Contacting #s 2-5?

[IgM]

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Hey guys,

So I fell hard for my #1 and while I think they liked me too, the reply I got to my "you're my #1" email didn't say "you will be ranked to match."

So this got me thinking about how one goes about contacting their higher number but not #1 programs. I feel like if your post-thank you note contact doesn't say "you're my #1" then a program will obviously notice that.

Do you guys plan on initiating contact with your #s 2-5, and if so, how to do so tactfully? I really would appreciate any responses either from applicants or the recently matched.

 

[DO Anes]

We get those, "You're my #1 choice," thank you notes all the time. We assume they are lying and treat it as irrelevant. The note is a nice courtesy, but has zero impact on the rank order list.

 

[givesmegas]

Hey guys,

So I fell hard for my #1 and while I think they liked me too, the reply I got to my "you're my #1" email didn't say "you will be ranked to match."

So this got me thinking about how one goes about contacting their higher number but not #1 programs. I feel like if your post-thank you note contact doesn't say "you're my #1" then a program will obviously notice that.

Do you guys plan on initiating contact with your #s 2-5, and if so, how to do so tactfully? I really would appreciate any responses either from applicants or the recently matched.

Talked to my dean and pd about this also. The consensus seems to be that the email to your #1 can really only help your situation. However, the nondescript emails that say anything but you're my #1 are usually seen right through, which can have no impact or can have a negative impact. In the end, it didn't seem to be worth the risk.

 

[ArMed]

We get those, "You're my #1 choice," thank you notes all the time. We assume they are lying and treat it as irrelevant. The note is a nice courtesy, but has zero impact on the rank order list.

It's a real sad state of affairs when a program can't take future colleagues on their word.

 

[Per4mer8]

It's a real sad state of affairs when a program can't take future colleagues on their word.

Ha, it works both ways. We have all heard the stories of friends/classmates receiving "you're ranked to match" calls then comes match day and guess where they didn't match.

 

[ArMed]

Ha, it works both ways. We have all heard the stories of friends/classmates receiving "you're ranked to match" calls then comes match day and guess where they didn't match.

Program directors who do this should be ashamed of themselves. Using the converse scenario to justify such juvenile games is highly unprofessional. I would hope that the programs that do such things would end up exposed in a public forum such as this one. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DO Anes]

Ha, it works both ways. We have all heard the stories of friends/classmates receiving "you're ranked to match" calls then comes match day and guess where they didn't match.

Wonder if that's true. I don't see what a program has to gain by this and I would be surprised if any program has the time or effort to go through a pointless exercise. There is no shortage of excellent candidates and it is extraordinarily rare to see one particular individual who is an absolute "must have".

 

[Bertelman]

I sent letters to my top 3, but didn't tell any of them they were "#1". Didn't really blow any smoke, basically thanked them for the interview and said I would be happy to be there. That was my genuine feeling at the time, and I don't think it was misleading, though I can't really say whether it bumped me on the ROL, either.

 

[Bertelman]

Talked to my dean and pd about this also. The consensus seems to be that the email to your #1 can really only help your situation. However, the nondescript emails that say anything but you're my #1 are usually seen right through, which can have no impact or can have a negative impact. In the end, it didn't seem to be worth the risk.

If my sincere thank you letters with no reference to your program's position on my rank list actually dropped my position, I think your PD needs to reassess how applicants are evaluated. To some, a thank you letter is just that- it's not always a manipulation.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

I sent letters to my top 3, but didn't tell any of them they were "#1". Didn't really blow any smoke, basically thanked them for the interview and said I would be happy to be there. That was my genuine feeling at the time, and I don't think it was misleading, though I can't really say whether it bumped me on the ROL, either.

This. I did tell my #1 program that they were #1, and the other programs I liked I thanked and said that I would be thrilled to end up there. You can never go wrong telling the truth.

 

[givesmegas]

If my sincere thank you letters with no reference to your program's position on my rank list actually dropped my position, I think your PD needs to reassess how applicants are evaluated. To some, a thank you letter is just that- it's not always a manipulation.

I was referring to the email that applicants send out before ROLs are submitted. The thank you emails/notes were a separate communication that was purely intended to thank the interviewers for their time after the interviews.

 

[Docindamaking]

Is it insincere to tell a program they are in your top 3 when they really are?

 

[Folken]

s

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Is it insincere to tell a program they are in your top 3 when they really are?

what's the benefit from doing so? none.

what's the downside? varies.

don't do it.

 

[acrolentiginous]

what's the benefit from doing so? none.

what's the downside? varies.

don't do it.

Just as an informal poll.... Have people NOT told their #1-3 that they were "top 3" & still matched there? (This is assuming you previously wrote really nice thank you notes at least.)

 

[spezimdoc]

Bump.

Emailed my #1 already. Did aways at my #2 and #3 so I would think they would know that I'm interested in their programs. Is it worth the risk of sending an email with "ranking very high on my list" implying that they aren't #1? Probably is too late anyways.

 

[Nooblet]

Bump.

Emailed my #1 already. Did aways at my #2 and #3 so I would think they would know that I'm interested in their programs. Is it worth the risk of sending an email with "ranking very high on my list" implying that they aren't #1? Probably is too late anyways.

My feeling is that unless you are going to say "you are # 1", you are better off just saying nothing.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I have been at this for a while. My personal experience is that anyone who says anything other than "I am ranking your program number one" in a letter to the PD at this time of year means they are not ranking your program number one.
People change up the wording all the time, but anyone who has done it for a while sees right through it and knows they won't be getting that candidate if they are a competitive candidate. I only get two kinds of cards/emails this time of year. Those that say they want to rank us number one and those who dance around the topic so much that it is clear that they aren't ranking you number one. I have often wondered why they bother. It doesn't change my list, but it does help me better predict how far down the list we will go.

On the ranked to match quote from PD's; I think some PD's have different interpretation of what that means. I heard one person say that they interpret that as "If we always go down to 30 on our list to get 12, then if you are in the top 30, you are "ranked to match." That is not how I interpret it, but that might explain why some people hear that message and then don't match there if the program does better than expected. I make it a policy never to do that.

 

[Per4mer8]

I have been at this for a while. My personal experience is that anyone who says anything other than "I am ranking your program number one" in a letter to the PD at this time of year means they are not ranking your program number one.
People change up the wording all the time, but anyone who has done it for a while sees right through it and knows they won't be getting that candidate if they are a competitive candidate. I only get two kinds of cards/emails this time of year. Those that say they want to rank us number one and those who dance around the topic so much that it is clear that they aren't ranking you number one. I have often wondered why they bother. It doesn't change my list, but it does help me better predict how far down the list we will go.

On the ranked to match quote from PD's; I think some PD's have different interpretation of what that means. I heard one person say that they interpret that as "If we always go down to 30 on our list to get 12, then if you are in the top 30, you are "ranked to match." That is not how I interpret it, but that might explain why some people hear that message and then don't match there if the program does better than expected. I make it a policy never to do that.

This is kind of a little unnerving. As an applicant I tried to keep a running rank list thru interview season, but let's be honest, it's a tough decision that in most cases takes weeks to sort out after much soul searching. I for one have 4-5 programs I really like and really the things I'm debating are locational differences and MINOR pros/cons. But after the last interview of the season for programs they have their candidate ranking pow-wow and we don't know exactly when this happens. So in the case where an applicant doesn't have an obvious #1 they are left with a choice; say nothing to anyone, or show interest in the ones you are debating on and would love to go to.

I chose to express interest in the ones that could be my top pick....I don't know yet at this point but felt I should say something. I also don't think that because I don't have a sure #1 that this means I don't LOVE any/your program. I would hope that my inability to tell Program X "you're my number 1" wouldn't hurt my rank on their end.

P.S. Don't take this as an argumentative attack. I and I'm sure many other applicants definitely appreciate your input/perspective. Thank you

 

[Per4mer8]

Gern,

Secondary question:

In regards to applicants and your ROL specifically related to "the competitive applicant", which is seen more favorably; no post interview contact, or a "very interested/will be very highly ranking your program" letter/note?

You said earlier it doesn't affect your list per se and I know you can only speak on yourself and your program but should we all just stop sending anything?

 

[spezimdoc]

I have been at this for a while. My personal experience is that anyone who says anything other than "I am ranking your program number one" in a letter to the PD at this time of year means they are not ranking your program number one.
People change up the wording all the time, but anyone who has done it for a while sees right through it and knows they won't be getting that candidate if they are a competitive candidate. I only get two kinds of cards/emails this time of year. Those that say they want to rank us number one and those who dance around the topic so much that it is clear that they aren't ranking you number one. I have often wondered why they bother. It doesn't change my list, but it does help me better predict how far down the list we will go.

On the ranked to match quote from PD's; I think some PD's have different interpretation of what that means. I heard one person say that they interpret that as "If we always go down to 30 on our list to get 12, then if you are in the top 30, you are "ranked to match." That is not how I interpret it, but that might explain why some people hear that message and then don't match there if the program does better than expected. I make it a policy never to do that.

So, in your opinion, which would have the least, if any, negative impact - emailing expressing interest/ranking very highly (but implied not #1) or not emailing at all. I understand that neither really have a significant impact, but I would rather not hurt my position, especially if other applicants are emailing.

 

[Gern Blansten]

I highlighted "at this time of year" to mean days before the rank list is due. Most have decided by this time. Occasionally last minute switches occur for numbers one and two. I understand that. But a last minute email that says I am ranking you highly says we're not number one. To me, that doesn't seem to help your cause.
I think an email post Christmas reiterating your high level of interest and how your spouse loved it and what aspects of the program you liked more than other programs. Saying those kinds of things early enough leaves me with the impression that we are still in the running without a bold faced lie. That early, you could even say you have it narrowed down to their program and one other and that both are great programs and it will be a very difficult decision.
This late, however, most decisions are made, and an "I am ranking your program highly" screams out that you are not ranking them number one.
There is no doubt that the match will leave hard feelings for a lot of people on both sides. I stopped getting my feelings hurt a long time ago (never did really get hurt feelings, but no one likes being lied to). I never solicit info on where we will be ranked (NRMP violation), but I have numerous people volunteer that info. They are usually being truthful as best I can tell. And I have made a purposeful effort to never mislead a person. Most PD's never make promises on where a candidate will be ranked. I only do it if it is a sure thing. Otherwise, I just give varying degrees of encouraging statements.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Gern,

Secondary question:

In regards to applicants and your ROL specifically related to "the competitive applicant", which is seen more favorably; no post interview contact, or a "very interested/will be very highly ranking your program" letter/note?

You said earlier it doesn't affect your list per se and I know you can only speak on yourself and your program but should we all just stop sending anything?

see note above. I think a thank you note early on is good. Maybe a post christmas note letting them know they are still heavily in the running is good. Last minute, 11th hour notes probably don't help much.

 

[givesmegas]

I highlighted "at this time of year" to mean days before the rank list is due. Most have decided by this time. Occasionally last minute switches occur for numbers one and two. I understand that. But a last minute email that says I am ranking you highly says we're not number one. To me, that doesn't seem to help your cause.
I think an email post Christmas reiterating your high level of interest and how your spouse loved it and what aspects of the program you liked more than other programs. Saying those kinds of things early enough leaves me with the impression that we are still in the running without a bold faced lie. That early, you could even say you have it narrowed down to their program and one other and that both are great programs and it will be a very difficult decision.
This late, however, most decisions are made, and an "I am ranking your program highly" screams out that you are not ranking them number one.
There is no doubt that the match will leave hard feelings for a lot of people on both sides. I stopped getting my feelings hurt a long time ago (never did really get hurt feelings, but no one likes being lied to). I never solicit info on where we will be ranked (NRMP violation), but I have numerous people volunteer that info. They are usually being truthful as best I can tell. And I have made a purposeful effort to never mislead a person. Most PD's never make promises on where a candidate will be ranked. I only do it if it is a sure thing. Otherwise, I just give varying degrees of encouraging statements.

Would an applicant be bumped down in the program's rank list after sending any of these type of emails?

 

[Gern Blansten]

Would an applicant be bumped down in the program's rank list after sending any of these type of emails?

Not by me.