Cornell free tuition for all need-based med students?

[Goro]

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Well of course even carib schools have no trouble getting applicants. I'm referring to the rankings race which like it or not is one of the reasons these schools are emphasizing improving aid

The only people obsessed with rankings are premeds and med school deans

 

[907914]

Those things are not considered to my knowledge. Research funding, not output, is what factors into rankings.

Those things are values for med school but they are not related to the ranking

The move to debt free models is an acknowledgement that education costs have become out of control, competition for top students has increased commensurate with competition for seats at top schools, and med schools in general want to increase the number of students pursuing pc and academic careers.

If there was a reliable way to measure both output AND efficacy of education (levels of improvement of students) then that would be that only ranking that would matter to me.

 

[Kardio]

Those things are not considered to my knowledge. Research funding, not output, is what factors into rankings.

Those things are values for med school but they are not related to the ranking

The move to debt free models is an acknowledgement that education costs have become out of control, competition for top students has increased commensurate with competition for seats at top schools, and med schools in general want to increase the number of students pursuing pc and academic careers.

By US News’s description of their methodology, the fraction of primary care placements is directly related to their primary care ranking.

I also expect, though speculatively, that perceived freedom to pursue academics (no/little debt) would indirectly increase research funding. Maybe I’m off base here.

I don’t think @theKingLT claim that schools are motivated by prestige, and that this decision is tether to prestige, is unreasonable or implausible.

 

[Lucca]

By US News’s description of their methodology, the fraction of primary care placements is directly related to their primary care ranking.

I also expect, though speculatively, that perceived freedom to pursue academics (no/little debt) would indirectly increase research funding. Maybe I’m off base here.

I don’t think @theKingLT claim that schools are motivated by prestige, and that this decision is tether to prestige, is unreasonable or implausible.

If no one other than med school deans and premeds care about ranking then truly no one cares about primary care ranking

I never said schools don’t care about prestige, just that USNWR ranking in particular is not why many schools are trying to move to a debt free model

 

[Kardio]

I never said schools don’t care about prestige, just that USNWR ranking in particular is not why many schools are trying to move to a debt free model

Then we are assessing the relationship between the perception of prestige, and influence of rankings, differently.

 

[theKingLT]

The only people obsessed with rankings are premeds and med school deans

In any of the discussion I have had with faculty, administrators and trustees of various medical schools over the past two years on this topic I have never heard anyone ever care or refer to rankings.

I'm willing to admit I'm biased on the matter as most of my interactions with med school administration (save my school) over the past year have been through the process of interviewing during which they use USNWR rankings and financial aid constantly as recruiting tools. So yes I would agree that pre-meds care and med school deans care, possibly solely because pre-meds care. From the outside it looks like med school deans have a lot of power in what happens at the school (they are the dean after all), so it would make sense that major changes like those of financial aid would be motivated at least to a degree by what the Dean wants, but for all I know the donors hold all the power and they're the ones coming to the schools, throwing their money around and ordering the schools to give it to the students.

I also think I was too limiting by saying rankings race. Some schools (and even their deans) may not care about their USNWR rankings but they all care about recruiting the top students (however they classify "top") and financial aid money is important for that. Schools that are still requiring unit loan amounts will lose the students they want to those with a debt free system or those offering a ridiculous amount of merit scholarships like NYU, Mayo, or Wash U.

I also want to add to anyone confused by the debt-free vs. Free tuition vs merit scholarships, please remember that the idea of debt-free has no standardization and each school can determine what the rules are. You're need can be evaluated 10's of thousands of dollars differently at any given school so anyone fortunate enough to get multiple acceptances should wait until they get financial aid info back before making any decisions, no matter what the school says their policy is.

 

[OrthopedicNeurosurgeon99]

My parents got divorced when I was 5 and I've lived with my mom my whole life and she makes pennies on the dollar. My dad on paper makes a lot of money but he has never given us a dime, he has a new family that he spends it all on. My question is would I qualify, or will the schools look at my Dad's income on paper and automatically disqualify me?

 

[Kardio]

My parents got divorced when I was 5 and I've lived with my mom my whole life and she makes pennies on the dollar. My dad on paper makes a lot of money but he has never given us a dime, he has a new family that he spends it all on. My question is would I qualify, or will the schools look at my Dad's income on paper and automatically disqualify me?

If you are estranged from your father, I would contact the school and advise them when the time comes.

 

[anbuitachi]

I think this would be interesting to follow over the years to see how it REALLY changes # of students going into primary care... i wonder how large the change will actually be.. but it will take years since.. many people who enter primary care go on to do fellowships and specialize..

the other thing is will this be an all or nothing for those who have parents making 6 figs.. even if they dont qualify for FULL tuition coverage.. would they get it mostly covered?

 

[theKingLT]

My parents got divorced when I was 5 and I've lived with my mom my whole life and she makes pennies on the dollar. My dad on paper makes a lot of money but he has never given us a dime, he has a new family that he spends it all on. My question is would I qualify, or will the schools look at my Dad's income on paper and automatically disqualify me?

Every school that I applied for finaid at had an option to explain exterraneous circumstances like yours. What they do with that info is up to the school.

 

[theKingLT]

I think this would be interesting to follow over the years to see how it REALLY changes # of students going into primary care... i wonder how large the change will actually be.. but it will take years since.. many people who enter primary care go on to do fellowships and specialize..

the other thing is will this be an all or nothing for those who have parents making 6 figs.. even if they dont qualify for FULL tuition coverage.. would they get it mostly covered?

Every school has a different policy and my experience is most dont give out their equations for determining aid. Its highly unlikely need based aid would be all or nothing. Normally they take a percentage of your parent and spousal income, a percentage of parent assets, and a percentage of personal assets, and add all that together to come up with an EFC (expected familial contribution) then they add that number to the unit loan amount (in the case of a debt free system this is 0), and subtract the final result from the COA to give you your scholarship amount. I oversimplifed it by removint some modifying factors like siblings in college, type of assets, etc. but you get the idea

 

[KnightDoc]

Well of course even carib schools have no trouble getting applicants. I'm referring to the rankings race which like it or not is one of the reasons these schools are emphasizing improving aid

Actually, I haven't seen anything indicating that rankings have anything to do with the trend towards addressing the astronomical cost of med school. It seemingly has everything to do with the shortage of primary care physicians, and making it possible for people to become primary care physicians if, after all their flowery prose about entering to profession to save the world, they actually are not motivated by money and don't want to be forced into higher paying specialties in order to service crippling school debt.

From speaking with lots of people over the past few years, rankings, to the extent they even matter at all, are way more a function of reputation, resources, research money, faculty, etc., than the stats of entering students, so increasing those by increasing aid will have no expected effect on rankings. It really does appear as though certain top schools are simply using their vast wealth and ability to raise money to address a glaring need in the profession, rather than as a tool to manipulate a ranking system that really doesn't mean a whole lot outside the world of premeds and magazine publishing.

 

[907914]

they actually are not motivated by money and don't want to be forced into higher paying specialties in order to service crippling school debt.

Exactly this. As a premed, I know FM is one of my top choices. As someone looking to have a decent lifestyle out of residency.....FM is not high on my list.

 

[KnightDoc]

Exactly this. As a premed, I know FM is one of my top choices. As someone looking to have a decent lifestyle out of residency.....FM is not high on my list.

FM is *not* high, or is high???

 

[907914]

FM is *not* high, or is high???

Lol Like you were alluding to many students considering specialties, FM is high as a career choice for what I would like to do, FM is not high as a career choice because the potential for loans repayments to take away most of my income will force me to work more and take away the lifestyle benefits of FM.

 

[KnightDoc]

Lol Like you were alluding to many students considering specialties, FM is high as a career choice for what I would like to do, FM is not high as a career choice because the potential for loans repayments to take away most of my income will force me to work more and take away the lifestyle benefits of FM.

Oh, never mind then! I have a feeling, based on your profile, that someone is going to make you a very attractive offer that is not going to involve the level of debt that will preclude you from doing what you want. 🙂

 

[theKingLT]

Lol Like you were alluding to many students considering specialties, FM is high as a career choice for what I would like to do, FM is not high as a career choice because the potential for loans repayments to take away most of my income will force me to work more and take away the lifestyle benefits of FM.

The thing is i'm not convinced reducing education cost will have a very large impact. Most people would say FM already experiences significantly better lifestyle than most of the higher earning specialties (although obviusly this is a subjective measurement). FM docs are not working 100 hours a week bc they have crippling loan payments. The salary is sufficient even for a few hundred thousand dollars of debt, they just cant afford the same yacht and mansion type purchases that ortho can. Reducing debt is great but it wont remove the millions of dollars in income potential you lose by going FM, and I fear that and possibly specialy prestige/FM stigma are larger driving factors for specialty choice. I hope I'm wrong, but as far as i know (feel free to link articles im unaware of) there just isnt evidence right now that lower debt is going fix the FM shortage. I guess we'll see as we get more data in the next 5-10 years, but I have more faith right now in the primary care and rural med specific programs as opposed to just reducing debt in general

 

[907914]

FM stigma

Why is there FM stigma? I understand it is a lot of DOs and FMGs...but shouldn’t that just mean FM accepts a wider net, not that FM is a bad specialty? Same with Oarh and PMR...great lifestyles but stigma...why?

 

[KnightDoc]

The thing is i'm not convinced reducing education cost will have a very large impact. Most people would say FM already experiences significantly better lifestyle than most of the higher earning specialties (although obviusly this is a subjective measurement). FM docs are not working 100 hours a week bc they have crippling loan payments. The salary is sufficient even for a few hundred thousand dollars of debt, they just cant afford the same yacht and mansion type purchases that ortho can. Reducing debt is great but it wont remove the millions of dollars in income potential you lose by going FM, and I fear that and possibly specialy prestige/FM stigma are larger driving factors for specialty choice. I hope I'm wrong, but as far as i know (feel free to link articles im unaware of) there just isnt evidence right now that lower debt is going fix the FM shortage. I guess we'll see as we get more data in the next 5-10 years, but I have more faith right now in the primary care and rural med specific programs as opposed to just reducing debt in general

You might be right -- I have no way to know whether or not it will be effective (hence my reference to the flowery prose in applications 🙂), but, for people who don't aspire to mansions and yachts, the difference between $500,000 in debt and maybe $150,000 in debt might very well be the difference between doing what they want and doing what they feel they have to.

The only point of my post is that the movement toward making med school less expensive is driven by the desire to make a graduating MD's ability to choose a less lucrative path more viable, assuming that's what they want to do, without compelling it, as the specific programs do, and has nothing to do with climbing ranking charts. Time will tell whether it is effective or just a wasteful subsidy to future millionaires.

 

[theKingLT]

You might be right -- I have no way to know whether or not it will be effective (hence my reference to the flowery prose in applications 🙂), but, for people who don't aspire to mansions and yachts, the difference between $500,000 in debt and maybe $150,000 in debt might very well be the difference between doing what they want and doing what they feel they have to.

The only point of my post is that the movement toward making med school less expensive is driven by the desire to make a graduating MD's ability to choose a less lucrative path more viable, assuming that's what they want to do, without compelling it, as the specific programs do, and has nothing to do with climbing ranking charts. Time will tell whether it is effective or just a wasteful subsidy to future millionaires.

I hope I'm wrong lol

 

[theKingLT]

Why is there FM stigma? I understand it is a lot of DOs and FMGs...but shouldn’t that just mean FM accepts a wider net, not that FM is a bad specialty? Same with Oarh and PMR...great lifestyles but stigma...why?

Wish I could explain it logically but I dont get it either lol. I dont think it has as much to do with where the doctors came from (MD vs DO vs FMG) as it is just one of those weird prestige things that academic subspecialties are at the top of the medicine totem pole while community FM is at the bottom. For what its worth I think it's a belief on it's way out the door, especially with all the research nowadays about how primary care and prevention tend to kick butt in terms of cost effectiveness for improved PT outcomes

 

[907914]

about how primary care and prevention tend to kick butt in terms of cost effectiveness for improved PT outcomes

This is my biggest thing with why we should encourage more primary care (like, even moreso than we do now). Healthcare would be a hell of a lot cheaper if patients could actually see a doctor BEFORE they need a specialist.

Also, this may be a pipe dream but being a PCP and academics are not mutually exclusive. One of my interviewers at UChicago was an FM who worked at an under served clinic 25 hours a week and did translational research and teaching at the school 20 hours a week. Like....that would be my ideal career right there.