Corporate ER Mentorship Program vs Rotating Internships

Started by walnutboi
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walnutboi

UMN CVM c/o 2027
2+ Year Member
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Hi everyone!
I wanted to see if I can get folks' opinions on training after graduation! I wanted to do ER full time in the future, though not interested in getting board certified or going into academia. I just wanted to get good experiences and be able to be a fully competent and confident ER vet in the future.

I spoke to a cardiology resident recently and he said to pick rotating internships over a corporate ER mentorship (ie VEG NERD /Blue Pearl EmERge program). He said he was able to learn so much more during the rotating internship and have had friends with terrible experiences with corporate training programs.

I wanted to see what everyone thinks! Should I give corporate ER mentorship training programs a shot, or should I go with rotating internships?

Any insights will be appreciated!!! Thank you in advance! 🙂
 
I feel pretty strongly that people shouldn't do a rotating internship unless they know that they want to specialize. I think you can get a lot more real world experience being an ER doctor - whether that's through something like the EmERge program or just at a practice with good mentorship - outside of the ivory tower of academia, while making better money that allows you to work toward paying your loans off (as opposed to barely keeping your head above water making $35k as an intern). Academic people (residents, professors, etc.) are going to be biased toward saying everyone should do a rotating internship. While I can see the merits of them, having done one myself and learned a lot from it, I don't agree with them.

@Trilt and @battie are some of the best ER doctors I know and neither of them did a formalized mentorship program, as far as I know.
 
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Hi! I am a current 4th year, just a few weeks away from graduating. I also plan on doing ER and decided to pursue a private practice rotating internship (matched into my top choice this cycle woohoo!). I've had a few people ask why I didn't pursue an ER mentorship program if ER is my goal, and it's a totally valid question and debate to have for yourself! I don't necessarily think there is a "wrong" answer either way, but I can explain why I made the decision to pursue internship personally.

I learn far better from clinical cases versus didactic lectures, so clinical year has been a massive step for me & my growth as a (future) doctor. I wanted continued mentorship in this manner, but this time with more opportunity to make clinical decisions. This mentorship can be gotten from an ER program or an internship.

However, I strongly wanted to continue learning from boarded specialists in their fields, so that when I take in a case I can advise owners as to what to expect when I hospitalize / transfer or refer patients to them. The more time I spend with specialists, the more I can absorb from them and the better prepared I can be to triage and treat cases relative to their field. Most rotating internships also have interns spend significant time on emergency anyways, so you are still getting that exposure of working with/learning from emergency cases and clinicians just with the bonus of also getting to spend time rotating through specialty services. As an intern, these specialty rotations also allow you to form connections with boarded specialists that you can call with questions or refer cases to in the future as an ER doc.

Additionally, I have found that while many of the corporations have various ER mentorship programs, the quality of said programs is highly variable. One company in particular is notorious for having new grads mentoring even newer grads within an ER setting, and that was something I generally wanted to avoid. Even more established ER mentorship programs sometimes struggle to maintain mentors for their programs as ER departments often have such a high turnover rate. Some ER programs are also only 6 months of training, and I personally wanted something longer. To me, it felt more stable to pursue a well-established, year long rotating internship where I will be educated by boarded specialists and other clinicians from various departments with many years of experience under their belts.

Like I said, both ER mentorship programs and rotating internships can be incredibly helpful and I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong answer for you. I think that as long as you thoroughly research/investigate a program, you can find one with good teachers and opportunity for you to grow. You won't make as much money in a year long rotating internship versus ER mentorship, but many private practice rotatings are paying 75-80k (I know all VCA and BP internship programs are in this range). I do agree with the above that if your goals are ER, you don't necessarily need to pursue an academic internship (low salary, residents get learning priority before interns, not necessarily always reflective of the caseload and case types you would see in real world ER), but a private practice one could certainly be a great option! I know multiple people who are going into rotating internships or are currently finishing rotating internships with plans to do ER or GP (or don't know yet what they want to do)- it's fairly common!
 
That's actually what I was going to say. When I graduated and the internships were all paying 30-45k... screw that. If you're making 60-80k for an internship year in a GOOD, ESTABLISHED program it'll honestly probably pay itself off in knowledge and competency pretty quickly on ER.

At the end of the day I think there's a lot of ways to be good vets and not every path is gonna work for everyone.
 
So take this with a grain of salt cause I'm very salty with my corporate experience. I found my unicorn job as an ER doctor and put in my resignation on Sunday. Overall corporate doesn't care about you or your staff. /Rant

Now onto corporate mentorship programs: it's all about the hospital you're in. The corporate gives a kind of frame work for the mentees the hospital follows and how worthwhile that is is based on your mentors. My hospitals had really good mentorship and a great program set up. I honestly feel we supported baby doctors really well. That fell to the way side as corporate blew up our culture. But that wasn't a mentorship program issue directly
 
I am a small animal rotating intern at a program that has an ER mentorship program (6 month program). I feel as though the rotating internship program is superior as we do spend more than 60% of our time in the ER, but we also get the advantage of doing weeks with specialists in IM, neuro, cardio, radiology, which really strengthens our ER knowledge. Most of the people in my program are not going on to specialize and are remaining as ER doctors.
 
Disclosure: current private practice ECC resident, did an academic rotating internship.

I almost did not do internship/residency and instead was going to do mentorship at an ER I had worked in previously. I did not have a huge bias coming into the experience.

I personally think if your plans are general practice, an internship is not as necessary. Sure it can help you with approach to more complicated workups/cases, but you are not going to see the bread/butter of what you will be doing in GP. Especially for the income/QoL sacrifice internship requires.

If you are planning to do ER or considering specialty, I think a rotating internship is much more reliable for giving you the experience that you need (there are good/bad facilities for both types of programs but I think the mentorship programs are far more all over the place with quality variability). My hospital actually has both rotating interns and a corporate mentorship program under the same roof (which yes is weird). At my facility the rotating interns 100% have a stronger education by the end of their program than the mentorship program doctors. I am responsible for training both of them along with the boarded specialists. I think there are some mentorships out there (and I would consider ours one of them) that do give appropriate training for the goals, but fundamentally it is different than a rotating internship. And for hospitals that are not already set up for traditional interns with that infrastructure I do worry about the degree of the didactic training. The arguments between ivory tower vs real world are very reasonable, but that is also different than recent evidence-based literature-based practice and being taught what others do because it is what they've always done. I practice in an expensive area and do "cowboy" medicine every single day and have no qualms doing so, but I am thinking through and justifying the "what ifs" from an evidence/research/pathophys based area to make those best guesses. That is very different than when I was trained at an ER before my internship that any vomiting dog with no obstruction on rads gets panto/cerenia/ondansetron/metoclop (when recent literature published shows deleterious effects of using some of these drugs indiscriminately). You can absolutely use evidence-based medicine and keep up to date on literature as a non-specialist or non-internship trained doctor, but I suspect if you took a poll of all of the doctors in North America those in or supervising the formal internship training programs are probably more likely to be doing so.

You can be a great doctor with an internship, you can be a great doctor with a mentorship, you can be a great doctor with neither. But I think when factoring in variability and individual factors, internship is the most consistent way to gain that experience for ER and specialty-type medicine. Especially since nowadays programs pay much better and are becoming somewhat more humane.

Edit: I think my opinion may be slightly different from Shorty since I have worked more in a private practice rotating internship setting despite my personal internship being in academia. I definitely agree that private practice and academic internships are quite different.

Edit 2.0: Just to to be clear, if I came to work and my co-doctor was a non-internship trained doctor I would not think any less of them. As people mentioned above, some of the regular posters here are ER doctors without any formal training programs who are fantastic DVMs I would love to work with.
 
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Thank you all for your advice and insights!!! <3 Grateful for all of you!
I'm now leaning more towards a private practice rotating internship, but I'll see where life takes me!

Best of luck to every one in their vet med career! 🙂