Contiguous Rank

[Doctor G]

Hello everybody,

How big of a factor does "contiguous rank" play in the ranking process? I am applying to both FP and IM. When it comes to ranking the programs, will ranking programs contiguously (programs with same specialty) have a more favorable outcome than ranking them otherwise (e.g. im, fp, fp, im, fp...). And, say I will rank about 10 programs total.

Thanks in advance!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You should rank the programs in the order you want to go to them. That's all. No amount of resorting your programs will "increase" your chance of matching.

If you want IM>FP, then you should rank all of your IM programs first, then the FP programs.

If location is most important, you should simply rank the programs based on location.

If you simply want to rank programs on how much you like them (imagine that!), then simply do that.

Here's the gist of the issue: Let's say you're "guaranteed" to match at program X -- i.e. they have ranked you #1 on their list. If you submit the following rank list:

1. Mass General
2. Johns Hopkins
3. Brigham and Women's
4. Yada yada
...
...
...
100. Program X

... one of two things will happen -->
A. you will match at one of your top 99 spots, or
B. You will match at Program X

You cannot "lose" a spot at a program by ranking them low. You will match there, unless you match higher on your list. Hence, you cannot "game" the system. Simply rank programs in the order you like.

Another way of looking at it is this: If you don't match anywhere, then no matter what order your list was in, you still would not have matched anywhere.

The only decisions you need to make are:
1. Which programs would you rather be at (i.e. what order they go on your list), and
2. Which programs you do NOT want to be at (i.e. you do not rank these programs)

 

[NJWxMan]

I am applying to a historically non-competitive specialty. Let's say I interview at program X, don't rank program X, then don't match based upon my rank list. Will program X ridicule/despise me if I try to crawl back for a scramble spot? I suspect the answer is obvious. I would never try to put myself into this position, but I suspect crazier things have happened.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I am applying to a historically non-competitive specialty. Let's say I interview at program X, don't rank program X, then don't match based upon my rank list. Will program X ridicule/despise me if I try to crawl back for a scramble spot? I suspect the answer is obvious. I would never try to put myself into this position, but I suspect crazier things have happened.

Well, if you're willing to apply at program X when you have to scramble...why didn't you just rank them in the first place?

The only reason you DON'T rank a place is if you'd rather fail to match then end up at that place. In your scenario, the only reason not to rank X is because you'd prefer to scramble then match there...but when you scramble you scramble into it?

 

[Law2Doc]

Well, if you're willing to apply at program X when you have to scramble...why didn't you just rank them in the first place?

The only reason you DON'T rank a place is if you'd rather fail to match then end up at that place. In your scenario, the only reason not to rank X is because you'd prefer to scramble then match there...but when you scramble you scramble into it?

Agreed. On the one hand, you are sending a message to X that you considered not matching to be better than them. On the other hand, if they are taking folks in the scramble, they are already taking folks who didn't get what they wanted. So everyone is desperate at that stage and I doubt folks will hold it against you -- they didn't get who they wanted either. That being said, as PSJ said above, if you would rather get into X than scramble, then just rank it last. If you'd rather scramble, then what do you care if X doesn't want you at the scramble stage?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Usually the story goes like this:

Resident: There is no way I want to be at Program X because of ABC.
Resident: Therefore, I won't rank them.

Then, the monday of match week, the resident finds out they didn't match. They feel horrible. They rethink the issue above, and decide that was a big mistake.

Then, on Tuesday, the unfilled program list comes out, and lo and behold Program X is on it.

As mentioned above, the general tenor of the scramble is "panic" on all fronts. If Prog X ranked you, then there is a good chance they will take you in the scramble. I mean, they would have been happy to have you in the match, so why not? The will ask you, on the phone, why you didn't rank them. You'd better have a good answer.

 

[Dr McSteamy]

how about save all the trouble of a potential scramble, and rank all 20-30 programs you interviewed at?

there is no downside to ranking every single program, right?

 

[Law2Doc]

how about save all the trouble of a potential scramble, and rank all 20-30 programs you interviewed at?

there is no downside to ranking every single program, right?

No. The only downside I can think of might be if there's a place you didn't get an interview at that you would have preferred over the one you ranked at the bottom, and they end up taking people from the scramble (which could have been you if you weren't matched by your last choice). But more people would burn themselves than win with this kind of strategy.

 

[Dr McSteamy]

No. The only downside I can think of might be if there's a place you didn't get an interview at that you would have preferred over the one you ranked at the bottom, and they end up taking people from the scramble (which could have been you if you weren't matched by your last choice). But more people would burn themselves than win with this kind of strategy.

well, then you'd have to be a big gambler to risk it all on the scramble.

and that thing is like a Black Friday sale. inventory runs out in a few hours minutes.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

there is no downside to ranking every single program, right?

No downside, unless you really didn't like the program. You should only rank programs you would be willing to go to. Every year, people decide to rank a program that they don't want to go to (either because of something they saw in the interview, or geography, or something like that) because "it's better than going in the scramble", and then they end up posting on SDN trying to find a way out of their match.

Do not rank programs unless you would be willing to go there. Not matching or trying to scramble, is better than a bad match.

 

[doc39]

how about when it comes to ranking categorical programs and preliminary prgrams? is that all one list as well? or 2 seperate lists?

thanks bunches

 

[Ludicolo]

how about when it comes to ranking categorical programs and preliminary prgrams? is that all one list as well? or 2 seperate lists?

Are we talking categorical IM programs and prelim IM programs? If so then you would rank them all in one list, in whatever order you want.

If you are talking about mixing prelim IM and categorical/advanced specialties that start in the PGY-2 year (like radiology or PM&R); then the permutations become a little more involved. But basically you can rank everything in your primary ROL, then for each advanced program you would submit a supplementary ROL of your prelim programs.

For example, your primary ROL could be the following:
1. Categorical PM&R program A
2. Advanced PM&R program B
- with supplemental ROL: 1. Prelim IM program C
3. Prelim IM program C

If you match at program A then congratulations. If you don’t match at A but match at program B then your supplemental ROL is triggered, and you will match (hopefully) at program C as well. If you don’t match at B you could still match at prelim program C, but then you will have to find a way via the scramble or some other method to secure a PGY-2 position after your internship.

If you match at program B but fail to match at program C, you will have to scramble for a prelim spot somewhere.

 

[CR7]

So, what about programs that offer both a categorical and an advanced track? Does that mean I could rank that program twice? For example:

1. Program A (categorical)
2. Program A (advanced)
-supplemental list (prelim)
3. Program B (categorical)
4. Program B (advanced)
-supplemental list (prelim)
5...10, etc.

And also, when looking at the length of this match list, does that factor in when the NRMP puts out its statistics in Charting Outcomes in the Match? So theoretically a list of 5 programs that offer both tracks would be a rank list of 10?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

So, what about programs that offer both a categorical and an advanced track? Does that mean I could rank that program twice? For example:

1. Program A (categorical)
2. Program A (advanced)
-supplemental list (prelim)
3. Program B (categorical)
4. Program B (advanced)
-supplemental list (prelim)
5...10, etc.

Yep. This is fine, and you can rank them in any order. You could rank all the categorical programs first, then all the advanced ones. Or, you can rank them by location as you have done above. Or any other way.

And also, when looking at the length of this match list, does that factor in when the NRMP puts out its statistics in Charting Outcomes in the Match? So theoretically a list of 5 programs that offer both tracks would be a rank list of 10?

I believe so, but this is a rare occurance in most fields (to have both cat and adv spots)

 

[howelljolly]

No. The only downside I can think of might be if there's a place you didn't get an interview at that you would have preferred over the one you ranked at the bottom, and they end up taking people from the scramble (which could have been you if you weren't matched by your last choice). But more people would burn themselves than win with this kind of strategy.

I dont know if Im understanding this correctly... is the "strategy" to not rank the programs that you are equivocal about, with the plan that if you need to scramble you might obtain a scramble position at one of your higher-ranked spots?

I think the assumption has to be that the place where you prefered to go to did not rank you at all.

If this does happen, what are the chances that they would take you in the Scramble, if they didnt rank you at all for the Match?

It seems that this is a possibility... and makes me wonder, what the threshold is for: "Id rather take my changes in the Scramble, than Match into this place"

 

[Law2Doc]

I dont know if Im understanding this correctly... is the "strategy" to not rank the programs that you are equivocal about, with the plan that if you need to scramble you might obtain a scramble position at one of your higher-ranked spots?

I think the assumption has to be that the place where you prefered to go to did not rank you at all.

If this does happen, what are the chances that they would take you in the Scramble, if they didnt rank you at all for the Match?

It seems that this is a possibility... and makes me wonder, what the threshold is for: "Id rather take my changes in the Scramble, than Match into this place"

No, I was saying that it's conceivable that a place you didn't get an interview at (and thus couldn't rank) in theory could end up taking you in the scramble, if you didn't match. Programs try not to have to resort to the scramble, but certainly there are programs that miscalculate each year, as evidenced by the fact that some decent places end up resorting to the scramble to fill their unmatched slots. You'd be crazy to gamble that this would happen, and in most cases will rank someplace you are less interested in last, to avoid having to scramble, but you always hear about one or two people who fall into good luck and end up in something they wanted more than the worst place they didn't match into. This won't be you, but it happens from time to time.

 

[Samoa]

I think the threshold is: If I didn't match, I wouldn't accept a position there in the scramble.