Conversion of all DO degrees to MD, and ending separation of medicine

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Conversion of all DO degrees to MD, and ending separation of medicine

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Typical said:
any news why DOs are unique?
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Please reference the FAQs before you dredge up old threads

As long as there have been DOs, there has been an ongoing MD vs. DO debate. If you are a premed or medical student, you need to know this:
  • As a physician you and your colleagues will be too busy to care about where you went to medical school.
  • Most physicians judge each-other by the quality of their work and physician and patient feedback.
  • Most patients come to you based on patient recommendations and physician referrals.
  • Your residency and fellowship training are more important than where you went to medical school.
  • If you're smart and work hard, you will be a good physician. If you're lazy and don't make an effort, you'll be doing a disservice to your patients. I've seen plenty of MDs and DOs that are excellent docs and plenty who are downright scary.
Whatever you feel about MDs or DOs, bashing each other is not going to solve any issues.

MD vs. DO flame-wars will no longer be tolerated at SDN. It is OK to discuss the differences and benefits of each degree. However, personal attacks and "trolling" are not appropriate.
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Tired said:
What?! Why? This is ridiculous. I don't even know why I bother coming here any more ...
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Because hanging out with DOs makes you feel dirty. You KNOW your mother would dissaprove and thats why you love it.
 
I like MD-O. It projects better the added tool that we have learned in OMM, while still being the physicans that we are.
 
I agree completely that the letter M (representing medical training) needs to be added to the title, but MD,DO is redundant in that there are two D's. Students at osteopathic medical schools are not earning two doctorates, only one. There should only be one D. Additionally, physicians are very busy, and it makes no sense to have a title with so many characters. Besides, it seems to me that all of you in support of the MD,DO are just looking for two degrees for the price of one.
 
Just to clarify my previous post, even though I'm sure most people will understand what I meant- The fact that physicians are very busy necessitates a reasonably short title because they do not have time to be writing MD,DO on everything they sign. Most dont usually have the time to write MD or DO and so it is pre-printed on their prescription slips. Just something to consider if this discussion of a degree title change is legitamate.
 
Commander Riker signing in.

We're killing ourselves with this notion that it's a battle to preserve the D.O. profession. Let me tell you something. The D.O. profession is now virtually like the M.D. one and 99% of D.O.s practice medicine just like M.D.s do. The D.O. title should be M.D. now.
 
I think it would be a wise idea for there to be an official petition that is circulated to all of the osteopathic schools in the country. Those students who believe it is important to have a degree change may sign the sheet. I suspect that a large percentage of students will sign the petition and than this can be presented to the various governing bodies to help start the ball rolling.

Perhaps a large osteopathic school organization like SOMA can be in charge of ensuring that all aspects of this project are carried out properly.

What do you guys think?
 
HolisticMed said:
I think it would be a wise idea for there to be an official petition that is circulated to all of the osteopathic schools in the country. Those students who believe it is important to have a degree change may sign the sheet. I suspect that a large percentage of students will sign the petition and than this can be presented to the various governing bodies to help start the ball rolling.

Perhaps a large osteopathic school organization like SOMA can be in charge of ensuring that all aspects of this project are carried out properly.

What do you guys think?
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👍👍 As Monsieur de Talleyrand told Napoleon, "Let me be the first French citizen to give his vote of approval", allow me to be the first to sign such a petition.
 
HolisticMed said:
I think it would be a wise idea for there to be an official petition that is circulated to all of the osteopathic schools in the country. Those students who believe it is important to have a degree change may sign the sheet. I suspect that a large percentage of students will sign the petition and than this can be presented to the various governing bodies to help start the ball rolling.

Perhaps a large osteopathic school organization like SOMA can be in charge of ensuring that all aspects of this project are carried out properly.

What do you guys think?
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Since students represent a small % of the total DO population I'm not sure how much a student movement would accomplish, beyond perhaps waking the AOA up a bit.

A more important question might be what would practicing DOs think about it?
 
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DragonWell said:
Wouldn't common sense be to go to a school which grants the degree which you seek, rather than attending a school which doesn't and trying to change your degree?
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haha

owned
 
DragonWell said:
Wouldn't common sense be to go to a school which grants the degree which you seek, rather than attending a school which doesn't and trying to change your degree?
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If you can get me into an allopathic school, I'll be happy to take it. About 95% of the people who post in the pre-osteopathic forum will too. 😀 😀
As I mentioned earlier, I tend to speak with candor. Do pardon that, fellow P.C.O.M.ers.
 
CommanderRiker said:
If you can get me into an allopathic school, I'll be happy to take it.
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If you do not want to be a DO, then do not go to an osteopathic school. I fail to see how you can get into OSU and not get into OU considering OSU has had higher acceptance stats for the last several years.
 
Hernandez said:
If you do not want to be a DO, then do not go to an osteopathic school. I fail to see how you can get into OSU and not get into OU considering OSU has had higher acceptance stats for the last several years.
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Good luck getting into an allopathic school if one is from the West Coast. D.O. schools, whether private or public, readily accept applicants from Oregon, California, and Washington. Many of my friends have had similar experiences.
 
CommanderRiker said:
Good luck getting into an allopathic school if one is from the West Coast. D.O. schools, whether private or public, readily accept applicants from Oregon, California, and Washington. Many of my friends have had similar experiences.
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many people have done it before you and many will continue to.....don't make excuses for yourself.....you don't want to be a DO?...thats fine.....then don't....and do a post-bac or whatever else you have to do....
 
Taus said:
many people have done it before you and many will continue to.....don't make excuses for yourself.....you don't want to be a DO?...thats fine.....then don't....and do a post-bac or whatever else you have to do....
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I believe you're in the minority with this view. 😎
 
group_theory said:
For Josh, 3 of his patients will get OMM so he codes 98925 for OMM on 1-2 body regions along with a -25 E/M modifier to his sick visit code. Let's say because of that, he gets an extra $40 (most insurance in Philly area pay more than that but it's a nice round number). So for him, it's 7 x $80 + 3 x $120 = $920
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VERY bad idea to just start sticking modifiers on your billing, especially modifier 25 since the OIG is currently investigating physicians for this.

I've had previous experience working with anti-fraud investigations and billing like this doesn't take long to get noticed. We actually have automated statistics-based data mining algorithms that analyze claims data to identify suspect billing patterns. I've even designed a few of these and I can tell you, they're very effective and very efficient at finding the outliers. While an HMO audit typically just takes back the dollars related to inappropriate billing, a CMS audit can land you in jail if they believe the billing to be willfully fraudulent.
 
Taus said:
many people have done it before you and many will continue to.....don't make excuses for yourself.....you don't want to be a DO?...thats fine.....then don't....and do a post-bac or whatever else you have to do....
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Life is so much better when you have CommanderRiker on your ignored list....My deepest condolences for the PCOM'ers who will have to deal with him though 🙁
 
CommanderRiker said:
If you can get me into an allopathic school, I'll be happy to take it.
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That attitude is just so wrong... It's par for the course, however. If you are for real and not a bonafide troll, like I think you are, then my condolences, because I think you are suffering plenty, and I predict that there will be more to come. I've never put anybody on my ignore list before. Congratulations, you've just become the first. 🙄
 
CommanderRiker said:
Good luck getting into an allopathic school if one is from the West Coast. D.O. schools, whether private or public, readily accept applicants from Oregon, California, and Washington. Many of my friends have had similar experiences.
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Furthermore, if the DO schools actually applied standards that discouraged people who wanted to practice "allopathic" (nobody calls it that anymore, by the way, except OMT activists) medicine from applying, they'd all be out of business in about ten years.

The DO schools have flourished because, frankly, there aren't enough seats in MD schools to meet demand. What do you think is going to happen to DO applicant numbers, MCAT scores, etc if the MD schools decide to add 50-75 seats per college overnight?

If your answer is "nothing", you really are clueless.
 
I chose osteopathic medicine because it offered OMM and allopathic doesn't. (In this context, I can't think of a more appropriate term than allopathic. I'm using it not as a pejorative but neutrally, to differentiate it from osteopathic.) I never applied to any allopathic schools because I'm much more interested in physical medicine than biochemical medicine. I could have gone the chiropractic route, but I respect the holistic context that med school (both allopathic and osteopathic) provide.

In regard to this thread, I believe a) that there should be only one medical degree, b) that it should be MD because it stands for medical doctor in the minds of pretty much everyone. Besides, MDs were here first.

This is one time that I'm going to swallow hard and disagree with JPHazelton: it's not just about the patient's perspective of our titles; it's how all physicians perceive each other and themselves. DOs face prejudice constantly in the overwhelmingly allopathic medical environment. Our jobs are hard enough without that crap. Having a single degree would solve that problem.

But it's not as simple as making osteopathy an allopathic specialty, like dermatology, because OMM has the potential to be a tool as frequently utilized as painkillers. OMM should be incorporated into standard allopathic education. Those who roll their eyes at OMM should have to suffer thru it just as I'll have to suffer thru lots of other modalities that I have no intention of practicing. It's part of a holistic education, and it is in fact beginning to be introduced into reputable allopathic schools.

And once OMM has become part of a standard medical education, then and only then will allopathic have lost its utility as a word, for DO schools will have lost their raison d'etre.
 
Xoynx said:
In regard to this thread, I believe a) that there should be only one medical degree, b) that it should be MD because it stands for medical doctor in the minds of pretty much everyone. Besides, MDs were here first.

This is one time that I'm going to swallow hard and disagree with JPHazelton: it's not just about the patient's perspective of our titles; it's how all physicians perceive each other and themselves. DOs face prejudice constantly in the overwhelmingly allopathic medical environment. Our jobs are hard enough without that crap. Having a single degree would solve that problem.
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I truly mean no offense to you personally, but you are making things up, just pulling ideas out of thin air. DOs DON'T face prejudice "constantly in the overwhelming allopathic medical environment." Time and time again DO physicians---not MS-0's--have commented here on SDN that prejudice is basically non-existent these days. This truth knee-caps your argument for one medical degree, can you think of any other good reasons?

OMM will never be part of the required curriculum at MD programs, and will continue to be the one factor that differentiates us regardless of how often DOs use OMM in practice. Having no inferiority complex nor inclination to conform, and having these extra skills I plan to use, I want my differences to be denoted in my degree. I am a different kind of practitioner and I want the public to know it. The government, hospitals, insurers, other countries, etc. all know we are fully trained physicians and treat us as such, so I see no functional reason to force uniformity on medical degrees at this point.

Osteopathic students need to realize that most of these problems they are griping about are all in their heads. If they can't think for themselves enough to allay their own irrational and unfounded fears....well, they have only themselves to blame. In the meantime, leave my degree alone.
 
bwells46 said:
VERY bad idea to just start sticking modifiers on your billing, especially modifier 25 since the OIG is currently investigating physicians for this.

I've had previous experience working with anti-fraud investigations and billing like this doesn't take long to get noticed. We actually have automated statistics-based data mining algorithms that analyze claims data to identify suspect billing patterns. I've even designed a few of these and I can tell you, they're very effective and very efficient at finding the outliers. While an HMO audit typically just takes back the dollars related to inappropriate billing, a CMS audit can land you in jail if they believe the billing to be willfully fraudulent.
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I guess I need to be investigated then because I mod-25 just about every patient I see. As long as I document properly I have not had a problem getting paid. Bring it on baby! I mean, doing a Mod-25 is cheaper than having the patient come back for a seperate visit.
 
Of course, I never charge for my ultra sweet, therapeutic dance moves that the patients are really there to see....it's all free baby. 😆
 
surrender903 said:
why should you have to seek two seperate treatment modalities (chiro and pt) when it seems that the counter to that argument is that a DO can proverbially kill two birds with one stone.

and about cranial. get over it already. you are in an osteopathic school, its going to be taught, suffer through it and then when you do whatever it is you practice then dont ever touch cranial again.

what is the big f'ing deal?
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PT and chiro methods are distinctly different skill sets with only a small amount of overlap. There is some overlap, but manipulative therapy is a very small part of a PT's practice compared to the chiro. I certainly can't speak for OMT, but I would imagine there is much stronger connection between DC and DO in this case...

In my uninformed opinion, I believe the allopathic profession would benefit from more of the manual assessment skills versus treatment techniques. Many manual diagnostic techniques have strong support in mainstreem, peer-reviewed literature. The same cannot be said of manual treatment techniques, which have limited evidence in less credible journals.

In this respect, it would make sense for a single credential between MD and DO. It might allow for a strong-evidence based approach that happens to incorporate manual assessment and treatment techniques. Although it sounds like a pipe dream (and probably is), this combination would do an even better job of further marginalizing fringe chiropractors and other "healers" who attempt to pass themselves off as "doctors".
 
Hernandez said:
As an Osteopathic physician, I'm going to have to disagree with you and even the results of the poll above disagree with you. He is not in the minority with his opinion.....
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Riker, from Enterprise.

Again, being an osteopathic physician doesn't mean anything in this context. Someone in this thread mentioned that D.O.s are facing constant discrimination in the world. I would agree with this assessment.
 
CommanderRiker said:
Riker, from Enterprise.

Again, being an osteopathic physician doesn't mean anything in this context. Someone in this thread mentioned that D.O.s are facing constant discrimination in the world. I would agree with this assessment.
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wtf are you talking about? have you ever shadowed a DO or volunteered/worked in a hospital w/ MD's and DO's? You know what goes on there?...I'll tell you....they treat patients and they all have the problem of having too many patients who want and need their services....I wasn't aware that discrimation equaled having more patients then you can treat.... Are there the rare snide comments made every once in a long while by some insecure/ignorant douches?...sure...it happens....does it look like it really matters?
 
CommanderRiker said:
Riker, from Enterprise.

Again, being an osteopathic physician doesn't mean anything in this context. Someone in this thread mentioned that D.O.s are facing constant discrimination in the world. I would agree with this assessment.
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So "someone" said it, so it must be true? never mind that this "someone" who is like yourself, a premed starting this fall and has no real life experience to basis this grandiose claim on, when I'm telling you that I am an Osteopathic physician, and I've encountered no discrimination because of my degree.

In epidemiology, you are falling into what is called selection bias. Your results are tainted, and you're a troll.

CommanderRiker said:
Enough said.
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Well then, you might as well give up on going into medicine, because there are lots of people who discriminate and give doctors a hard time due to mis-perceptions about us being rich, uncaring, money-grubbing bastards. I've run into that routinely.
 
Hernandez said:
... there are lots of people who discriminate and give doctors a hard time due to mis-perceptions about us being rich, uncaring, money-grubbing bastards. I've run into that routinely.
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Agree I saw that a lot...
 
Hernandez said:
So "someone" said it, so it must be true? never mind that this "someone" who is like yourself, a premed starting this fall and has no real life experience to basis this grandiose claim on, when I'm telling you that I am an Osteopathic physician, and I've encountered no discrimination because of my degree.
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You know it's going to be a bad day when you find Riker on your side.

Yes, I haven't even started med school yet. But several MDs with whom I've shared news of my career change have asked me why I'd become a DO when I could instead be an MD. I didn't have to do a case study to guess that MDs generally think less of DOs. Just because physicians who work side by side can respect each other as competent physicians, that doesn't mean that MDs don't look down on DOs. I'd speculate that the bigoted MDs (and I'm not even saying they're in the majority; I'm just saying that there appear to be quite a few of them in my part of the country) would say that a competent DO would be talented in spite of the osteopathic education.
 
Xoynx said:
Yes, I haven't even started med school yet. But several MDs with whom I've shared news of my career change have asked me why I'd become a DO when I could instead be an MD.
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YES!!!! I love when pre-meds use my signature line!!😀
 
Xoynx said:
You know it's going to be a bad day when you find Riker on your side.

Yes, I haven't even started med school yet. But several MDs with whom I've shared news of my career change have asked me why I'd become a DO when I could instead be an MD. I didn't have to do a case study to guess that MDs generally think less of DOs. Just because physicians who work side by side can respect each other as competent physicians, that doesn't mean that MDs don't look down on DOs. I'd speculate that the bigoted MDs (and I'm not even saying they're in the majority; I'm just saying that there appear to be quite a few of them in my part of the country) would say that a competent DO would be talented in spite of the osteopathic education.
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Just because they are wondering why not "MD" does not mean they look down on the other profession at all. Allopathic medical education is the huge majority in the US and the World, so it would be easy to understand why they would question your choice of the minority path, and not that it is inferior or lower in anyway. In high school a friend of mine got accepted to both a huge state university and a small private liberal arts school. He choose the small private school and I consistently asked him why over the entire summer, and it wasnt because the small school was going to give him a worse education or make him a worse student but it was because it was not what majority of students would have done, so naturally I was curious. Plus the fact that I was going to the bigger school made me bug him even more!

I would also like to add to the fact that there is a difference of "thinking something is inferior" as opposed to "thinking something is different".
 
Taus said:
and thats discrimation?.....when people make comments to you about star trek that you don't like do you consider that discrimation?
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hey man. don't get worked up over riker. no one should. everyone should just ignore the comments he makes like how most people treated the weird kid on the play ground in elementary school. Eventually the kid would go away and play with him/herself.
 
There was a kid in my 4th grade class who would rub himself up against this one tree every day during recess. He would come inside and the front of his clothes would be covered in dirt, bark and sap. The teacher would warn us that he was only doing it to get attention and that we shouldnt say anything about it or encourage him.

But even a 4th grader knows a tree f%<#er when he sees one.
 
ok maybe we can't switch and become M.D. school but can't we at least have a law that allows D.O.'s to put M.D. after their name, since they are virtually the same thing.

I propose something similar to what foreign grads do. Those from the UK, India, Pakistan, the Middle East, are allowed to put M.D. when in fact some (Middle East) schools are not even in English So how can they be "M.D.". While other schools (like in the UK) give 3 degrees none of which are M.D. and when they come to the US their coat,s and business cards say M.D. (I know that sentence ran on)

I think that patients will not be as confused --- and D.O.'s will not be as frustrated.
Imagine patients having to deal with MD -- DO -- MBBS -- M.B., Ch.B -- (and whatever else there is out there) when they all mean the same thing.
 
bwells46 said:
VERY bad idea to just start sticking modifiers on your billing, especially modifier 25 since the OIG is currently investigating physicians for this.

I've had previous experience working with anti-fraud investigations and billing like this doesn't take long to get noticed. We actually have automated statistics-based data mining algorithms that analyze claims data to identify suspect billing patterns. I've even designed a few of these and I can tell you, they're very effective and very efficient at finding the outliers. While an HMO audit typically just takes back the dollars related to inappropriate billing, a CMS audit can land you in jail if they believe the billing to be willfully fraudulent.
Click to expand...

Modifiers are how we get reimbursed for OMM. It's not fraudulent coding if you are performing an indicated treatment.
 
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