"Convenience" Euthansia

[equine2be]

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Has anyone had this topic come up during their interview? During my 'do you have any questions for us?' I brought this up, asking the interviewers if they'd had to deal with clients requesting this and how they handled it (just to show I was aware of this issue).

I think that may have tanked my interview, the one interviewer looked kind of disgusted at the whole idea and adamantly said 'no, I would never do it', the other interviewer didn't look much peeved, but said basically the same thing. Up to that point (this was a behavioral based interview), I think it went well.

So now I'm totally second-guessing myself at even mentioning controversial topics, unless the interviewer brings it up.
😱

And duh, just realized I spelled Euthanasia wrong in the topic (yes, I can truly spell!)

 

[StartingoverVet]

Not trying to kick you when you are down, but I don't think it was a good idea (and don't recommend anyone else do it) for a few reasons..

1) It comes across as "fake". I mean really, who would pick that as a question to ask interviewers to learn more about the school. I would interpret this as the person trying to show off.

2) You can be confused with animal rights activists. Again, strange question, is this person going to cause trouble.

3) It seems like you are "testing" them, and that is inappropriate in my mind. Asking a difficult question about the school is one thing i.e how are you going to fill your funding gap, but this gives you no insight into the school at all.

Having said that, many people have had awkward issues in interviews and still gotten in. If that is the only thing wrong with your candidacy, then you will probably be ok.

 

[equine2be]

Not trying to kick you when you are down, but I don't think it was a good idea (and don't recommend anyone else do it) for a few reasons..

1) It comes across as "fake". I mean really, who would pick that as a question to ask interviewers to learn more about the school. I would interpret this as the person trying to show off.

2) You can be confused with animal rights activists. Again, strange question, is this person going to cause trouble.

3) It seems like you are "testing" them, and that is inappropriate in my mind. Asking a difficult question about the school is one thing i.e how are you going to fill your funding gap, but this gives you no insight into the school at all.

Having said that, many people have had awkward issues in interviews and still gotten in. If that is the only thing wrong with your candidacy, then you will probably be ok.

Thank, I do agree with you on those points (I didn't even think about the 'animal rights' aspect of how that might be misinterpreted)...I learned a lot about the school via their presentations, so was kind of drawing a blank. As soon as I said it, I was thinking 'why did I just say that'?! So I appreciate your honesty.

 

[spoondiggity]

I have to agree with SOV on this one... but I mean, if all other aspects of your interview went well then I don't think it would ruin your chances. I know a lot of my friends who have gotten into vet school in previous years are convinced they only got in because they said REALLY stupid things during their interview and stood out among all other candidates, granted those stupid things were outrageously funny...


Edit: I should clarify, they were obviously very competitive candidates, and had very good interviews.. they just blurted out embarrassing/random things during their interview that were funny and seemed to make their interviews memorable

 

[Ben and Me]

Yes, you may have said one questionable thing -- but I'm sure you also said 100 smart, intelligent things. I still (3 years later!) dwell on the dumb stuff I said at each of my interviews and have no recollection of anything else. It's human nature to dwell on our mistakes. I'm sure you did better than you think you did though. 🙂

 

[Bisbee]

I'm sure it's not a deal breaker for your acceptance.

Along these lines I knew a woman who had a perfectly-healthy, older dog (10 years), a pointer. She woke up one morning to the sound of the dog howling and somehow, convinced herself that it was the "death howl" (whatever that is). Although the dog only howled that one time (could have been at some squirrel or raccoon or something), she took the dog to the vet to be "put down" because he obviously wanted to die that day. Her own vet refused, but after trying a few other vets she finally found one who agreed to do it. I don't know his rationalization for humoring this obviously-delusional person. Maybe he thought that the dog would be better off than sending him home with the crazy lady who may do her own version of euthanasia. But there are vets out there who do this.

 

[primatevetjess]

I also agree with SOV's points - it's not really your place to ask them a question about their own ethics and morals. The point of "any more questions?" is to learn more about the school or program that hasn't already been answered.

But I also agree with what everyone else has said. You really never know. I truly felt like I completely bombed my UC Davis interview. When I was done and my husband asked "How'd it go?" I told him that we needed to start preparing to move to Ohio (my second choice and was accepted before my Davis interview). I also started looking at apartments and such in the Columbus area. And yet, here I am! So try to relax and not over think things (I know, that's practically impossible) because your perception is obviously skewed. 🙂

 

[LetItSnow]

Equine2be:

If the interview was a behavioral interview, I would not worry about a bum question at the end 'tanking' the interview. They were probably scoring you on particular characteristics that went with each question (that's normally how behavioral interviews work), and chit-chat at the end is unlikely to have significant impact.

Maybe this will help (or maybe not 🙂): After getting accepted I met with one of my interviewers to ask her feedback on how I interviewed (it had literally been 20 years since I had interviewed for a job in any serious way). Part of her feedback was that the other interviewer felt I had been "arrogant." So in spite of coming off that way to the other interviewer, I still got in. If they can overlook that sort of thing, they can certainly overlook a silly question at the end.

 

[krist]

This is has nothing to do with your actual interview, but the topic of convenience euthanasia itself. I am honestly not sure where most of the veterinary community stands on this issue, and I wouldn't be surprised if it came up during my interview this year. At the clinic I work at (a very high-volume, 15+ dr general/emergency practice in a city) the doctors are required to perform a euthanasia if any client requests it. We are not allowed to ask why and definitely not allowed to refuse clients who want their pets euthanized. There have only been a few exceptions where a client has relinquished their pet to the clinic, and we adopt the animal out (although often to a staff member!), but overall, if a client comes in for a euth, whatever the reason, it gets done, no questions asked.

I think once I become a practicing vet, if I am allowed, I would perform a euthanasia under any circumstances, but if it was a relatively healthy (or one with an easily fixable condition), adoptable animal, I may try to encourage owners to relinquish. However, I know we have had clients who have told me they tried to place their animals in rescue groups unsuccessfully because they are all full. I know anyone can always take a pet to the HS or local pound, but the likelihood of being successfully adopted is questionable?

I think another important aspect of the issue is what people consider "convenience"? A cat that is urinating outside the litterbox with no known medical condition that causes it? An aggressive dog? An animal that comes in obstructed/with a fracture/etc (something fixable) but the owners can't afford it? Are those all considered "convenience" euthanasia? I think this is a very interesting issue and am looking forward to hearing other people's opinions! 👍

 

[nohika]

I think generally what is meant by a convenience euthanasia (or what is most thought of) is when a happy, healthy pet comes in and the owners request it to be put down because they're moving to a new place that doesn't allow pets, or the owner died and they don't want the animal anymore, or things like that. Something that for the owners is inconvenient and they don't want to deal with it and want it resolved the "easy" way (aka, euthanizing the animal).

 

[crazy bout qtrs]

Just to bring up a new way of looking at it, I am a necropsy technician and I see alot of dead animals. I have come to find that if people can't get a veterinarian to put an animal down then they will find a way to do it themselves and they usually take a much less humane route. If an owner wants their animal put down, healthy or not, it is probably more humane to have the veterinarian do it properly than an inexperinced owner do it improperly (ie. shooting an animal). If they want the animal dead they will find a way...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Just to bring up a new way of looking at it, I am a necropsy technician and I see alot of dead animals. I have come to find that if people can't get a veterinarian to put an animal down then they will find a way to do it themselves and they usually take a much less humane route. If an owner wants their animal put down, healthy or not, it is probably more humane to have the veterinarian do it properly than an inexperinced owner do it improperly (ie. shooting an animal). If they want the animal dead they will find a way...

Definitely. Once, a colleague of mine working at a diagnostic lab got a cow trucked in that had been shot in the head by the owner to avoid the euthanasia cost...and the poor thing was still alive. Farmer pulled out a pocketknife and asked if that would be enough to finish her off. Uh, no. Eventually made him, very reluctantly, pay for the euthanasia fee and the cow ended up being necropsied as scheduled.

Now yes, that was more of a cost thing, but you can see what I mean. I've had to necropsy many animals that either didn't have anything appreciably wrong with them, or had problems that were fixable but the owner couldn't pay. Obviously, case two sucks more than one, but case one still happens a lot. If you refuse to do it, they will either do it themselves or find someone who will.

 

[LetItSnow]

I've had to necropsy many animals that either didn't have anything appreciably wrong with them, or had problems that were fixable but the owner couldn't pay.

Hey WTF ... just curious ... why would a healthy, euthanized animal get necropsied? (What I know about your job could fit into the period at the end of this sentence, so I just had to ask.)

 

[fishfinn]

I haven't interviewed yet, but if asked whether I had any questions, I would probably just say that I learned everything I needed to know from presentations and their website. I'm trying to think of thoughtful questions about the school that may impress them though...

I'm personally against convenience euthanasia. I've never heard of practices performing it without question where I'm from. In my opinion, if an animal is healthy or can be cured, it shouldn't be done. Although there is still the issue of the owner euthanizing it themselves. I'm interested to ask the vet I shadow more about this. If someone were to ask you to euthanize a healthy animal, can you have the animal taken away from them if they are likely to kill it themselves? My guess is no, unless they willingly give it up for adoption.

 

[nohika]

In my opinion, if an animal is healthy or can be cured, it shouldn't be done.

Unfortunately, the second reason is probably a large majority of euthanasias done. As a business owner, you cannot afford to subsidize care for all the pets that need it but can't afford it, as much as you'd wish to. Many, many pets are euthanized that are fixable but the owners cannot afford care or simply do not care to.

 

[LetItSnow]

In my opinion, if an animal is healthy or can be cured, it shouldn't be done.

Anything that can be cured? There are a lot of really, really expensive cures out there. Do you really believe that every animal owner is obligated to provide care for anything treatable? What about lifelong chronic issues that may cost a couple hundred dollars in medicine every single month?

I'm certainly not going to fault people for drawing a line in their budget and determining that a particular problem - while treatable - isn't within their ability to afford.

 

[Minnerbelle]

As much as it sucks, anyone who brings an animal into your clinic to request euthanasia (even if totally unwarranted) is behaving a ton more responsibly than the hordes of people who just dump their animals in the streets or worse. I think it's important to acknowledge that and consider their options with them. Even for a completely healthy and sweet adult animal, it can be extremely difficult to rehome them. Add any kind of illness or behavioral quirk to that, and it becomes infinitely more difficult. If you are lucky enough to have a shelter/rescue nearby that can give a reasonably good chance of adoption for that animal, then by all means, try to persuade the owners to relinquish the animal to the shelter. But that's not always going to be the case. There are many shelters out there that I wouldn't want an animal to have to sit in, if I don't have a reasonable expectation that they will come out just fine. Some animals just would not do well in a shelter, and rescues are often full. If the shelter is not a good option, and you are not going to help rehome, AND you refuse to euthanize... it kind of puts the owners in a tight spot. And mind you, this is presumably an owner that is not willing to go above and beyond for the animal. There are much worse things that can happen to an animal than euthanasia IMO. If I can't think of a reasonable alternative for the animal, I think I would be inclined to agree to euthanize. (Anyone who vehemently disagrees can give me their contact info, and I will gladly hand these animals to them to deal with once I'm out in practice)

That being said, I do think it is important to draw an ethical line for yourself. You should never have to do anything that is going to eat away at your soul. So I don't think declining will make you a horrible person or a vet. But at the same time, I think there's a difference between telling an owner who presents for a convenience euthanasia, "no, i won't do it because it is wrong," and "i'm sorry, but i personally do not feel comfortable doing that. please find someone else who is"

 

[StartingoverVet]

I haven't interviewed yet, but if asked whether I had any questions, I would probably just say that I learned everything I needed to know from presentations and their website. I'm trying to think of thoughtful questions about the school that may impress them though...

I'm personally against convenience euthanasia. I've never heard of practices performing it without question where I'm from. In my opinion, if an animal is healthy or can be cured, it shouldn't be done. Although there is still the issue of the owner euthanizing it themselves. I'm interested to ask the vet I shadow more about this. If someone were to ask you to euthanize a healthy animal, can you have the animal taken away from them if they are likely to kill it themselves? My guess is no, unless they willingly give it up for adoption.

If you give this answer in an interview you would demonstrate a really shallow understanding of the issue and the ethical complexities.

So in practice you refuse to euthanize and you can go home with your onscience oh so squeaky clean...

Except......
Either the owner goes somewhere else and that vet has to euthanize it so you just passed your problem on to somewhere else.

or

the owner self-euthanizes it, probably using some horrible method causing additional pain THAT YOU NOW CAUSED!

or
the owner dumps the animal, and it either leads a miserable life as a stray THAT YOU CAUSED, or it adds to the shelter problem and probably gets euthanized anyway (again passing the problem on to the over-burdened shelters).

Pretty much, however you look at it, you have either passed the buck or caused additional pain. But you sleep well at night, and we are all happy for you.

Unless you have the personal resources to save every animal as a personal shelter AND have the resources to treat every animal that comes to you in your career, your perfect little conscience is going to have to learn to deal with this issue in a more sophisticated manner.

I doubt there is a person on this forum who doesn't wish every animal could be treated like royalty and be saved, unfortunately most of us realize that wishing for utopia does nothing to change reality.

[/end rant]

 

[Emiloo4]

Just to bring up a new way of looking at it, I am a necropsy technician and I see alot of dead animals. I have come to find that if people can't get a veterinarian to put an animal down then they will find a way to do it themselves and they usually take a much less humane route. If an owner wants their animal put down, healthy or not, it is probably more humane to have the veterinarian do it properly than an inexperinced owner do it improperly (ie. shooting an animal). If they want the animal dead they will find a way...

I was asked this question in two of my interviews. One was about a 2 year old puppy and the clients moving, and the other was about a cat peeing outside the litter box. They start by asking what you would do, and then pretty much play the client saying, "no, that's not possible so what will you do next" up until you literally have to make a decision about a convenience euthanasia. My answer was based exactly on what you said. That I would rather be the one to make sure their lives end humanely as possible. That if the client was completely set on euthanizing their animal, they are gonna do it one way or another and I would worry about their means of getting it done. So ultimately I would like to be the one to do it so that I know the last hours the animal has on the earth are a good experience. Just my take on it though.

 

[Trematode]

How common are convenience euths at the clinics you work at?
Based on shadowing at 3 different clinics over the past 6 six years, it seems to be very uncommon. So uncommon that the clinics maybe get 1-4 animals per year that are signed over and that the clinic is able to find homes for. The clinic I am currently at now has a cat staying with us that was brought in for a euth because he had a broken leg. Because these circumstances are so uncommon, the vet fixed his leg and they have a list of people who would like to take him home once he is healed. Mind you, I do not know the number of people who bring in animals that the vet decides to euth, but I have yet to see one in my 500 hours of shadowing. I guess it does depend where you live. I should note that all of the clinics I have volunteered at are small (6 doctors of less) and are not corporately owed or chain stores. The vets have more freedom when it comes to making that decision whether to euth or not and do not have that policy hanging over their head.

 

[Emiloo4]

How common are convenience euths at the clinics you work at?
Based on shadowing at 3 different clinics over the past 6 six years, it seems to be very uncommon. So uncommon that the clinics maybe get 1-4 animals per year that are signed over and that the clinic is able to find homes for. The clinic I am currently at now has a cat staying with us that was brought in for a euth because he had a broken leg. Because these circumstances are so uncommon, the vet fixed his leg and they have a list of people who would like to take him home once he is healed. Mind you, I do not know the number of people who bring in animals that the vet decides to euth, but I have yet to see one in my 500 hours of shadowing. I guess it does depend where you live. I should note that all of the clinics I have volunteered at are small (6 doctors of less) and are not corporately owed or chain stores. The vets have more freedom when it comes to making that decision whether to euth or not and do not have that policy hanging over their head.

I've only seen it twice in three years. Two times too many though 🙁

 

[Trematode]

I've only seen it twice in three years. Two times too many though 🙁

I agree with you. It is sad. 🙁.
Unless you do shelter medicine, the number of animals presented to you for convenience euth should be quite low in comparison.
Hypothetically, I would be more comfortable doing a handful of convenience euths (because you never know what the owner may do to their animal if you refuse the euth) than a large number of healthy, happy-for-the-time-being animals down because of money and space. I realize I am comparing apples and oranges here and that I will never ever know what it is like until I am in the situation myself, but if the thought of doing convenience euths is the most heartless thing you can picture yourself doing, take a look at the other side of the field and perhaps it won't seem as bad as it did.

People got us into this mess by being irresponsible. One of the duties of vets is to alleviate this problem by promoting spay/neuter, educating the public, etc. Unfortunately, euthing animals that nobody wants to take care of anymore and that nobody can afford is part of the alleviation process. I cannot see this problem being alleviated in our lifetime.

End ramble.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Hey WTF ... just curious ... why would a healthy, euthanized animal get necropsied? (What I know about your job could fit into the period at the end of this sentence, so I just had to ask.)

At our teaching hospital, clients have the option to have their animal necropsied at any time. If they choose to (ie, donating for scientific purposes) they are not charged for the (small) disposal/incineration fee, only the clinic euth fee. of course, animals to be privatelycremated are still privately cremated and returned individually, we just necropsy them first. If the client requests no necropsy, they have to pay the disposal fee. But you know, even outwardly healthy animals can have very interested/teachable lesions. We had a cat run over by a car that actually also had widespread lymphoma. No one knew until we looked.

 

[LetItSnow]

But you know, even outwardly healthy animals can have very interested/teachable lesions. We had a cat run over by a car that actually also had widespread lymphoma. No one knew until we looked.

Oh, I didn't have any doubt that an outwardly healthy animal could be interesting ... I just couldn't figure out why an owner would want to euthanize that outwardly healthy animal AND have it necropsied. Thanks for the answer!

 

[equine2be]

I was asked this question in two of my interviews. One was about a 2 year old puppy and the clients moving, and the other was about a cat peeing outside the litter box. They start by asking what you would do, and then pretty much play the client saying, "no, that's not possible so what will you do next" up until you literally have to make a decision about a convenience euthanasia. My answer was based exactly on what you said. That I would rather be the one to make sure their lives end humanely as possible. That if the client was completely set on euthanizing their animal, they are gonna do it one way or another and I would worry about their means of getting it done. So ultimately I would like to be the one to do it so that I know the last hours the animal has on the earth are a good experience. Just my take on it though.

So it actually has come up, that's good to know. I did have a conversation (short) in another interview of mine about the horse slaughter ban lift...that other very hot-button issue. I would rather euth a horse than have its owner abandon it to slowly starve to death. I also do shelter volunteer work (no-kill, yet another controversial topic) and see how hard it is to place some animals. The whole Trap-Neuter-Release thing is another one I've been expecting, since shelter work is part of my experience hours.

 

[equine2be]

Thanks everyone for the comments/perspectives thus far...I have two more interviews so can hopefully avoid the 'foot in mouth' syndrome! 🙂

 

[Bearby]

This was a pretty popular questions last year at Florida. Most of the people who are in my class seemed to be asked about convenience euthanasia. There really is no wrong answer, from what I've seen they just want to make sure that you have thought about this and that you aren't wishy-washy with serious ethical issues. There are people in my class who are completely against convenience euthanasia and some people who say that they would do it, no questions asked. Make sure you know why you answer the way you answer and stick to your guns. That's my two cents.