Contemplating divorce

[WillowRose]

What's the point of marriage if it's such hard work? I do hard work at work, why would I voluntarily sign up to do hard work at home too?

The same could be said of having children...or of going into medicine. Why volunteer to do something that's hard if you can do something easier?

Perhaps a better way to phrase it is this: Marriage takes work. It doesn't always come easy. Some mornings you will wake up, look at your partner as he's scratching his ass and think "What the hell was I thinking when I married this buffoon?" Other mornings, you'll wake up, see your partner scratching his ass and think "I am married to a crazy man who loves me more than anyone in the world. How lucky am I?" Most days, it will just be "Geez...do you have to do that in front of the kids?"

I don't often enjoy being married. In fact, if anything should happen to my husband, I can honestly say I will never get married again. BUT, there's something to be said for a person who loves me in spite of all my shortcomings and who is willing to support my efforts to become a doctor even though it meant that I had to move away from him & our children. He is busy whining this week because I won't be home this weekend. It's annoying, but I realize why he does it and I understand.

Anyway, I have to go deal with another childhood crisis over the phone.

Willow

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[pathdr2b]

Guess I better apply for a penis, then.

In fact, if anything should happen to my husband, I can honestly say I will never get married again.

Well if your penis app goes thorugh, you won't need one!

Seriously though, you guys have shown NO mercy to the OP. No wonder she hasn't returned! I thought we were hear to help, not condemn

 

[Dr Sum Day]

I am sure that if I chose to I could stay married for the rest of my life. There are some things that make "working on it" seem like a bad idea to me. One of the most blaring things is that I am just not emotionally attached to him. I don't hate him or anything; I'm apathetic. There is definitely truth to the idea that conflict between school and professional activities and the rest of my life plays a major role. My husband has been less than supportive about me spending extra time on campus and for professional activities. When I am working at home, he constantly bugs me about stupid things - as if I want to hear about the free t-shirt that came with his new video card, the cool episode of the Simpsons he is watching, or that our neighbor is putting in a sprinkler system when I am studying for an exam. Then, there is the fact that he wants me to mother him. Even though I have told him that he needs to take care of himself a million times, he still whines at me if he runs out of clean underwear or if I come home at 8pm and he hasn't eaten dinner yet. And, there is the fact that what each of us want out of life is changing. Before we got married we decided that we would live in a non-rural area and n a different city than his parents. Now, he keeps saying that he wants to live out in the boonies in his parent's town. I want to stay open to the possibility of owning an independant pharmacy. My husband keeps coming up with reasons why this is impractical.

I have talked to him about these things (minus the apathy) many times. Sometimes it gets better for awhile, but he eventually falls back into old patterns. When I told him that I was thinking of moving out, he caved and basically told me he would do whatever I wanted just to stay with me. I don't think it is really fair to force someone to change everything about themself just so that you won't leave them. There is just something smackingly manipulative about that. And, even if he did change, I would still have to face the fact that I am apathetic towards him. So, I'm pretty much damned any way I go.

There are a couple of reasons I don't want to have kids with my husband (aside from timing). I feel like I would be mostly doing everything on my own, which is not cool unless you are single. Also, having a child with someone ties you to them more than marriage itself. I don't want to get any more tied in.

I agee with you. He should be a little more supportive and quit bugging you when you're trying to focus. He sounds like a mamma's boy. Maybe you'd be better off with a "real" man and not some "panty waist' AKA a little sissy.

I always encourage my wife.

 

[evines]

I thought we were hear to help, not condemn

Disagreeing with someone is not condemning them. And I don't think it's helpful to anyone to support a poor decision.

On another note . . . You may not remember anything about my other posts, but I am interested in how consistently we disagree about, oh, everything. I'd almost like to meet you just to see what my antithesis looks like. Almost.

 

[ZanMD]

Seriously though, you guys have shown NO mercy to the OP. No wonder she hasn't returned! I thought we were hear to help, not condemn

It sounds to me as if she's made up her mind already. She just wants validation for her decision.Supporting a bad decision wouldn't be constructive. If she's going to do this, she needs to be made aware of all the pros and cons to her choice. I hate to see a pefectly salvageable marriage go down in flames due to lack of effort.

Besides, you can't post something like this on a public website and expect everyone to agree with you.

 

[pathdr2b]

It sounds to me as if she's made up her mind already. She just wants validation for her decision.Supporting a bad decision wouldn't be constructive. If she's going to do this, she needs to be made aware of all the pros and cons to her choice. I hate to see a pefectly salvageable marriage go down in flames due to lack of effort.

Besides, you can't post something like this on a public website and expect everyone to agree with you.

How do we know she's making a "bad" decision? One person's bad decision another's GREAT decision. IMHO, it's when people start using terms like "bad" and "good" that we move from being helpful to being judgemental.

Can't we disagree without being so dam disagreeable? Opps, my bad, this is SDN!

 

[ZanMD]

How do we know she's making a "bad" decision? One person's bad decision another's GREAT decision. IMHO, it's when people start using terms like "bad" and "good" that we move from being helpful to being judgemental.

Can't we disagree without being so dam disagreeable? Opps, my bad, this is SDN!

I'm only basing my opinion on the information that she's given us. Weather it's good or bad, I feel the marriage is still salvageable. I'm not a therapist, but that's my opinion. The choice is ultimately hers to make of course. I personally feel that I am being helpful to her by encouraging her to explore all avenues before deciding to divorce. I'd be lying if I just gave her a thumbs up.

 

[pathdr2b]

I'm only basing my opinion on the information that she's given us. Weather it's good or bad, I feel the marriage is still salvageable. I'm not a therapist, but that's my opinion. The choice is ultimately hers to make of course. I personally feel that I am being helpful to her by encouraging her to explore all avenues before deciding to divorce. I'd be lying if I just gave her a thumbs up.

I definitely agree with you that it's still salvagable just based on what's told us, but what about what she's not telling us? In situations like these, it seems to me that people often keep the worst parts of a story to themselves for a variety of reasons some of which I've hinted on in previous posts. That's why I think it's prudent to be careful about comments even on an anonymous forum.

Lets just suppose her husband is abusive (emotionally or physically or both)and she's too ashamed like many wives of abusive spouses to mention that here. With some of the comments that have been made about her (and not necessarily by you) she may feel even more reluctant to get out of the marriage. I know to some of you reading this, my example may seem extreme but this problem is lot more common even among the educated, than people think. As a former volunteer in a women's shelter, women will often "cover" this problem up by just saying that they can't get along with the spouse. I've seen it far too many times to count.

 

[ZanMD]

I'm "somewhat" familiar with the psychology of abusive relationships (cycles of abuse, the excuses, internalization, rationalization, etc). And of course no one, including myself would advocate staying in an abusive relationship. Unfortunately we can't read minds, and can't say with any certainty that everything she's saying is accurate, or the whole picture. But that's one of the givens with the internet. That is why any advice on the net should come with an automatic disclaimer that it's based only on what is conveyed by the storyteller. We don't know both sides of this story, which is why I say that the advice is based on what I'm hearing. And of course the decision is still hers.

 

[JAMMAN]

Bananaface...

I give you credit for addressing your feelings in the open on this board. I can understand how you feel. Unfortunately in this country, we often do not look at our potential mates as carefully as we should. Marriage compatibility goes well beyond simply dating or living together (as somone else has already said).

In your situation, obviously someone is going to get hurt. In fact, you will both be hurt no matter what happens.

It truly hurts to come to the realization that you no longer see a future with someone that you agreed to spend the rest of your life with. I have been there...and that is why there are such things as second chances.

Right now, you have to decide if you still love the person that you married...not necessarily the person he is today.

If you do, then you should seek counselling to see if you can rekindle what you had.

If the person you married only existed as a fantasy in your own mind and the fantasy is now over, then there may be no way to save the marriage.

 

[bananaface]

I thought this thread died long ago. I am used to being in the pharmacy forum where once a couple days have gone by, the chaces of getting bumped are pretty slim. Sorry, guys.

I look back at how many people have said "I think your marriage is still salvageable" and "get counseling" and it just amazes me. It is so against the spirit of the original post, I wonder how many people really read it for what it was or accepted it at face value.

So, here is the update:

We are getting divorced. Not once since I told him have I regretted my decision. Several times, my decision has been reaffirmed. I am moving to an apartment in a week. Right now, I am staying in the spare room and have been for about a month. I am going to sign the mortgage and the equity in the house over to him, since after selling there would be hardly anything left anyway. We have gone through everything in the house and divided it up evenly without fighting. He has gotten cranky a few times and said rude things. But, it takes two to fight and I figure that it is just easier to ignore it than to have a big dispute and end up turning an emotional dispute into a legal dispute. As it stands, the paperwork should go quietly. I don't see any reason to keep in touch with him afterwards. We drifted so far apart that we are not really even friends anymore. I don't know how that happened while we lived together, but it did. I am half of the mind that I will never get married again. But, perhaps that will pass with time.

He has dealt with the whole thing better than I had figured he would. There is a little animosity on his part, but he tries to hide it. Every once in awhile it sneaks out. I was told a few time in the beginning that he hoped I would change my mind. Now I am just asked repeatedly how long it will be until I move. Recently he has started adding "so I can have girls over." to the end of that question.

I have to get up in about 3 hours, so I'm going to close for the evening.

 

[Peeshee]

So,after coming to this decision of divorce, would you have any advice for those of us who are not married yet? What would you have done differently?

 

[evines]

So,after coming to this decision of divorce, would you have any advice for those of us who are not married yet? What would you have done differently?

Maybe you should ask somebody that made it work.

 

[nachoDoc]

I look back at how many people have said "I think your marriage is still salvageable" and "get counseling" and it just amazes me. It is so against the spirit of the original post, I wonder how many people really read it for what it was or accepted it at face value.

You did the right thing at the right time for all the right reasons.
You know that in your heart and in your soul.
Time to move forward a more wiser woman...
You will love and be loved again.
It's a brand new day!
Go live and be happy!

 

[pathdr2b]

Maybe you should ask somebody that made it work.

"Making it work" is truly in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[delchrys]

be honest. that means self-honest as well as honest in your words, your deeds to your partner...don't play mind games and "omit" things, just be truthful and work constantly to open up to each other. build trust and don't betray that trust. respect each other. develop intimacy and keep working at it--none of these things just stays on autopilot, no matter what you might think when things are great.

i think that if you can do these things with all your heart, and if you are with someone who does the same, that's a pretty awesome start.

 

[bananaface]

See! I knew there was more than one person out there who didn't have it out for me! (Actually, I got a few supportive PMs during this process).

So,after coming to this decision of divorce, would you have any advice for those of us who are not married yet? What would you have done differently?

I always thought premarital counseling was stupid and cheezy, until I realized that alot of the issues that came up could have been averted if we had gone through something like that. The obvious answer the your second question is that I would have not gotten married in the first place. Somehow, I don't think that advice is going to help anyone. Perhaps a better answer is that I should not have avoided discussing things openly because I didn't want to hurt my partner's feelings. Actually, that might have resulted in me not getting married to start with. So, yeah. I'll go with that.

Maybe you should ask somebody that made it work.

If you refuse to learn from other's mistakes, evines, you are missing out on alot of useful information. If there is anything that you can learn from my experience, I hope that you take it to heart and use it to make the most out of your relationships.

 

[bananaface]

Just something I pulled from above and wanted to comment on....

And I don't think it's helpful to anyone to support a poor decision.

Supporting a bad decision wouldn't be constructive.

This is just a general comment, not one relating the posts above to myself. There is a difference between supporting the person who has made a decision you disagree with and supporting the actual decision. When you withdraw support from someone you care about because of their decisions, you may indeed be very non-constructive. You can leave them feeling alone, deserted, and betrayed. Withdrawing support when you disagree with someone is a slap in the face to their autonomy, and shows your caring for them is only conditional.

 

[hysteriaweb]

You not supposed to ask women there age but in this case I am asking. How old were you when you met him and how old were you when you got married? It honestly sounds like you have trouble interpreting your own feelings. Love, is something that can't be created in a lab nor should it be something that you base your decision on divorce with. There are plenty of marriages where the husband and wife do not love each other as much as they did in the past. But they choose to stay together because it works. They have formed a bond that allows them to handle life's challenges together.

I feel that once you take time to understand your own feelings, you will realize what you truly felt for your husband. As time goes by you will start to see that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

Good luck, that was a strong move that you ended up going with.

 

[ZanMD]

Just something I pulled from above and wanted to comment on....
This is just a general comment, not one relating the posts above to myself. There is a difference between supporting the person who has made a decision you disagree with and supporting the actual decision. When you withdraw support from someone you care about because of their decisions, you may indeed be very non-constructive. You can leave them feeling alone, deserted, and betrayed. Withdrawing support when you disagree with someone is a slap in the face to their autonomy, and shows your caring for them is only conditional.

There was no need to go into somantics. The bottom line is that I personally feel you're making the wrong choice based on the circumstances. I don't know you personally, so I can only disagree with your decision. So far there is nothing you said that leads me to change my position. I can't withdraw support that wasn't there to begin with. Based on what you've told me, you made a poor decision to marry in the first place, and giving as easily as you are (and yes based on what you said, you are giving up waaay too easily) I think you're compounding that mistake with more. You're basically stating that marriage to you means nothing more than a legal affiliation. And it sounds as if you went into the marriage that way.

I think the way you're handling it is just fine-But I don't condone the act. I also personally think that no matter your real age, you have a lot of maturing to do when it comes to relationships-again based on what I see written in this thread. But that's just my opinion.

And it is truly another sad sad testament to the sanctity of marriage. And ladies, if you always wonder why guys have fear of commitment- this is definitely on the top ten list.

Good luck!

 

[pathdr2b]

And it is truly another sad sad testament to the sanctity of marriage. And ladies, if you always wonder why guys have fear of commitment- this is definitely on the top ten list.

Good luck!

Okay, Zan you just got on my bad side!

You KNOW that's not the reason men fear commitment. Men didn't seem to have a problem with it 50 eyars ago, so what has changed? I'll tell you what, living together before marriage and premarital sex.

I'm convinced the reason men were so commital long ago is because they had to marry to get some lovin!

 

[WillowRose]

Okay, Zan you just got on my bad side!

You KNOW that's not the reason men fear commitment. Men didn't seem to have a problem with it 50 eyars ago, so what has changed? I'll tell you what, living together before marriage and premarital sex.

I'm convinced the reason men were so commital long ago is because they had to marry to get some lovin!

Oh, they got lovin'. It just wasn't well-known because "good girls didn't." One of those "good girls" is my mother-in-law who had to drop out of high school when she found out she was knocked up. They're still married 43 years later. Go figure.

OP, best of luck to you. Regarding your comment that a lot of people didn't take your original post at face value...I think we did. We read it and saw a couple that weren't communicating and that's a recipe for divorce. You can't hold things inside forever and expect to feel the same way about the person you're keeping things from. I believe that's why so many people were encourage you to try counseling. Not necessarily that it was repairable, but that the opportunity to make a good faith effort was there.

Actually, a lot of your posts have sounded very familiar to me. I kinda rushed into marriage, found myself "falling out of love," really became apathetic toward my husband, slept in a separate bed for about a year of our marriage... I was ready to walk out a million times. He finally had the guts to say, "We're going to sit down and we're going to be brutally honest." Once things were out in the open, we could work on dealing with them. But the honesty and the desire to try have to both be there.

And it sounds like your husband is probably suppressing a lot of anger and hurt. The comments about other girls and things--probably just meant to sting and cause you some of the pain he's feeling. Completely understandable and expected.

Good luck to you both.

Willow

 

[evines]

Okay, Zan you just got on my bad side!

You KNOW that's not the reason men fear commitment. Men didn't seem to have a problem with it 50 eyars ago, so what has changed? I'll tell you what, living together before marriage and premarital sex.

I'm convinced the reason men were so commital long ago is because they had to marry to get some lovin!

So are you admitting that it is women's fault that men are noncommittal??
You know the whole "Why buy the cow" argument, right?

 

[Peeshee]

If you refuse to learn from other's mistakes, evines, you are missing out on alot of useful information. If there is anything that you can learn from my experience, I hope that you take it to heart and use it to make the most out of your relationships.[/QUOTE]

I agree that we can learn from other people's mistakes and by seeing what they went through, we can try to re-evaluate ourselves and try to prevent (although not always possible) from committing the same mistakes.

Your situation is difficult, because I think from what you have said so far, you probably shouldn't have married him in the first place and probably married him for all the wrong reasons. It is hard to work on something like that, if you do not have feelings for him anymore, or maybe never did from the beginning. So, divorce seems like the solution to this problem. I am not saying that I believe divorce is a "good" solution, but if you guys had married for the right reasons and started having problems later in the marriage due to other reasons, then, I would really encourage trying to make it work in the marriage. I know that marriage or even remaining married takes lots of effort, work, and sacrifice. It is not easy at all.

I just think that this should alert all of us who are unmarried to think very, very,very carefully before making the decision to marry someone and be with that person for the rest of our lives. If we evaluate things carefully and with the best foresight we can use, then, at least we will know we are making a mature, conscious decision to get married and make things work, through the good times and the very difficult times.

Hope things work out for all of you.

 

[bananaface]

How old were you when you met him and how old were you when you got married?

We lived int he same dorm freshman year of college, so I met him when I was 18. We started dating December of our sophomore year, when I was 19. I was 23 when we got married in August of 2002. I'll be 26 in about a month.

I just think that this should alert all of us who are unmarried to think very, very,very carefully before making the decision to marry someone and be with that person for the rest of our lives. If we evaluate things carefully and with the best foresight we can use, then, at least we will know we are making a mature, conscious decision to get married and make things work, through the good times and the very difficult times.

Agreed. Excellent take home.

 

[pathdr2b]

So are you admitting that it is women's fault that men are noncommittal??
You know the whole "Why buy the cow" argument, right?

I'm actually saying that it's the man's fault for not being able to keep those raging hormones under control. And yes, I stand behind my "why get married when you can get the what you want without commitment for free" statement.

PS-Are you saying that you're a "cow" or dating one?

Now back to the recent issue raised, I personally think part of a long term relationship is acceptance that you MAY fall in and out of love over the years. But, you have to be committed to keeping the relationship in tact despite this.

 

[WillowRose]

Now back to the recent issue raised, I personally think part of a long term relationship is acceptance that you MAY fall in and out of love over the years. But, you have to be committed to keeping the relationship in tact despite this.

I think this comes down to the eternal question "What is love?" Being "in love" usually brings up that idea of swelling orchestral music, wind in your hair, passionate embraces and all things glorious. In reality that is a small part of a relationship. You have to have the foresight to realize that you almost certainly will not feel that sweeping passion that you felt when you first met/got married. It may come and go, but it can't last.

The part that lasts is a deep abiding friendship and connection that goes way beyond sexual attraction. That is what deserves the commitment. None of that requires a couple to be married, of course. So I guess you just have to be committed to taking care of the cow in order to get the milk.

There's so much more to love & marriage than just feeling "in love."

 

[curlybabe]

I understand your feelings about not getting the support you need but I think it's a little rash to get a divorce after two years. Maybe you need some counseling or at least have a talk with your husband and tell him how you feel. He may not have a clue about your feelings and thoughts. Plus, all marriages go through these down moments. You talk about falling in love again. No one ever said that this an eternal feeling . You fall in love and then you enter a stage of mutual respect, understanding and love that incorporates compassion and acceptance of each other.

Unless, you feel that he is a really a wrong person for you who is not willing to makes some changes then you can contmeplate a divorce.

 

[alison_in_oh]

I'm actually saying that it's the man's fault for not being able to keep those raging hormones under control. And yes, I stand behind my "why get married when you can get the what you want without commitment for free" statement.

I'll tell you what, anyone who considered their marriage vows to be simply fair payment for a screw would be no one I wanted to marry. But that's me.

If you really think that you can have everything that marriage has to offer without saying those vows, then marriage doesn't offer you as much as it does me.

I don't think men fear commitment to women who don't use it as a weapon or a tether or worse.

And I do think that completely open communication could have saved or prevented the OP's marital problems. Such openness is much harder to achieve with someone you've never seen naked.

JMO.

 

[Febrifuge]

... We are getting divorced. Not once since I told him have I regretted my decision. Several times, my decision has been reaffirmed. I am moving to an apartment in a week. Right now, I am staying in the spare room and have been for about a month. I am going to sign the mortgage and the equity in the house over to him, since after selling there would be hardly anything left anyway. We have gone through everything in the house and divided it up evenly without fighting.

Well, the situation sucks, and I'm sorry for both of you, but what's done is done. It's good to see that you're going about this with compassion and that quiet sense of respect, and not making it into either a joyous or a spiteful thing. (I only wish the woman I divorced had been so reasonable.)

I still say if it's possible to avoid, it's worth it... and in the midst of it, it's difficult to know if it's possible to avoid. But what's done is done, and plenty of people come out the other side stronger than they were. Indeed, growing up and getting stronger can be a reason why something that used to work no longer does. Been there; done that.

Good luck to you and your ex-to-be.

 

[pathdr2b]

I'll tell you what, anyone who considered their marriage vows to be simply fair payment for a screw would be no one I wanted to marry. But that's me.
If you really think that you can have everything that marriage has to offer without saying those vows, then marriage doesn't offer you as much as it does me.

What in the world are you talking about?

I don't think men fear commitment to women who don't use it as a weapon or a tether or worse..

Reserving sex for a committed relationship is using it as a weapon? So much for valuing sexual imtimacy. And BTW, shacking up with your college boyfriend since sophomore year does NOT qualify as committed in my book.

And I do think that completely open communication could have saved or prevented the OP's marital problems. Such openness is much harder to achieve with someone you've never seen naked.
JMO.

This reminds me, I think the best way for committed couples to have "heated discussions" is naked. Quickly you'll see that whatever it was that was being "discussed" was not all that important, and in the end everyone ends up with a smile on her and his face!

 

[LADoc00]

You're either a troll or your husband deserves better. I bet the first.

What I was thinking precisely.

 

[ZanMD]

Okay, Zan you just got on my bad side!

You KNOW that's not the reason men fear commitment. Men didn't seem to have a problem with it 50 eyars ago, so what has changed? I'll tell you what, living together before marriage and premarital sex.

I'm convinced the reason men were so commital long ago is because they had to marry to get some lovin!

Ya I agree it's the cow and the milk thing. But women need lovin as much as men- they just "pretend" they don't so they can use it as leverage for marriage-thinking it's a "sure thing", which in today's society(as proven by the OP) is NOT true. Women want to be married (in general) more than the men, while the men see it as more of a "formality". Personally I think any guy that let's sex be a factor in marriage is an idiot- there are plenty of ways to get sex without such a drastic step.

Personally I think wha the "OP" calls her "marriage" (or her "friends" whatever the case) is a joke, and that's pretty much how she's treating it- like it's no big deal to just throw away a 2 year marriage-so really I have nothing constructive to add, because it only falls on deaf ears. In the age of Brittany Spears 55 hour marriage, I guess it doesn't surprise me anymore.

/shrug

That's why I think it should be harder to divorce. They need to setup some kind of "test" that will make it so hard to divorce, that if you do it, nothing but the worst circumstances will cause you to divorce. Maybe a fine of 75 percent of your net worth going to the government(no need for a divorce lawyer)

 

[spacecowgirl]

I know Anna from the PharmD forums and she most certainly is not a troll. What a stupid comment to make about someone that a) you don't know and b) has over 500 posts.

Anna - I am going through a divorce right now too and am also a P2 - crappy timing, eh? I understand what you are going through and am not even going to make an attempt to formulate any assumptions about your situation. I know for me we tried everything available - counseling for over a year - individual and marital, praying, reading, etc. But there were deep lying issues that just could not be resolved. Why did we get married in the first place? The short answer to that is - he completely changed. Sure people change throughout their lives and in a good relationship, the partners can change and learn together. However, I was not about to deal with his total lack of responsibility, the immaturity, lying, stealing, and other problems that severly compromised my future career and more importantly my mental health. These changes I could not and would not accomodate. While we were dating he did not exhibit these behaviors, I didn't know how much he would change once we got married. Is he entirely to blame? No, but there is no sense in us both wasting 20 years only to come to the same conclusion we came to in 3 years. And I am definitely much more aware of my wants/needs in a partner than I was before. I also learned what I will and won't put up with. Since I haven't posted every last detail of everything that has happened, I will undoubtedly get slammed like Anna. But that's ok. I don't expect people that don't know me to understand, but I know that I ultimately made the best possible decision as hard as it was and will be.

I wonder how many people in here that are slamming Anna are married? Doesn't sound like many. But it's much more fun to make uneducated accusations isn't it

So you get no judgement from me, Anna, just understanding and a hug because I know how hard it is. PM me if you want to talk more.

 

[alison_in_oh]

I'll tell you what, anyone who considered their marriage vows to be simply fair payment for a screw would be no one I wanted to marry. But that's me.
If you really think that you can have everything that marriage has to offer without saying those vows, then marriage doesn't offer you as much as it does me.

What in the world are you talking about?

What I'm trying to get across is that for me, sex and marriage aren't inextricably linked, in fact they are utterly separate ideas. Sex is the natural progression of physical intimacy, one that ideally takes place between two consenting adults who love and respect each other. Marriage is the natural progression of emotional intimacy and is a societal institution that exists for the support of of a strong community. Marriage is one way to form a stable family unit that promotes healthy child-raising; sex is one way to have children to raise. For me, that's the only link between the two.

So when you say that having sex before marriage pre-empts any reason for a man to commit to a woman, and when you say there's no reason to get married/"buy the cow" when you can get what you want/"the milk" without committing/"for free", it tells me that A) dangling sex as bait to hook a guy sounds like it's your preferred MO and B) you don't see any benefit to marriage other than sex and living together, since you seem to think these things, occuring pre-maritally, spoil the "point" of marrying.

I disagree.

I don't think men fear commitment to women who don't use it as a weapon or a tether or worse.

Reserving sex for a committed relationship is using it as a weapon?

No, putting a time limit on Commitment and enforcing a concrete definition of your relationship is using *commitment* as a weapon and a leash, and the kind of thing that men, stereotypically, fear. In my experience, which is admittedly limited, permitting a relationship to unfold organically and treating commitment as a bilateral outgrowth of that progression creates a stable foundation, and is nothing to fear.

And BTW, shacking up with your college boyfriend since sophomore year does NOT qualify as committed in my book.

This I agree with. But only in the "Duh" sense...as in, you're comparing apples and oranges. Of course the one doesn't qualify as the other. Commitment isn't measured in terms of the length of a relationship or when in life it started. It's a bond between two people that nobody else can dictate or define.

 

[pathdr2b]

A) dangling sex as bait to hook a guy sounds like it's your preferred MO and B) you don't see any benefit to marriage other than sex and living together, since you seem to think these things, occuring pre-maritally, spoil the "point" of marrying.I disagree.

This isn't about "dangling" anything and it's funny people always seem to go this route. Has anyone else here heard of a book called the Bible?. As a christian, I believe that sex is for marital relationships, ONLY plain and simple. Anyone who doesn't believe that premaritial sex isn't a contributor to the demise of marriage in this country is being VERY, VERY, naive.

Let me be conspiciously clear here. My MO is keeping myself in good physical/emotional shape, being ambitious,and living by certain moral standards. I've found that that last one is particularly desired by most of the men that I've dated before.

No, putting a time limit on Commitment and enforcing a concrete definition of your relationship is using *commitment* as a weapon and a leash, and the kind of thing that men, stereotypically, fear

Again, not sure where you got the impression that anyone is putting a time limit on anything. But rest assured if you have or want to live with a man indefinitely, be my guest. Just understand that I'd NEVER allow myself to be "played" this way.

BTW, what's an "organic" relationship? One with lots of carbon?

 

[alison_in_oh]

As a christian, I believe that sex is for marital relationships, ONLY plain and simple.

And I should have pointed out, my views on sex and marriage aren't everybody's. I respect the view that marriage is a sacrament or otherwise a state with special religious significance. But I'm more than a cow and I have more to offer than the milk, yannow? Clearly you think so too, but that's not really coming across. Your language makes it sound like sex is a tool in the toolbox, not a special and sacred act that should be reserved for couples in a sacred state.

Since I don't think that sex and marriage have to be joined at the hip, I don't think that premarital sex is contributing to high divorce rates. I've got my own views and morals and beliefs about how sex and marriage fit into our society, but this is not the place for that rant. Suffice to say, I think that sex and cohabitation work for some couples, preceding those things with marriage is important for some couples...basically, everybody's different.

*Disclaimer* My views on society were formed in the liberal Northwest, where unmarried couples of all sorts of gender combinations are common if not the norm, with and without children, and where a whole lot of things seem to happen "organically"...

 

[pathdr2b]

*Disclaimer* My views on society were formed in the liberal Northwest, where unmarried couples of all sorts of gender combinations are common if not the norm, with and without children, and where a whole lot of things seem to happen "organically"...

I was born and spent most of my formative years in San Fran as in California, home of the inorganic relationship, I guess!

 

[saiyagirl]

what if you never, in your life, end up married? is it still premarital sex?

 

[thewebthsp]

A-marital technically...

i think you get stoned to death or something in primitive cultures for reproducing without a license

 

[bananaface]

If we were to make a list of issues that most often contribute to divorce:

- financial
- abuse, whether physical, emotional, sexual, etc
- infidelity
- lack of communication/inability to compromise; constant fighting
- change in priorities (e.g. one spouse is placing their work first, or one wants children and the other doesn't, etc)

Anyway, I don't think this helps the OP so I'll stop here.

It doesn't bother me how far you go on the topic. I think the bottom two you listed were factors in my case (minus fighting).

Some people seem to think me leaving my husband makes me an immature quitter. Why would go through the motions of counseling when I already know in my heart that I have no underlying bond with my spouse? Wouldn't that be decietful? I have said before that I believe that our marriage was a mistake. Religious beliefs aside, is living with a mistake really that much more mature than correcting it? That is where I stand, currently.

 

[Khenon]

Anna,

I think your only mistake in all this was posting on this forum. Most of these people don't know you AT ALL (I did see the post from an apparent friend, though). It's impossible to get good advice from people who don't know the whole situation.

That said, I wanted to tell you that I sympathize with your situation, and I hope the best for you. I got divorced when I was 19, and only after I found out I was pregnant. We were married 6 months. (Most everyone on this site would have had a hay-day with that scenario!!) It's been 10 years since that terrible time, but I remember the pain of the whole thing like it was yesterday. I can't believe how cruel and inconsiderate so many of the people on this forum were being to you. But I remember people being the same way to me back then. People don't think when they ever so graciously bless others with their opinions. I've learned that the hard way, and have ever since left my personal life to only those whom I completely trust and love. They know me the best, and I can take their critisisms and their advice. Anyone else can pretty much kiss my ass.

You may decide to post other such personal stuff on this or other websites, and that's certainly your perogative. I just hope you have a thick enough skin to deal with such harmful and pointless comments.

I am terribly sorry about your divorce and I wish you the best. Take care and good luck.

 

[ZanMD]

I think it's an unrealistic expectation to post something as volatile of a topic as this, then expect people 1. to take your side and 2. not to question the decision. It would be like posting "I'm getting an abortion and I need advice on how to deal with my boyfriend" and expect people not to comment on the abortion.

I don't think anyone is personally attacking her, but we are entitled to disagree, like it or not.

 

[GoodMonkey]

I thought this thread died long ago. I am used to being in the pharmacy forum where once a couple days have gone by, the chaces of getting bumped are pretty slim. Sorry, guys.

I look back at how many people have said "I think your marriage is still salvageable" and "get counseling" and it just amazes me. It is so against the spirit of the original post, I wonder how many people really read it for what it was or accepted it at face value.

So, here is the update:

We are getting divorced. Not once since I told him have I regretted my decision. Several times, my decision has been reaffirmed. I am moving to an apartment in a week. Right now, I am staying in the spare room and have been for about a month. I am going to sign the mortgage and the equity in the house over to him, since after selling there would be hardly anything left anyway. We have gone through everything in the house and divided it up evenly without fighting. He has gotten cranky a few times and said rude things. But, it takes two to fight and I figure that it is just easier to ignore it than to have a big dispute and end up turning an emotional dispute into a legal dispute. As it stands, the paperwork should go quietly. I don't see any reason to keep in touch with him afterwards. We drifted so far apart that we are not really even friends anymore. I don't know how that happened while we lived together, but it did. I am half of the mind that I will never get married again. But, perhaps that will pass with time.

He has dealt with the whole thing better than I had figured he would. There is a little animosity on his part, but he tries to hide it. Every once in awhile it sneaks out. I was told a few time in the beginning that he hoped I would change my mind. Now I am just asked repeatedly how long it will be until I move. Recently he has started adding "so I can have girls over." to the end of that question.

maybe it's just me, but it sounds a little like both parties involved just have a little growing up to do. and maybe next time, take the idea of a marriage commitment a little more seriously before you jump into it.
best of luck.

 

[WillowRose]

I grew up being taught premarital sex was bad, that it was a sin according to the Bible, etc. When I grew old enough to begin thinking about things on my own I noticed this issue wasn't explicitly addressed as far as I could find. It seemed to be a matter of interpretation. Am I missing something here? Pathdr2b, is there a passage somewhere that unequivocally addresses this issue, because it's something I had given up on trying to find years ago.




If we were to make a list of issues that most often contribute to divorce:

- financial
- abuse, whether physical, emotional, sexual, etc
- infidelity
- lack of communication/inability to compromise; constant fighting
- change in priorities (e.g. one spouse is placing their work first, or one wants children and the other doesn't, etc)

I'm sure there are others but I think I've got the big ones. I just don't see how premarital sex falls in here. When two people marry, I would hope they already know if the other has been sexually active before marriage (especially if it's with each other!). So it should not be an issue post-wedding. If you're talking about infidelity, I think that's a whole different issue.

Anyway, I don't think this helps the OP so I'll stop here.

Wow...so many good points to address. First of all, from what I have learned, during Biblical times, sex was common for engaged couples. The act of betrothment was considered as good as married, essentially. Mary (as in the virgin) was in a position of potentially being shunned because Joseph *knew* he had not impregnated her. But, I could be wrong... So is that premarital sex?

Secondly, there are plenty of couples who do not have premarital sex and still divorce. I've known lots of them. While there is more to marriage than sex (duh!), there is a lot to be said for bad sex making the rest of a marriage seem even worse. Let's throw another classic metaphor into the mix with the milk cow---don't buy a car without test-driving it. Sexual incompatibility is certainly a factor in poor relationships, but it's exclusive of premarital activity.

Most marital problems revolve around money. I'd venture to guess that many divorces are grounded on similar problems. And I'd throw fun things like mental illness/alcoholism/drug abuse in there as well. When a spouse will not get treatment for a problem that affects the entire family, it's hard to keep a marriage together.