Cornell vs. Michigan

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somewhere2010

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i figured it was time that i started my own "this vs. that" thread...i've been comparing these two schools in my head quite a bit lately. they're both outstanding schools, but their locations are sooo different, and i really haven't made up my mind about awesome college town vs. ridiculously great city. and although cornell is labelled PBL, i don't think the amount of problem-based business is so extremely different from the amount at michigan...

other thoughts??
 
somewhere2010 said:
i figured it was time that i started my own "this vs. that" thread...i've been comparing these two schools in my head quite a bit lately. they're both outstanding schools, but their locations are sooo different, and i really haven't made up my mind about awesome college town vs. ridiculously great city. and although cornell is labelled PBL, i don't think the amount of problem-based business is so extremely different from the amount at michigan...

other thoughts??

i happened to chance upon your post. I'm actually graduating medical school this year. I would ammend "ridiculously great city" to "ridiculously great city with subsidized housing in the upper east side!" Cornell gets my vote.
 
somewhere2010 said:
and although cornell is labelled PBL, i don't think the amount of problem-based business is so extremely different from the amount at michigan...
There is absolutely no PBL at Michigan. Hence I have no clue what you're talking about. 😕 I actually couldn't imagine two curriculums being more different, now that I think about it. Cornell has journal clubs, a day per week devoted to seeing patients, and half PBL. Michigan is almost exclusively lecture based. The only real similarity is that they both have frequent quizzes/exams to make sure you keep on top of the material.

I also have the prospect of facing this decision, seeing as I've been accepted to Michigan and recently interviewed at Cornell. My initial impression of Cornell was awesome, but then my faculty interviewer was a turd and ruined the entire experience (despite the fact that it was still an OK interview). 👎

Personally, I strongly favor Michigan's curriculum and overall learning environment, but my fiancee is living in NY, so Cornell has the edge when it comes to location. At this point in time, I would probably still choose Michigan over Cornell. It's definitely going to be a tough decision. Good luck!
 
Labslave said:
There is absolutely no PBL at Michigan. Hence I have no clue what you're talking about. 😕 I actually couldn't imagine two curriculums being more different, now that I think about it. Cornell has journal clubs, a day per week devoted to seeing patients, and half PBL. Michigan is almost exclusively lecture based. The only real similarity is that they both have frequent quizzes/exams to make sure you keep on top of the material.

I also have the prospect of facing this decision, seeing as I've been accepted to Michigan and recently interviewed at Cornell. My initial impression of Cornell was awesome, but then my faculty interviewer was a turd and ruined the entire experience (despite the fact that it was still an OK interview). 👎

Personally, I strongly favor Michigan's curriculum and overall learning environment, but my fiancee is living in NY, so Cornell has the edge when it comes to location. At this point in time, I would probably still choose Michigan over Cornell. It's definitely going to be a tough decision. Good luck!

sorry about your interviewer being awful! i had a similar experience with mine at columbia, though the whole day was pretty lame to me!

anyway you're right that michigan has less problem-based stuff, but with their longitudinal cases and small group sessions throughout, i came to think of it as a certain degree of PBL...maybe the degree of this compared to cornell is much different than i've come to think! i'm just not sure how big a factor in my decision that will be though.

good luck with your decision as well...if i had a bf somewhere, i would be way tempted to just go there! then again, i'm super indecisive, so i'm always looking for things to make my decision much easier... 🙄
 
somewhere2010 said:
i'm always looking for things to make my decision much easier... 🙄
Me, too. 😳 I really want to be with my fiancee, but I'm not a big city guy typically. I'm definitely torn right now, but hey, we have a "good" problem, not a bad one. No matter which decision we make, we'll end up in great schools. 😀
 
I didn't apply to UMich, but I'm interested to hear what ppl have to say about Cornell... I interviewed there and didn't exactly love it. I just felt like I didn't click with any of the students and I couldn't really see myself "fitting in" there. Oh well, I guess if I get in I'll see how I feel on second look weekend.
 
bumpity bump bump! so alas, it's down to these two schools *sigh* anyone else in this situation? any fresh ideas or opinions either way?
 
somewhere2010 said:
bumpity bump bump! so alas, it's down to these two schools *sigh* anyone else in this situation? any fresh ideas or opinions either way?
Come to UMich with the rest of us cool kids... 😉

Seriously though, I unfortunately have nothing "fresh" to tell you. I feel like your decision is going to come down to NYC vs. Ann Arbor, since both are great schools and you don't seem to mind the PBL (which I think is the biggest difference between the two schools). Do you envision yourself in NYC for residency? I'm sure your contacts in NYC would be extensive if you attended Cornell.

Then again, going to UMich would certainly still provide you with the tools to get a great residency in NYC anyway...

Good luck!
 
How much is your merit scholarship to UMich? That could change things a bit...
 
Teerawit said:
How much is your merit scholarship to UMich? That could change things a bit...
Yeah seriously. Merit scholarship plus in-state tuition at Mich? that's a no-brainer to me.
 
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i notice you are in at U Chicago as well. tough decisions. good luck whereever you go.
 
My 30gig Vs. 60gig ipod thread was WAY cooler!
 
both schools are excellent choices!

i'm currently 4th year student cornell, and have to say overall, i've enjoyed my time here immensely. before med school i was a teacher in nyc for a few years so i've been interested in issues of education, and cornell does a pretty good job at most things, with the caveat that one has to be really motivated and a self-directed learner, to do well here.
and all in all, reflecting on my time at med school, it's been a pretty humane experience.

though everyone is different, here are some reasons i chose to come to cornell:

1) in terms of clinical settings
The New York Hospital - Top notch. The "New York" in "New York-Presbyterian Hospital." state of the art facilities in most respects (though the ER is constantly overcrowded, and the radiology dept is very slow) 😛

Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center- consistently 1 or 2 in the country
(definitely a highlight spending time here for me)

Hospital for Special Surgery - tops in the country for orthopedics

The Rockefeller University - 20 nobel laureates - pretty good for this "small" institu. also, really beautiful campus/library/dining area, esp. in spring and fall! DNA was discovered here, as was ABO blood types the Rh factors, and the AIDS cocktail (HART) therapy, etc.

all these amazing institutions are literally joined at the hip, being right across the street from each other. one ID badge gets you access to all these places.
an example:

1a) attendings at memorial hold positions in the medical college. so when we were learning about the thorax in 1st year, surgeons from memorial would come to discuss the anatomy and lymphatics of the breast and how the basic science histology/anatomy was essential for understanding cancer development and spread. this type of teaching situation is commonplace (i did my neuro physical exam portion at memorial as well). People do there sub-I's there, nerurology, pain and palliative care, and a whole array of electives (i.e. thoracic oncology, general surgical oncology, etc)

1b) when we went through hand and arm anatomy, guys from Hospital of Special Surgery (HSS) stopped their practices for the 2-3 hours of classtime and came down and taught us in small groups. rheumatology was the same scenariao. during intro anesthesiology, i spent the first morning at HSS in the OR with an attending during a bilateral knee replacement procedure.

1c) all the attending physicians during my time here have been really approachable. interested in bioterrorism, you can develop a project with infectious disease people/public health (as a couple of classmates did)
if you want to see a cardiothoracic operation, just call ahead and they'd be happy to have you. the same went for my experiences in geriatrics (a great, great department with supportive, talented people)

1d) you have the flagship hospitals mentioned above, as well as your core 3rd year rotations at hospitals in the bronx, brookyn, and queens. a very different population throughout these 4 bouroughs. for example. lincoln hospital, located in the south bronx, is the 2nd busiest trauma center in new york city (after King's county hosp.) and if you do surgery there you will see lots of knife/gunshot/car accidents, etc. the point being if you choose, you can do all your rotations at NYH or ALL OF THEM AT AWAY SITES (except for medicine, which is required at NYH).... you can of course, mix and match sites: so for example this year i'm doing peds, ob/gyn, medicine at NYH and lincoln, and surgery in queens, and psych in westchester.

2) this being said, no matter where you go, you have to decide where your quality of life as a med student will fit your lifestyle the best. in my case, a big factor was that during the first two years: almost all days end at 12:30-1:00. that gives you plenty of time to pursue outside activities such as research or hobbies or excercise/sports and still have time to do the necesssary studying. i worked part time one to two nights a week at a cooking school (i like to cook) during anatomy/physiology and still had time to do well.

3) as for where cornell is: the location of cornell is really NICE (both relatively speaking from a geographical standpoint- close to everything - and from a physical standpoint- the upper east side itself- relatively staid, but nice to live in once in your life.)
very close to resplendent central park (a huge plus), some of the finest restuarants in new york, museums galore (met, guggenheim, fick collection, whitney, etc), a quick bus ride across the park to lincoln center (performing arts), imax movie theaters, Fairway market(!) and it's 25 minutes away from chinatown (yum) and the up and coming lower east side, dance clubs, experimental plays, etc. etc.

4) as for my colleagues here. coming off a 4 yr hiatus from academics, i was happily impressed that our class really worked well together, both from returning students, and students coming straight from undergrad. the mantra really is med students have to work together, or med school will be totally crappy. that being said, i truly feel quite comfortable calling my colleagues today, 5 years, 10 yrs, 20 yrs, down the road when i need that cardiology or psych consult. cornell students are generally a varied and likeable, laid back-bunch, in my experience. the years ahead of us also have provided lots of advice and guidance on how to succeed.

5) in terms of curriculum.
it is by no means all PBL (though the admin seems to emphasize this the most). If you look at the actual schedule it is clear that it's about 1/3 PBL 1/3 lecture and 1/3 small group (path lab, anatomy lab, histo small groups,etc)

i felt cornell gave me a good grounding in most aspects of basic science and in the end, most of the board study time was intense, but maneageable. the two major flaws in cornell i would say would be micro and pharm: you really need to spend time on this yourself during your 2nd year to learn this on your own in a clinically/board study relevent way. it is not taught well here the first two years. that being said, 99% of students pass the boards, and match to top programs throughout the country, tho this is more a testament to the overall soundness of students and their superior clinical training in 3rd and 4th years (which factor much more in residency selection)
on the flip side: basic science biggies such as pathology, pathophysiology, anatomy, neuroanatomy and physiology, histo, cardiology, GI, rheum, are taught well here, in my opinion. I've also had very good experiences with PBL throughout my two years.

clinically speaking, the subinternship (required month) in fourth year is very very strong. highly intense but a superior learning experience. I am definitely ready for internship in a month and a half.

6) classrooms: White boards on most every wall in PBL, flat screen 22 inch plasma screens, Mac G5 supercomputers coming this fall. cornell has lots of money.

7) MD-MBA (with cornell in NYC and cornell ithaca), and MD-PhD prgrams with cornell, memorial, or rockefeller (even after being accepted as a med student only).

there are other great plusses here at cornell. if you're interested, i'd be glad to reply to any questions you may have; or direct you to the right person if i don't have the answer.

in the end, no matter where you go, be happy as a med student and that can only contribute to making you a better doctor to your patients and their families.

good luck in your decision.
 
wow cornell M4 guy/girl, thanks sooo much for all that info! i love when people spill their guts 🙂 it's great to get as many student perspectives from each school as possible. the thing i really love about cornell's schedule is that i work better on my own than in lecture all day, so i love that i'd be out so early...on the flip side, i'd HAVE to be at PBL at 8:30am 3 times a week, whereas at michigan, i could just skip lecture and not really have that many obligations. did you feel like the mandatory early AM PBL wore on you after a while?

another PBL question - i've heard from some students that it gets old after a while...did you really find it to be beneficial throughout the 2 years? i know it varies a lot depending on your group, but it sounds like you probably had a good one!

and finally, more of a student life question: how do you eat? do most peple eat out most of the time? is there money for that? if not, how does the communal kitchen work out? can you have microwaves/toaster ovens in the rooms?
 
Somewhere2010, I think you know how I feel. I loved going to Cornell during the revisit weekend, and what I like most were the existing and prospective students. I felt really at home at that school. If the decision were solely up to me, I would go to Cornell because everything (school, living quarters) are within a few blocks of each other, and I feel I would benefit more from a smaller class and the PBL style curriculum.

Michigan is a very good as well, and I would have a hard time turing down Michigan because my family lives really close by and having that kind of help around with our young kiddies means more to my wife and I than just about anything else. But since I don't think you have kids 🙂, that won't enter into your equation.

Money should enter into your equation. If you can save about 10K/year at one school vs. another, I would think that would be the minimum amount that would sway me from one school to another. If it's less then it won't make as much of a difference.

I personally am more of a city guy than a small/mid town guy. Remember too that did go to Michigan for 6 years of my life, and I know that city like the back of my hand. I have absolutely fond memories of Ann Arbor but there are a few minor things that would concern me about Ann Arbor (not about the med school), one is that most of the available housing is pretty decrepit and rundown. All of the properties just west of the med school are falling apart, and there are some nicer ones just north of the school but those two are not all that great. Now, my idea of nice housing is different than most, I am a sucker for nice places and am willing to pay for them.

Anyway, minor stuff. I would go to sleep one night and think to yourself where you would be happier at. I would focus a little bit less on the different aspects of the curriculum (like the triple jump at Cornell, or the free PDA at Michigan) and more in grander terms, like living in Ann Arbor vs. living in NYC, proximity to family, and your gut feeling.

And when you do that, I know you'll make the right decision.
 
PhillyMD2006 said:
Yeah seriously. Merit scholarship plus in-state tuition at Mich? that's a no-brainer to me.

sadly, not in-state tuition! actually a tad cheaper at cornell, though a negligible difference...
 
Cornell for me. Location, smaller class size, and affiliated hospitals.
 
good luck with that decision - being in sort of the same boat as you (sub cornell for stanford), i gotta guess that welcome weekend/scholarship made the decision harder, eh? damn you, UMich!

- guy from welcome weekend
 
Cornell all the way...nothing beats the ivy league!
 
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kupono3 said:
good luck with that decision - being in sort of the same boat as you (sub cornell for stanford), i gotta guess that welcome weekend/scholarship made the decision harder, eh? damn you, UMich!

- guy from welcome weekend
stanford no question.
 
somewhere2010 said:
...The thing i really love about cornell's schedule is that i work better on my own than in lecture all day, so i love that i'd be out so early...on the flip side, i'd HAVE to be at PBL at 8:30am 3 times a week, whereas at michigan, i could just skip lecture and not really have that many obligations. did you feel like the mandatory early AM PBL wore on you after a while?

another PBL question - i've heard from some students that it gets old after a while...did you really find it to be beneficial throughout the 2 years? i know it varies a lot depending on your group, but it sounds like you probably had a good one!

and finally, more of a student life question: how do you eat? do most peple eat out most of the time? is there money for that? if not, how does the communal kitchen work out? can you have microwaves/toaster ovens in the rooms?

In my own experience, I had really great PBLs for 7 of the 8 different PBL groups I had. Really, it's nice to have that small group with a clinician / professor so long as they are experienced. it's a great way to get to know faculty and to get a prespective you won't get from anywhere else really.
the admins tries its best to bring back people who have traditionally gotten good reviews (PBL has been in existence for 8 yrs now). they do bring new people each year, but those tutors who don't mix well are gotten rid of as soon as possible, in my classmates' and my experience.

Aside from waking up at 7:30, walking across the street and being in class for 1.5hrs, I would say it's not bad considering... (shock) I went home afterwards and slept, using the lecture notes (which are given to us), rather than attend lecture. Also the lectures will be taped so you can see them later.

Another aside is 8:00 is not bad considering you have 1) the whole afternoon off practically 4 of 5 days of the week. And 2) compared to your clinical rotations in 3rd and foruth year, 8 o'clock is nothin!! (i think back to 4:00 rounds during Gyn-Onc 🙂 ... now that was painful)

2) PBL is what you make of it. I do think if you do the work, you will learn a lot, it's not the end all to learning by any means, but i found it a nice diversion from learning the dry material without that much clinical correlation in lecture. I also think it helped me get to know my classmates (whom I really think are wonderful people in general), learn how to "talk" in medicalese (which can be tough at first), and learn how to attack a problem from various angles. I had almost always positive PBL experiences as you can see, but it's not for everyone.

However, it's only a part of the whole med school experience so I wouldn't stress out about it. It sure beats lecture! (which you can study the material anyway at home)
*note: I thought the small groups were uniformly well taught too.. something often overlooked.
*general anatomy was awesome (1st yr), as was neuroanatomy (2nd yr).

3) there are plenty of places to eat:
you can by food from the shops closeby ranging from $3.50 for a nice chicken and rice plate, or sushi lunch specials (a real asset is Matsu across from the Ladson apartmetns), or the Jamican truck with jerk chicken / lamb, etc. there are also places in the med school, rockefellar, memorial, HSS, NYPH, etc. People tend to buy groceries and eat at home to save money usually. You can also go food shopping once a week somewhere else where fresh food is good and cheap and bring it back. Or you can use FreshDirect to order local food/groceries online. Olin hall (very cheap rent by NY standards) as you mentioned uses communal kitchens during first year. It's like a co-op in a way, where people can cook together, pitch and clean, decorate, if they so chose. You have your own apartment (a very nice deal too) for the other years.

You can always bring whatever you want in your room, though the housing office will say otherwise. (Just don't burn down the place)

hope this answers in part, some of your questions.

Consider coming to revisit weekend if you can, to get more folks opinions.

Good luck!
 
There's going to be so many this vs. that school threads. I almost wonder if it deserves a subforum sometimes. Honestly I feel like nobody really knows what will work best for them until they are actually in medical school and taking courses.

Don't make your decision based on PBL or whatever. Make up your mind based on location, cost, and anything else that really touches your heart. If you still are having trouble visit both schools but I really don't think anything can compare to actually being in school and even then you don't know how much you would have hated/loved the other school and your decision has already been made at that point anyway. My guess is that deep down your heart wants to be at one school more than the other and I think that's what you should go with.
 
Medikit said:
There's going to be so many this vs. that school threads. I almost wonder if it deserves a subforum sometimes. Honestly I feel like nobody really knows what will work best for them until they are actually in medical school and taking courses.

Don't make your decision based on PBL or whatever. Make up your mind based on location, cost, and anything else that really touches your heart. If you still are having trouble visit both schools but I really don't think anything can compare to actually being in school and even then you don't know how much you would have hated/loved the other school and your decision has already been made at that point anyway. My guess is that deep down your heart wants to be at one school more than the other and I think that's what you should go with.

👍 I agree. Most people know in their gut where they want to go. And I think there are a few candidates who, in their gut, want to go to go school X, even though they got into school Y that is 6 points higher on the list.

At times there are tough decisions to be made, but for the most part comparing small details from one school to another will be a fruitless exercise.
 
very true.

but i think knowing more about the school helps buttress/support the rationalization process!
 
thegenius said:
👍 I agree. Most people know in their gut where they want to go. And I think there are a few candidates who, in their gut, want to go to go school X, even though they got into school Y that is 6 points higher on the list.

At times there are tough decisions to be made, but for the most part comparing small details from one school to another will be a fruitless exercise.

i agree! and i think that nit-picking only helps me realize which place i really want to go to! i think i really want to be at cornell (today at least!) and am trying to rationalize those things that concern me a bit (too much PBL? cost of living? too fast-paced?)...usually i overlook the bad things when it's somewhere i really want to be, but i'll latch on to the bad things when i'm leaning against somewhere. BUT which way it goes depends on the day of the week... 😳
 
somewhere2010 said:
i agree! and i think that nit-picking only helps me realize which place i really want to go to! i think i really want to be at cornell (today at least!) and am trying to rationalize those things that concern me a bit (too much PBL? cost of living? too fast-paced?)...usually i overlook the bad things when it's somewhere i really want to be, but i'll latch on to the bad things when i'm leaning against somewhere. BUT which way it goes depends on the day of the week... 😳

Come to Michigan!
 
you should definitely go to Michigan! or if not Michigan, then U of C.
🙂
 
greets fr. nyc said:
very true.

but i think knowing more about the school helps buttress/support the rationalization process!

Yea, having more information at your disposal will help. I was too harsh with my previous post saying that comparing the minor details will be a fruitless exercise.

That being said - I think us pre-meds don't give our gut feeling the benefit of the doubt. Our initial, un-thought reaction is usually pretty accurate (but not always). My reaction leaving the interview from USC was that I didn't think I would enjoy going to school there, and days after I got accepted there and came down from the adrenalin rush that I got into my first medical school, I was hoping that I would gain acceptance elsewhere.

ANd when I got into Cornell a week or two later, I was simply elated! But about 2-3 weeks after I got in, I started realizing that as much as I liked the school and the curriculum and the location, that it would be just too difficult for my wife and I to raise two kids in the upper east side on school loans.

But I didn't accept what my gut was telling me, so I started trying to convince myself that I should go to Cornell over NU and I was using all of these weird explanations and phony financial aid mathematics to convince myself that I should go there. Tuition at cornell is 7K/year cheaper than NU, it's affiliated with the HSS, and I want to go into Orthopaedics, dorm living can be pretty cheap, I can live elsewhere like Queens or Brooklyn and commute in, things like that. I even said that the class time at Cornell is actually less than NU (which is only true by 3 hours/week!). All along I was ignoring the huge fact that 1/2 of my huge family lives within 4-5 hours of Chicago and we wouldn't have to fly to visit them (and flying with 2 young kids can be a nightmare!)

So I was trying to let my heart confuse and control my gut. I knew soon after I got into Cornell that if I had gotten into NU, Michigan, or UC Irvine, I would probably go to those schools instead of Cornell because of family concerns. And it pains me to say that because if I were single, or married with no kids, both my wife and I would be punching our ticket to NYC right now. I liked it there that much.

I do believe that information will help in your decision, but I also believe that we have a tendency to overweight factors that don't deserve that weighting.
 
banana said:
you should definitely go to Michigan! or if not Michigan, then U of C.
🙂

Umm, will this really work? Sorry this was a test. I wish I could delete this posting.
 
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