Corporate Dentistry? How does it work?

[HotchkissEducator]

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Hi Guys,

I'm new to SDN, about to apply to Dental School, and generally really excited for it. After Graduation, I had a few options for myself. First, it was teaching (which I eventually went with), because I was so in love with it (and still am). Second was a bit off the beaten path for a Science Major. A lot of my friends at the time with good enough GPAs and good undergraduate schools were rushing off to 1-year MSc Master's Programs. And, I found it a bit enticing myself. The thought that I could make 150K after my undergrad was nuts for me. But in the end, I found it to be a self-serving career, and sales is something I absolutely abhor. I hate the thought of being a salesman and stuff something down somebody's throat, so I know that was not a rank I wanted to count myself amongst.

But, I've been hearing mixed reviews of Corporate Dentistry. After Dental School, I wanted to go to work for Neibauer or Aspen, maybe Comfort, just one of those corporate Dentistry gigs so I can get a good senior dentist to learn from. Now working hard (60 hrs/week) is NOT something I would shy away from. But, is it true that you have a quota of patients to bring into the office every month? For me, that sounds like a nightmare.



But I honestly have zero idea what corporate dentistry is about so any insight would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SM555]

Don't work for something that is ruining the future of your profession.

 

[HotchkissEducator]

Don't work for something that is ruining the future of your profession.

So...is there a lot of sales involved?

 

[ICUrunning]

So...is there a lot of sales involved?

Yes. And you also expected to fulfill quotas. You are also supervised, in terms of having someone from the corporation coming into the office and checking your numbers and profits.

 

[HotchkissEducator]

Yes. And you also expected to fulfill quotas. You are also supervised, in terms of having someone from the corporation coming into the office and checking your numbers and profits.

Dang, so how does that work? How are you expected to bring in new clientele? Can't you just practice dentistry?

And more importantly, if I went to work for a Government Health Center, would salary be a LOT lower (lower than 100K)? More/less stressful?

I want to do good, honest work, but sales really stresses me out.

 

[ICUrunning]

Dang, so how does that work? How are you expected to bring in new clientele? Can't you just practice dentistry?

And more importantly, if I went to work for a Government Health Center, would salary be a LOT lower (lower than 100K)? More/less stressful?

I want to do good, honest work, but sales really stresses me out.

Usually, the marketing aspect is handled by the corporation you work for along with billing, so you are really just practicing dentistry. But because you are forced to reach quotas and make your employer money, some patients will receive unneeded procedures. Speak against this, or fail to meet quotas, and see yourself let go. The corporation can find another newly minted dentist with crippling debt to take your place. Perhaps some companies are fairer than others, who knows.

I do not know anything on government owned centers. Someone else can hopefully chime in on that.

 

[squigloo]

-Less stress on quality care and comfort, more on profits/quotas

-Significantly less autonomy compared to owning a practice, and even being an associate

-Lower pay, but the practice is managed for you

-Attracts young graduates (as opposed to older dentists)


Corporate dentistry is kind of like associateship taken to the extreme. Big wigs saw the opportunity to make a profit off of an untapped profession, and with schools like NYU pumping out 300+ graduates every year, many with a debt of $400K, there's a large and replaceable enough supply of dentists willing to work for them. Many dislike corporate dentistry, but how much choice do you have when there are no practices taking on associates, and there's no way for you to take out another 400,000 to buy a practice? Especially when that Aspen Dental down the street is offering a stable salary while also running the business for you.

Butttttt, it's still a terrible thing that's happening to the profession. The last thing I'll want to see in my lifetime is a dental "practice" right next to the eye care center in my local walmart.

 

[Bis-GMA111]

you work in a dentist factory. your production goals and treatment plans are not the result of your hard work, but the result of someone else telling you that you need to do x crowns and x extractions per week.

not worth it at all.

 

[Ferneezy]

how much choice do you have when there are no practices taking on associates, and there's no way for you to take out another 400,000 to buy a practice?

one has plenty of choice once they realize dentistry can be and is practiced in places like alaska and the dakotas (and many other places that aren't major metro areas) for lots and lots of money. if one takes their half million dollar degree and could put up with such places for even two years i imagine they'd be just fine.

that will be just a scant percentage of the 5000 dentists we produce annually.

p.s. the idea of corporate dentistry blows.

 

[squigloo]

one has plenty of choice once they realize dentistry can be and is practiced in places like alaska and the dakotas (and many other places that aren't major metro areas) for lots and lots of money. if one takes their half million dollar degree and could put up with such places for even two years i imagine they'd be just fine.

that will be just a scant percentage of the 5000 dentists we produce annually.

p.s. the idea of corporate dentistry blows.

Sure there will be less saturated areas to avoid this problem, but do you think enough graduates would choose a less ideal location in order to retain all of the perks of traditional dentistry? I'm a bit skeptical, especially after shadowing many urban-centered dentists who chose to sacrifice a greater patient base in order to live where they wanted to. Yeah, sacrificing income isn't as great of a loss as giving up the autonomy/ethics along with it, but will the realization you mentioned be enough to prevent the dental chains from spreading to even more rural areas?

I suppose I'm just paranoid... And yeah, I don't like the idea of it either. I was just trying to explain to OP why people are willing to work for corporations in the first place. Hopefully Montana isn't affected though... Who would want to live in such an ugly state anyways?

 

[Ferneezy]

Sure there will be less saturated areas to avoid this problem, but do you think enough graduates would choose a less ideal location in order to retain all of the perks of traditional dentistry? I'm a bit skeptical, especially after shadowing many urban-centered dentists who chose to sacrifice a greater patient base in order to live where they wanted to. Yeah, sacrificing income isn't as great of a loss as giving up the autonomy/ethics along with it, but will the realization you mentioned be enough to prevent the dental chains from spreading to even more rural areas?

I suppose I'm just paranoid... And yeah, I don't like the idea of it either. I was just trying to explain to OP why people are willing to work for corporations in the first place. Hopefully Montana isn't affected though... Who would want to live in such an ugly state anyways?

of course i don't think enough grads will do the best thing for them. most will see the monthly nut they need to crack and disregard some of the ethical/professional concessions they'll need to make to feed the corporate beast. for some it takes doing some thing to learn that thing is not something they wanted to do in the first place.

from a competition standpoint i'm not very concerned about a corporate shop being anywhere near my location. let them provide "walmart" dentistry to most of the "walmart" patients. that's not the kind of dentistry i intend to practice.

 

[arkenstone]

A surgeon who works in private practice was telling me about a corporate practice in his area. Apparently there was a plastic surgeon at this practice who was placed on a breast augmentation case, but he refused because of a medical condition the patient had--one which made surgery extremely risky, possibly deadly for her.

Long story short, the surgeon and owner ended up in a fist fight on the floor of the office, and the patients had to call the police.

 

[pinkster]

So if corporate dentistry is bad for our profession, what can we do as future professionals (or current) to stop the growth of it?

 

[arkenstone]

So if corporate dentistry is bad for our profession, what can we do as future professionals (or current) to stop the growth of it?

1) having capital to open private practices and 2) coordination among dentists to partner, reduce overhead, and compete with corporate prices

Unfortunately neither come easily to dentists these days. We've got too much debt and a historically tribalistic culture among dentists out in the wild. Everyone wants to have their own solitary practice eventually, and in my opinion that's just not sustainable for the field long term when the corporate places can just keep sucking up the debt-laden graduates into their super-efficient models. That's how I see it, at least.

All things being equal, quality of corporate care is theoretically worse, and that should become evident over time. But in the mean time, corporate care is easier to access, and that seems to be what matters most to many people.

Edit: one should clarify that technically all dentists are "corporate" of course, but what we usually mean by "corporate dentistry" is that the biggest stakeholders are not practitioners and are concerned only with the bottom line. (of course, you can have saintly owners and dentists can be selfish pigs . . . but "corporate dentistry" is set up in such a way that theoretically the quality of care can only degrade over time, regardless of the skill or care of the employed dentists)

 

[cacajuate]

1) having capital to open private practices and 2) coordination among dentists to partner, reduce overhead, and compete with corporate prices

Unfortunately neither come easily to dentists these days. We've got too much debt and a historically tribalistic culture among dentists out in the wild. Everyone wants to have their own solitary practice eventually, and in my opinion that's just not sustainable for the field long term when the corporate places can just keep sucking up the debt-laden graduates into their super-efficient models. That's how I see it, at least.

All things being equal, quality of corporate care is theoretically worse, and that should become evident over time. But in the mean time, corporate care is easier to access, and that seems to be what matters most to many people.

The problem isn't the world after dental school, its the fact that people keep going to schools that charge $400k for their education. We need to stop flocking to these institutions, let their prices fall, and corporate dentistry will descend into obscurity.

 

[Daneosaurus]

The problem isn't the world after dental school, its the fact that people keep going to schools that charge $400k for their education. We need to stop flocking to these institutions, let their prices fall, and corporate dentistry will descend into obscurity.

Hahahaha. How, pray tell, would that work? No one is going to not go to NYU or USC if those are the only schools they get into. I saw that proposed in another thread and it makes no sense. Who would put off dentistry for a year "just because"? Too many people want to be a dentist to not apply to those schools.

 

[arkenstone]

Loan debt contributes to the problem, but I don't think it's the main cause or the main path to a solution.

It's the lack of smart coordination between dentists that opened the door to entrepreneurs with better models and capital to burn. Dentists did a pretty good job of coordinating together against insurance companies (compared to MDs at least), but collectively they cashed in on the future of the industry by not figuring out how to partner better. GP's partnering has benefits for everyone, dentists and patients alike, but sole owner practices can make a tad bit more if everyone's doing it. So that's what dentists did. Problem is that in the big picture it's a big waste of resources, so of course the industry is now being disrupted.

My pie-in-the-sky version of the way things should have turned out -- dentists should have been the ones starting groups and chains more proactively, and then they should have held on to them, bringing on new dentists who eventually grow to own a stake of the business and take over. That way the people looking at the bottom line are also the people who understand care and face patients all day.

 

[cacajuate]

Hahahaha. How, pray tell, would that work? No one is going to not go to NYU or USC if those are the only schools they get into. I saw that proposed in another thread and it makes no sense. Who would put off dentistry for a year "just because"? Too many people want to be a dentist to not apply to those schools.

It's not putting off "just because". Saving $200-250k in debt is a life changer after school. Especially in the case where you have children to feed. 😉


They are only charging that amount because they know there are desperate kids willing to pay those prices. Then realizing they have $5k a month for 10-15 years, corporate dentistry starts to sound real nice with no extra overhead.

 

[b-rad12]

Dang, so how does that work? How are you expected to bring in new clientele? Can't you just practice dentistry?

And more importantly, if I went to work for a Government Health Center, would salary be a LOT lower (lower than 100K)? More/less stressful?

I want to do good, honest work, but sales really stresses me out.

I am not sure about other cities, but In houston you can work for the county with starting pay at 120k it sounds like a pretty good gig. I didn't look into it much because it didn't interest me so I'm not exactly sure how it works.