last day in the hospital ever!).
 
Smurfette said:
Ask the HUC to help read the note. Often time since they process the orders, they have learned to interpret handwriting of the doctors who frequent the unit. The more senior nurses can also be helpful in this regard.
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While these people are often very good at interpreting the lousy handwriting, if they misinterpret the handwriting and you act on that information it's your butt.
If you can't read your consultant's handwriting, call them. Especially if it's in regards to something that can have patient-care ramifications.

Nephrology note: "recommend giving <scribblescribblescribble> of lasix and supplement potassium with <scribblescribble> at a rate of <scribblescribble>."
The unit clerk might read this correctly and give you the right numbers, but how confident would you feel acting on this? And ultimately if you give the patient an inappropriate amount and they have a bad outcome, "I couldn't read the consultant's note" isn't defensible.
 
I used Epic during the vast majority of my training, and then took a job where (for the time being) there is no true EMR. There is a computer system where you can read dictated notes but that's about it. I absolutely, absolutely despise paper charts ("where is the chart? why is the chart always missing? what in the world does this note say? oh great, every single page in the chart has now come loose and they are all over the floor...") and I'm terrible at dictating ("no wait, go back and change that... umm..... wait, what did I just say? which button is rewind?"). In one month the hospital will go live with Epic, and I have been counting down the days. But I have to count down in secret, because literally every other physician here is dreading this. Some of the old-timers are legitimately contemplating retiring a little early in order to avoid learning how to type. I have never heard so much vitriolic belly-aching in all my life. And I just sit there quietly. I can't wait. It can't come soon enough.
 
sacrament said:
I used Epic during the vast majority of my training, and then took a job where (for the time being) there is no true EMR. There is a computer system where you can read dictated notes but that's about it. I absolutely, absolutely despise paper charts ("where is the chart? why is the chart always missing? what in the world does this note say? oh great, every single page in the chart has now come loose and they are all over the floor...") and I'm terrible at dictating ("no wait, go back and change that... umm..... wait, what did I just say? which button is rewind?"). In one month the hospital will go live with Epic, and I have been counting down the days. But I have to count down in secret, because literally every other physician here is dreading this. Some of the old-timers are legitimately contemplating retiring a little early in order to avoid learning how to type. I have never heard so much vitriolic belly-aching in all my life. And I just sit there quietly. I can't wait. It can't come soon enough.
Click to expand...
We're transition to Epic, but it's a 36 month process, meaning I won't see it during my resident time. The satellite hospitals are transitioning first because there are far less people to train. Unfortunately, the inpatient record (Epic) won't be used in the outpatient setting (AllScripts (AWFUL)). All of your complaints resonate with me. I can never find charts and when I do, there's always an attending using it. Hierarchy, FTW, means no chart for me unless I sheepishly ask to at least grab my note out of it for my attending. The other thing with these paper charts is, I always drop at least one on a routine basis, meaning I have to reconstruct the entire thing while I have better things to do. I wish we were going fully electronic tomorrow, but alas, no dice.
 
I hate looking for missing charts too. Plus, in "rush hour" with multiple specialties, pharm, case managers, physical therapy, etc all asking to see charts, it can get hectic...it's like a human zoo.

That's why I like rounding in the early morning or weekends. It's quieter 🙂
 
sacrament said:
and then took a job where (for the time being) there is no true EMR. There is a computer system where you can read dictated notes but that's about it. .
Click to expand...

That's how it is like where I do some weekend psych moonlighting at a general hospital with a psych wing. On the computer system you can read (and sign off on) dictated notes- H and P, consults, discharge summaries; also get lab results. Progress notes and orders are usually hand-written in the chart. I love it. Not looking forward to when the hospital gets a full EMR in about 10 months.
 
sacrament said:
I used Epic during the vast majority of my training, and then took a job where (for the time being) there is no true EMR. There is a computer system where you can read dictated notes but that's about it. I absolutely, absolutely despise paper charts ("where is the chart? why is the chart always missing? what in the world does this note say? oh great, every single page in the chart has now come loose and they are all over the floor...") and I'm terrible at dictating ("no wait, go back and change that... umm..... wait, what did I just say? which button is rewind?"). In one month the hospital will go live with Epic, and I have been counting down the days. But I have to count down in secret, because literally every other physician here is dreading this. Some of the old-timers are legitimately contemplating retiring a little early in order to avoid learning how to type. I have never heard so much vitriolic belly-aching in all my life. And I just sit there quietly. I can't wait. It can't come soon enough.
Click to expand...

Yup. The amount of vitriol older docs hurl at EMRs is something I will never really understand. I also utterly despise paper charts...I would rather use the world's crappiest EMR than deal with 'let's go find the chart'/'let's go wait in line for the chart'/'the pt's in surgery, so now we can't do anything that requires the chart for several hours'/'let's parse this totally indecipherable note'/'let's see the order that never got entered in because somebody re-racked the chart'/etc.

I'm noticing that whenever older docs have issues with paper charts, there is usually a substantial amount of 'computer fear' involved. I think there's also a lot of EMR hatred because many docs produce terrible, incomplete, borderline negligent documentation and EMRs more or less force these people to actually generate somewhat useful/useable notes.
 
dozitgetchahi said:
Yup. The amount of vitriol older docs hurl at EMRs is something I will never really understand. I also utterly despise paper charts...I would rather use the world's crappiest EMR than deal with 'let's go find the chart'/'let's go wait in line for the chart'/'the pt's in surgery, so now we can't do anything that requires the chart for several hours'/'let's parse this totally indecipherable note'/'let's see the order that never got entered in because somebody re-racked the chart'/etc.

I'm noticing that whenever older docs have issues with paper charts, there is usually a substantial amount of 'computer fear' involved. I think there's also a lot of EMR hatred because many docs produce terrible, incomplete, borderline negligent documentation and EMRs more or less force these people to actually generate somewhat useful/useable notes.
Click to expand...

1. In real life (post-residency non-academia), charts are usually available

2. I am certainly not afraid of computers.
3. EMR's transfer much of the work from unit clerks/secretaries/nurses/etc to doctors
4. I have no problem dictating or (occasionally, in the case of progress notes) writing out excellent documentation.


I am 42 and I guess I am an older doc now. It sucks getting old.
 
michaelrack said:
3. EMR's transfer much of the work from unit clerks/secretaries/nurses/etc to doctors.
Click to expand...

Yep, that was the big game they played on us.

I've used EMRs since medical school and am very facile with them. However, IMHO the more "computerized" a hospital becomes the more it tries to offload work onto physicians.

Those pre-op orders that I fill out electronically at my office? I have to enter them myself into the EMR at the hospital; they used to make Pre-Op do it. Now, they won't prep my patient for surgery unless I put in the orders.

Tumor Staging Forms? Now they send me a multi-page document asking me to stage the patient based on their pathology. This despite the fact that the pathology report has the tumor staging right on it. Not good enough, they want me to do it as well.

And speaking of pathology, I used to sign the pathology request form before I left the OR. Now everything's electronic, so it gets put in the EMR, assigned to me to sign (each specimen individually rather than a single form like before), and patients cannot be discharged from the PACU until I've signed those and the post-op note - despite the fact that they might not be ready by the time I'm ready to leave the hospital.

When we merged our practice with another, the EMR was an issue - the other practice was still paper charts. Interestingly enough, it was not the 63 year who had problem with the EMR, it was the set-in-her-ways much younger partner who refuses to learn anymore about the EMR than she absolutely has to. So its not just us old fogies @michaelrack !
 
Don't forget the medication reconciliation. With a paper system, nurses write up a list of the patient's home medications (in clinic typically from the actual bottles that the pt was asked to bring in, otherwise from memory or lists the patient brings in), then the doc would just have to sign off on whether they should be continued or changed. With the EMRs I have seen the doctor is the one who has to enter in every medication for the reconciliation (and god forbid it is a drug not in the computer) then do another series of clicks in order for the medication to continue in house (and hope it doesn't get lost in cyberspace and you find out days later that even though you can see it on the screen, the patient hasn't been getting it).

Don't get me started on pre and post op orders. What takes me under a minute right now (hospitals I work at right now are on paper) becomes 5 minutes of clicking to get to the right screens and select the stuff I want, even if there are departmental order pages (there is no way to just click once for your personal standard orders on the systems I have worked with).
 
dpmd said:
Don't forget the medication reconciliation. With a paper system, nurses write up a list of the patient's home medications (in clinic typically from the actual bottles that the pt was asked to bring in, otherwise from memory or lists the patient brings in), then the doc would just have to sign off on whether they should be continued or changed. With the EMRs I have seen the doctor is the one who has to enter in every medication for the reconciliation (and god forbid it is a drug not in the computer) then do another series of clicks in order for the medication to continue in house (and hope it doesn't get lost in cyberspace and you find out days later that even though you can see it on the screen, the patient hasn't been getting it).
Click to expand...

OMG yes the med recon. Our system allows the pre-op nurses to add in incomplete med info like "Tacrolimus 1 tab PO daily". When I go to do the med recon, I have to find the dose the patient is actually on but since the patient sedated in the PACU they can't help me and the family doesn't know despite being instructed by me and pre-op to bring their meds to the hospital. That and the non formulary stuff (and asking me whether suggested drug X is an acceptable substitution) drives me mad!

Don't get me started on pre and post op orders. What takes me under a minute right now (hospitals I work at right now are on paper) becomes 5 minutes of clicking to get to the right screens and select the stuff I want, even if there are departmental order pages (there is no way to just click once for your personal standard orders on the systems I have worked with).
Click to expand...
I have order sets so that isn't so hard but to be honest the days of preprinted orders which I could just print out and on the chart in Preop when I was talking to the patient were a lot easier. Thank goodness room turnover times suck at these hospitals so I have all this time to get the paperwork done. /sarcasm
 
Winged Scapula said:
OMG yes the med recon. Our system allows the pre-op nurses to add in incomplete med info like "Tacrolimus 1 tab PO daily". When I go to do the med recon, I have to find the dose the patient is actually on but since the patient sedated in the PACU they can't help me and the family doesn't know despite being instructed by me and pre-op to bring their meds to the hospital. That and the non formulary stuff (and asking me whether suggested drug X is an acceptable substitution) drives me mad!
Click to expand...

This has been a huge issue for us since we switched to a new EMR. Before the system made them enter the dose accurately. Now they can just write in stuff like that and of course, since it is easier and they never see the consequences of it, they do.
 
Shikima said:
Already has with computer systems like Epic and CPRS (VA).
Click to expand...
Yes that was my point - dpmd still does a lot of paper chart entry; as I noted above, when our hospitals went to EPIC and other EMRs they no longer took verbal orders (except in emergencies), or pre-op orders (which used to be entered by pre-op staff). I spend more time charting now than I ever did because since I'm not a hospital employee its easier for them to make me do it as a condition of privileges rather than pay their own staff to do it.

In regards to entering pre-op meds, none of my hospitals, including those that use EPIC, are mandating that physicians enter them. They must be reconciled which frankly is harder than entering them when I have to stop every few minutes and find out the correct dose since it wasn't entered in the first place.

Their newest rule is that the Post-Op note must be done before the patient is discharged from the PACU. The Post-Op note that contains no pertinent patient care information that hasn't already been verbally provided to them (e.g., fluid given, blood loss, procedure done) AND written on the Anesthesia note. Yep for some reason that note is vital to patient care and discharge.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Yes that was my point - dpmd still does a lot of paper chart entry; as I noted above, when our hospitals went to EPIC and other EMRs they no longer took verbal orders (except in emergencies), or pre-op orders (which used to be entered by pre-op staff). I spend more time charting now than I ever did because since I'm not a hospital employee its easier for them to make me do it as a condition of privileges rather than pay their own staff to do it.

In regards to entering pre-op meds, none of my hospitals, including those that use EPIC, are mandating that physicians enter them. They must be reconciled which frankly is harder than entering them when I have to stop every few minutes and find out the correct dose since it wasn't entered in the first place.

Their newest rule is that the Post-Op note must be done before the patient is discharged from the PACU. The Post-Op note that contains no pertinent patient care information that hasn't already been verbally provided to them (e.g., fluid given, blood loss, procedure done) AND written on the Anesthesia note. Yep for some reason that note is vital to patient care and discharge.
Click to expand...
It isn't that it is actually needed for discharge. It us just their way of forcing you to do one immediately after surgery which is a requirement for jcaho or something. Where I was before you could paste in an op note from a template (which I do miss now) so I often had my op report done immediately but for some reason they would still sometimes harass me about an immediate post op note. Administrative stupidity at its finest.
 
Winged Scapula said:
Their newest rule is that the Post-Op note must be done before the patient is discharged from the PACU. The Post-Op note that contains no pertinent patient care information that hasn't already been verbally provided to them (e.g., fluid given, blood loss, procedure done) AND written on the Anesthesia note. Yep for some reason that note is vital to patient care and discharge.
Click to expand...

We got that same rule handed to us. Which is awesome at our ambulatory surgical center where the room turnover time is ~10 minutes and the surgeons often stagger rooms. Inevitably don't have time to get to it in between cases and then the PACU starts paging you in the middle of the next case.

dpmd said:
It isn't that it is actually needed for discharge. It us just their way of forcing you to do one immediately after surgery which is a requirement for jcaho or something. Where I was before you could paste in an op note from a template (which I do miss now) so I often had my op report done immediately but for some reason they would still sometimes harass me about an immediate post op note. Administrative stupidity at its finest.
Click to expand...

I thought the JCAHO requirement was for it to be done same day. Could be wrong though.
 
southernIM said:
We got that same rule handed to us. Which is awesome at our ambulatory surgical center where the room turnover time is ~10 minutes and the surgeons often stagger rooms. Inevitably don't have time to get to it in between cases and then the PACU starts paging you in the middle of the next case.

I thought the JCAHO requirement was for it to be done same day. Could be wrong though.
Click to expand...

I believe the JCAHO requirement is for procedure dictations to be done within 24 hours but the post-op written note has to be completed before the patient "moves on to the next level of care", hence their requirement. I'm not sure of how this affects patient safety or makes a hill of beans of difference. It is simply duplication of documentation available elsewhere (my dictated note, the anesthesia note, OR staff note). Fortunately for me, none of the surgery centers seems to be as rigid about these as the hospitals (where I have plenty of time to complete them).
 
Med rec is PAINFUL on a computer system. It's 100x easier with paper sheets and checkmarks and *gasp* writing new meds instead of typing 100 iterations to find it. Putting in orders on computers isn't too bad, but I can write orders in less than 10 secs....
 
Man, I've gotten good at dictating over the past year. If I go back to working at a hospital with a full EMR after residency I don't know that I'll be great at typing admission H and Ps.
 
VenusinFurs said:
Man, I've gotten good at dictating over the past year. If I go back to working at a hospital with a full EMR after residency I don't know that I'll be great at typing admission H and Ps.
Click to expand...

In my limited experience, hospital H and P's and discharge summaries are usually dictated, even with a full EMR. I don't think the amount of dictation decreases with conversion to an EMR. Typing may increase, but this is due to the elimination of hand-written notes.
 
p30doc said:
My internship is in the Philly area and we still have fully paper charts/notes/orders. It is antiquated, inefficient, and leads to substandard patient care in many cases when nurses didn't see new orders put in, no one can read certain peoples handwriting, etc. It really is time everyone moved into the 21st century and embraced the computer fad.
Click to expand...

Wow! I live ~ 1hr west of Philly in Amish country and we have EMR; I can't believe Philly doesn't have EMR.

Ask the more experienced nurses. We are used to deciphering poor penmanship. I have no compunctions about calling a doc whose writing is illegible. It's not my job to figure out what squiggles and dots mean, and I won't jeopardize my license or my patient's safety trying to do so. If I guess wrong, I'm the one who pays for it.
 
Last edited:
Winged Scapula said:
Yep, that was the big game they played on us.

I've used EMRs since medical school and am very facile with them. However, IMHO the more "computerized" a hospital becomes the more it tries to offload work onto physicians.

Those pre-op orders that I fill out electronically at my office? I have to enter them myself into the EMR at the hospital; they used to make Pre-Op do it. Now, they won't prep my patient for surgery unless I put in the orders.

Tumor Staging Forms? Now they send me a multi-page document asking me to stage the patient based on their pathology. This despite the fact that the pathology report has the tumor staging right on it. Not good enough, they want me to do it as well.

And speaking of pathology, I used to sign the pathology request form before I left the OR. Now everything's electronic, so it gets put in the EMR, assigned to me to sign (each specimen individually rather than a single form like before), and patients cannot be discharged from the PACU until I've signed those and the post-op note - despite the fact that they might not be ready by the time I'm ready to leave the hospital.

When we merged our practice with another, the EMR was an issue - the other practice was still paper charts. Interestingly enough, it was not the 63 year who had problem with the EMR, it was the set-in-her-ways much younger partner who refuses to learn anymore about the EMR than she absolutely has to. So its not just us old fogies @michaelrack !
Click to expand...

It used to be, "If it wasn't documented, it wasn't done." Now it's, "If it wasn't documented in duplicate (or triplicate, quadruplicate, etc.), it wasn't done."

On paper, if a patient said s/he had "No pain," I could just draw a zero with a slash through it under the pain assessment. In the EHR, it took clicking through 5 screens to document the patient was pain free. God forbid your patient had pain; that took multiple screens to document the location, type, duration, etc. I finally just started clicking in the section where you could write a note and just typed it all out. Much faster, less frustration, and no one ever said anything to me about it.
 
fab4fan said:
Wow! I live ~ 1hr west of Philly in Amish country and we have EMR; I can't believe Philly doesn't have EMR.

Ask the more experienced nurses. We are used to deciphering poor penmanship. I have no compunctions about calling a doc whose writing is illegible. It's not my job to figure out what squiggles and dots mean, and I won't jeopardize my license or my patient's safety trying to do so. If I guess wrong, I'm the one who pays for it.
Click to expand...
that's because out in amish country you have paying or insured patients and the private community hospital is making money and can just start up with whatever emr they need to outfit their 250-350 bed hospital….unlike the urban hospitals that bleed money and 80% of the pts have no insurance.

plus the bigger academic hospitals have had some sort of emr 25 years ago…and updating or scrapping the old emr for a new one would be an outlay of money in the millions of dollars.
 
michaelrack said:
In my limited experience, hospital H and P's and discharge summaries are usually dictated, even with a full EMR. I don't think the amount of dictation decreases with conversion to an EMR. Typing may increase, but this is due to the elimination of hand-written notes.
Click to expand...

One of the EMRs I worked with as a student involved no dictating for the discharge summary. Not completely sure about the H and Ps though.

I think being able to type daily progress notes is quite helpful.
 
VenusinFurs said:
One of the EMRs I worked with as a student involved no dictating for the discharge summary. Not completely sure about the H and Ps though.

I think being able to type daily progress notes is quite helpful.
Click to expand...

Our EMR builds out the discharge summary with meds/labs/etc auto populating, so it's actually much easier to type it (as all you have to really write is the clinical course).

I think the opposite is true for daily progress notes. I can dictate daily progress notes for our entire service in the time it would take me to type one using the EMR.
 
I would not mind dictating progress notes. I think writing them is dumb.
 
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