Contract help

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inspire004

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I have Pain doc who will give me 1 yr contract, 35 % of collections from my 2 days in a week work he initially wants to offer. He wants to build up slowly and wants to take a 65 % from what i make. Has non compete for 8 zipcodes around me virtually does not want me any where near for 2 yrs.

is this any good or green/d

comments appreciated :luck:
 
Rip off!
35% is a small percentage even for part-time work at an established practice. And the 8 zipcode thing is excessive. I would definitely counter offer with something higher. He's going to low-ball you with first offer. I'd counter with 55-60% and accept no less than 40%, but hopefully you can get him closer to 50%.

BTW, why are you even looking at a part-time pain gig for 2 days a week anyway? Is this your dream location in Manhattan or something? If so you're still his beyatch as you can't otherwise practice pain with 8 zipcodes. There are lots of fulltime pain opportunities out there, this one isn't that good.
 
I have Pain doc who will give me 1 yr contract, 35 % of collections from my 2 days in a week work he initially wants to offer. He wants to build up slowly and wants to take a 65 % from what i make. Has non compete for 8 zipcodes around me virtually does not want me any where near for 2 yrs.

is this any good or green/d

comments appreciated :luck:



walk away and dont look back...i would not even counter....why would you want a long term relationship with someone who would treat you like this...run
 
walk away and dont look back...i would not even counter....why would you want a long term relationship with someone who would treat you like this...run

ditto.

he/she will use you, get you to quit, put another in that spot. rinse and repeat. he makes 65% (minus your overhead) for doing little to nothing...i see it every day.

does this person have a good reputation? how well do you know the practice. there are many details outside dollars and cents that paint the picture.
 
I am planning to join an established solo pain practice of pain anesthesia doc. He has no idea about contracts, his past docs in the past were part time, do you guys know of any good lawyers. How much to pay for the whole process. Review it, correct it and possible change it in future with changing climate.

Couple of basics with contract with a negotiable partner which I could think of.....

1. Non compete- 5, 10 mile
2. Partnership- from get go or fixed salary for a year and % after that
3. Exit strategy- what do we do if things don't work well
4. Collections- what % goes to him and how much do I get from my work
5. Expansion-asc or hospital
6. Insurance malpractice and health
7. Expenses sharing for both of us
8 what is the coverage, locations
9. Please PM me if you have any contracts with your practice just to get a rough draft of the essentials to include in mine. Privacy will be appreciated both way.


Thanks
 
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Rip off!
35% is a small percentage even for part-time work at an established practice. And the 8 zipcode thing is excessive. I would definitely counter offer with something higher. He's going to low-ball you with first offer. I'd counter with 55-60% and accept no less than 40%, but hopefully you can get him closer to 50%.

BTW, why are you even looking at a part-time pain gig for 2 days a week anyway? Is this your dream location in Manhattan or something? If so you're still his beyatch as you can't otherwise practice pain with 8 zipcodes. There are lots of fulltime pain opportunities out there, this one isn't that good.

Are non competes legally enforceable?

Just my idle curiosity at work. 😎

I was lucky enough to be taught by a super nice mentor. He actually came by once to eyeball my premises for me prior to one of my inspections and give me some pointers - cool dude.
 
Are non competes legally enforceable?

Just my idle curiosity at work. 😎

I was lucky enough to be taught by a super nice mentor. He actually came by once to eyeball my premises for me prior to one of my inspections and give me some pointers - cool dude.



In most states noncompetes are legally enforceable if written correctly. Many times they are not written correctly which blows my mind. I just reviewed a contract in my state where the employer had a noncompete that was written incorrectly. In my state noncompetes are enforceable but there must be a buyout clause. I sample might be "cannot practice for 5 miles radius for 2 years...may buy out by paying 200K." Very simple concept. I have read at least two contracts in my state recently that did not have a buyout. I just dont understand it.
 
Are non competes legally enforceable?

Just my idle curiosity at work. 😎

I was lucky enough to be taught by a super nice mentor. He actually came by once to eyeball my premises for me prior to one of my inspections and give me some pointers - cool dude.
Depends on what state ...
 
In most states noncompetes are legally enforceable if written correctly ...
Majority, yes. Most? Not so much.

Details of enforceability is dictated by legislation and precedent. Each state is different.
 
Majority, yes. Most? Not so much.

Details of enforceability is dictated by legislation and precedent. Each state is different.


Majority or most......why are you caught in the semantics? If you have nothing to add to the conversation besides argumentative statements, please exercise your right to remain silence. California, Virginia, Florida, Massachusetts, and Washington are the only states that have had adverse court decisions. Noncompetes are void in California except for very very limited circumstances (yet they still appear in contracts). They are allowed in the other states that I mentioned, however, you have to do a better job in demonstrating that the agreement is reasonable, not harshly oppressive, and not against public policy. In all other states noncompetes have been upheld in court if simple principles are adhered to in drafting. Why do I know this? Because I do extensive contract review. In summary, California is the only state where noncompetes are void. I feel that this constitues the use of the word MOST (ie 49 of 50 states). Remember, ampabhb, you do have the right the remain silent.
 
Majority or most......why are you caught in the semantics? If you have nothing to add to the conversation besides argumentative statements, please exercise your right to remain silence. California, Virginia, Florida, Massachusetts, and Washington are the only states that have had adverse court decisions. Noncompetes are void in California except for very very limited circumstances (yet they still appear in contracts). They are allowed in the other states that I mentioned, however, you have to do a better job in demonstrating that the agreement is reasonable, not harshly oppressive, and not against public policy. In all other states noncompetes have been upheld in court if simple principles are adhered to in drafting. Why do I know this? Because I do extensive contract review. In summary, California is the only state where noncompetes are void. I feel that this constitues the use of the word MOST (ie 49 of 50 states). Remember, ampabhb, you do have the right the remain silent.
Delaware, Massachusetts, Floirda and Colorado have enacted statutes specifically invalidating restrictive covenants in physician employment contracts (Colorado R.S. 8-2-113(3)., Delaware 6 Del Code §2707., Florida §542.18 (2), Massachusetts G.L.c. 112 §12X.). I know that Alabama, California, Montana, and North and South Dakota have near absolute bans (Alabama §8-1-1., California §16602 Bus & Prof., Montana 28-2-703 to 705., North Dakota 9-08-06.), and Tennessee has a Supreme Court opinion banning restrictive covenants in most physician contracts (Murfreesboro Medical Clinic, P.A. v. Udom, 166 S.W.3d 674 (Tenn. 2005)). You have also mentioned Virginia, Florirda, and Washington, although I couldn't find the specific decisions in those localities

Though Florida and Louisiana's antitrust statues do not specifically address physician restrictive covenants, they prohibit the use pf non-compete agreements among professions, including physicians (Paula Berg, Judicial Enforcement of Covenants-not-to-compete Between Physicians: Protecting Doctors' Interests at Patients' Expense, 45 RUTGERS L. REV. 1 (1992).).

Courts in the remaining states use the "rule of reason" to decide whether to uphold post-contractual restrictive covenants. These courts reason that a party to a contract may compromise its legal rights under certain circumstances. These courts balance the public interest against the parties' freedom to contract. Thus, even though a physician signs a contract which includes a restrictive covenant, courts may decide to not enforce the restrictive covenant.

Many states will not enforce physician non-compete agreements where they are viewed as restricting patients' rights to choose their own doctor. Even where the non-compete agreement is otherwise enforceable, in many instances courts will construe the restriction so as not to prohibit patients from independently seeking out treatment by the departing physician. Moreover, states often draw a distinction between restrictions on the right to practice medicine and restrictions on owning or operating a business, which do not raise the same policy concerns about patient care. For example, a non-compete agreement could be drafted explicitly to preserve the physician's right to see patients, but to restrict the physician from owning or operating a practice similar to that of the employer.

In states that use the "rule of reason," courts enforce restrictive covenants if the employer/ contract-holder has legitimate business interests, and the time and territorial restrictions are reasonable, and no greater than required for protection of the employer/contract-holder. How much time is reasonable? A restrictive covenant may apply only long enough to allow the employer a reasonable amount of time to overcome the loss (i.e., to recruit and train another physician).(See, e.g.: Valley Medical Specialists v. Farber, 982 P.2d 1277 (Ariz. 1999)) Therefore, if an employer/contract-holder replaces a physician within two weeks, then the duration of the restrictive covenant cannot reasonably extend beyond that time.

Courts may strike down restrictive covenants for a number of other reasons, including the creation of a monopoly (Statesville Medical Group v. Dickey, 424 S.E.2d 922 (N.C. Ct. App. 1992), Iredell Digestive Disease Clinic v. Petrozza, 373 S.E.2d 449 (N.C. Ct. App. 1988).), illegal restraint of trade (Duneland Emergency Physicians' Medical Group v. Brunk, 723 N.E.2d 963 (Ind. Ct. App. 2000)) and a general violation of the public interest (Murfreesboro Medical Clinic, P.A. v. Udom, 166 S.W.3d 674 (Tenn. 2005)).

Arkansas, Georgia, Nebraska, Wisconsin, follow an "all or none" rule, taking a strict no modification approach. Courts may not re-write overbroad provisions, and are obligated to strike them down in their entirety.

My basic point is that this is a moving target, and any overly broad pronouncement about enforceability is likely inaccurate. You need to check what the CURRENT law is in your state, and what court rulings apply to your particular set of circumstances.
 
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Majority or most......why are you caught in the semantics? If you have nothing to add to the conversation besides argumentative statements, please exercise your right to remain silence. California, Virginia, Florida, Massachusetts, and Washington are the only states that have had adverse court decisions. Noncompetes are void in California except for very very limited circumstances (yet they still appear in contracts). They are allowed in the other states that I mentioned, however, you have to do a better job in demonstrating that the agreement is reasonable, not harshly oppressive, and not against public policy. In all other states noncompetes have been upheld in court if simple principles are adhered to in drafting. Why do I know this? Because I do extensive contract review. In summary, California is the only state where noncompetes are void. I feel that this constitues the use of the word MOST (ie 49 of 50 states). Remember, ampabhb, you do have the right the remain silent.

Mille, you'll lose this argument. He is Ampa MD, JD. He's got you beat no matter how you slice it.
 
Delaware, Massachusetts, Floirda and Colorado have enacted statutes specifically invalidating restrictive covenants in physician employment contracts (Colorado R.S. 8-2-113(3)., Delaware 6 Del Code §2707., Florida §542.18 (2), Massachusetts G.L.c. 112 §12X.). I know that Alabama, California, Montana, and North and South Dakota have near absolute bans (Alabama §8-1-1., California §16602 Bus & Prof., Montana 28-2-703 to 705., North Dakota 9-08-06.), and Tennessee has a Supreme Court opinion banning restrictive covenants in most physician contracts (Murfreesboro Medical Clinic, P.A. v. Udom, 166 S.W.3d 674 (Tenn. 2005)). You have also mentioned Virginia, Florirda, and Washington, although I couldn't find the specific decisions in those localities

Though Florida and Louisiana's antitrust statues do not specifically address physician restrictive covenants, they prohibit the use pf non-compete agreements among professions, including physicians (Paula Berg, Judicial Enforcement of Covenants-not-to-compete Between Physicians: Protecting Doctors' Interests at Patients' Expense, 45 RUTGERS L. REV. 1 (1992).).

Courts in the remaining states use the “rule of reason” to decide whether to uphold post-contractual restrictive covenants. These courts reason that a party to a contract may compromise its legal rights under certain circumstances. These courts balance the public interest against the parties’ freedom to contract. Thus, even though a physician signs a contract which includes a restrictive covenant, courts may decide to not enforce the restrictive covenant.

Many states will not enforce physician non-compete agreements where they are viewed as restricting patients’ rights to choose their own doctor. Even where the non-compete agreement is otherwise enforceable, in many instances courts will construe the restriction so as not to prohibit patients from independently seeking out treatment by the departing physician. Moreover, states often draw a distinction between restrictions on the right to practice medicine and restrictions on owning or operating a business, which do not raise the same policy concerns about patient care. For example, a non-compete agreement could be drafted explicitly to preserve the physician’s right to see patients, but to restrict the physician from owning or operating a practice similar to that of the employer.

In states that use the “rule of reason,” courts enforce restrictive covenants if the employer/ contract-holder has legitimate business interests, and the time and territorial restrictions are reasonable, and no greater than required for protection of the employer/contract-holder. How much time is reasonable? A restrictive covenant may apply only long enough to allow the employer a reasonable amount of time to overcome the loss (i.e., to recruit and train another physician).(See, e.g.: Valley Medical Specialists v. Farber, 982 P.2d 1277 (Ariz. 1999)) Therefore, if an employer/contract-holder replaces a physician within two weeks, then the duration of the restrictive covenant cannot reasonably extend beyond that time.

Courts may strike down restrictive covenants for a number of other reasons, including the creation of a monopoly (Statesville Medical Group v. Dickey, 424 S.E.2d 922 (N.C. Ct. App. 1992), Iredell Digestive Disease Clinic v. Petrozza, 373 S.E.2d 449 (N.C. Ct. App. 1988).), illegal restraint of trade (Duneland Emergency Physicians’ Medical Group v. Brunk, 723 N.E.2d 963 (Ind. Ct. App. 2000)) and a general violation of the public interest (Murfreesboro Medical Clinic, P.A. v. Udom, 166 S.W.3d 674 (Tenn. 2005)).

Arkansas, Georgia, Nebraska, Wisconsin, follow an "all or none" rule, taking a strict no modification approach. Courts may not re-write overbroad provisions, and are obligated to strike them down in their entirety.

My basic point is that this is a moving target, and any overly broad pronouncement about enforceability is likely inaccurate. You need to check what the CURRENT law is in your state, and what court rulings apply to your particular set of circumstances.



It is interesting that you talk about needing to check on current law and yet all of the cases that you quote are from 2005 or earlier. I agree that this is a moving target and there has been a LOT of change that has occurred in many states since 2005. I find particular interest in your Tennessee case because since then there has been a code (63-1-148 if you are interested) that essentially nullified most of the points in the Murfreesboro case that you quoted except for emergency docs. I have issue with a lot of the other cases that you pulled but I have limited time to argue with someone whose mind is made up. California has near absolute restriction (except for intellectual property). I omitted Alabama which is also absolute for docs. In the other states, the doctor should expect that the noncompete is valid or will cost a lot of dollars to prove otherwise. If you follow your own advice and look at recent data in those other states that you listed, you will find that what I am saying is true. If you need the last word take it but I have stated what I needed to say.
 
Then I would like his comment on Tennessee Code 63-1-148 .........
My comment is that my facts were not current, and I was wrong with regard to Tennessee. One of us can admit our imperfections (I have lots).

That being said, there are very specific exceptions within the statute - the 6 year "burn-off" rule, and the geographic limitation not to exceed the county in which the primary practice site is located or a 10 mile radius around such site.

As to your misunderstanding of the concept of precedent, would you really argue that Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954) is no still the law of the land, merely because the ruling came down 47 years ago?
 
My comment is that my facts were not current, and I was wrong with regard to Tennessee. One of us can admit our imperfections (I have lots).

That being said, there are very specific exceptions within the statute - the 6 year "burn-off" rule, and the geographic limitation not to exceed the county in which the primary practice site is located or a 10 mile radius around such site.

As to your misunderstanding of the concept of precedent, would you really argue that Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 347 U.S. 483 (1954) is no still the law of the land, merely because the ruling came down 47 years ago?



I have plenty of imperfections which is why I have a team to help me when dealing with big projects. My team keeps me on track.

We both are kind of saying the same thing (somewhat). Docs should get legal advice when dealing with noncompetes because the information does change rapidly. Docs should also fully expect to be bound by the rules outside of a small handful of states including California and Alabama. Texas used to be on the short list of states where noncompete were not enforceable and now they are quite enforceable in Texas if written correctly.

There is nothing wrong with old data and old case law (ie Brown vs Board). However, we cannot just stop there. We must look at current cases or info that comes available.
 
IDocs should also fully expect to be bound by the rules outside of a small handful of states including California and Alabama.
I don't consider 26% (13 states) "a small handfull"
 
I don't consider 26% (13 states) "a small handfull"

So then you are saying that noncompetes are not enforceable in 13 states. Is that what you are saying? If so please list them for the edification of us all.
 
So then you are saying that noncompetes are not enforceable in 13 states. Is that what you are saying? If so please list them for the edification of us all.
Please refer to my prior post. After your update, I did not count Tennessee
 
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