Cost of Medical School and the Average Debt

[Retro.viridae]

While looking at the cost of attendance for most of the schools I've gotten II's and A's from I've noticed that their average student debt is usually around the high $200,000's. I don't understand how this is possible when the cost for one year of medical school, after factoring in cost of living, is about $100,000 for most of these schools. Are most DO students getting scholarships?

For example, I was just looking at TUNCOM's cost of attendance. Their grand total expenses for year one is $92,521. The average debt of their students for 2018 is $298,451. Why isn't the average debt more close to $370,084? Obviously it wouldn't BE $370,084. But I've gotta assume most DO students aren't getting full-ride scholarships and are relying on loans to pay for medical school, aren't they? So the average debt should be very close to the cost of attendance, shouldn't it?

Are people just finding ways to borrow less than the projected amount that will be required for cost-of-living? Or is it scholarships?

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[MedDoc305]

While looking at the cost of attendance for most of the schools I've gotten II's and A's from I've noticed that their average student debt is usually around the high $200,000's. I don't understand how this is possible when the cost for one year of medical school, after factoring in cost of living, is about $100,000 for most of these schools. Are most DO students getting scholarships?

For example, I was just looking at TUNCOM's cost of attendance. Their grand total expenses for year one is $92,521. The average debt of their students for 2018 is $298,451. Why isn't the average debt more close to $370,084? Obviously it wouldn't BE $370,084. But I've gotta assume most DO students aren't getting full-ride scholarships and are relying on loans to pay for medical school, aren't they? So the average debt should be very close to the cost of attendance, shouldn't it?

Are people just finding ways to borrow less than the projected amount that will be required for cost-of-living? Or is it scholarships?

The school is assuming you'll spend $35,000 just in the cost of living for a year. That is an extremely inflated amount of money that I believe most students won't borrow. Between finding cheaper rent, living with roommates, eating ramen etc the cost of living should be much lower, in general. Each cities cost of living is different but I doubt you'd spend 20k a year in rent.

Edit: And yes some students do receive some type of scholarship but like you said its closer to 10-20% of the class depending on the school.

 

[Cornfed101]

Money from parents or other relatives. Remember that this is the average. There are definitely some people that leave med school with $0 debt, and others that leave/will leave with $400k+++ (me).

 

[Retro.viridae]

The school is assuming you'll spend $35,000 just in the cost of living for a year. That is an extremely inflated amount of money that I believe most students won't borrow. Between finding cheaper rent, living with roommates, eating ramen etc the cost of living should be much lower, in general. Each cities cost of living is different but I doubt you'd spend 20k a year in rent.

Edit: And yes some students do receive some type of scholarship but like you said its closer to 10-20% of the class depending on the school.

Ah, thanks. I was wondering if the school over-inflated the cost-of-living. It probably isn't an overstimation in my case because I have a wife and 3 kids haha.

 

[Retro.viridae]

Money from parents or other relatives. Remember that this is the average. There are definitely some people that leave med school with $0 debt, and others that leave/will leave with $400k+++ (me).

Me too, man. Me too. Haha. :*(

 

[HMC_CORPSMAN9000]

How do you accept the reality of leaving MD/DO school with 400k in debt? Like how on Earth do you rationalize this positively? Hmm I guess once I'm an attending I can pay 10k a month, 10*12 = 120, 120*4 = 480k, hmmm should be fine - lmao.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Rich parents and military will make up to 20% of your class debt free.

The majority of your class will have roommates which manage rent costs pretty easy. Some people go home frequently and stock up on food over the weekend.

 

[Cornfed101]

How do you accept the reality of leaving MD/DO school with 400k in debt? Like how on Earth do you rationalize this positively? Hmm I guess once I'm an attending I can pay 10k a month, 10*12 = 120, 120*4 = 480k, hmmm should be fine - lmao.

haha only 10k? I’m planning on doing 15-20k a month. If I can live on 3k now, I can definitely live on 6-7k and feel like a king

 

[tri99]

How do you accept the reality of leaving MD/DO school with 400k in debt? Like how on Earth do you rationalize this positively? Hmm I guess once I'm an attending I can pay 10k a month, 10*12 = 120, 120*4 = 480k, hmmm should be fine - lmao.

The same way a majority of non-professional degree college graduates rationalize 40k worth of debt for a ~40k starting salary. Even assuming a starting attending salary of $200k you could realistically pay off the debt while maintaining a disposable income more than double that of your typical college graduate.

I understand most pre-meds / medical students have never considered a career outside of medicine, but the "financial burden" of becoming a physician isn't so frightening when you compare it to most alternative careers.

 

[NITRAS]

The same way a majority of non-professional degree college graduates rationalize 40k worth of debt for a ~40k starting salary. Even assuming a starting attending salary of $200k you could realistically pay off the debt while maintaining a disposable income more than double that of your typical college graduate.

I understand most pre-meds / medical students have never considered a career outside of medicine, but the "financial burden" of becoming a physician isn't so frightening when you compare it to most alternative careers.

The main problem with the high debt levels is that things don't always go to plan.
-Can't pass your board exams/classes, can't graduate/work as a doctor
-get in trouble with the law/state medical board, can't get a license
-have major family problems and want to stay at home/work less. . . can't
-No one knows what the physician salaries will do in the future. You are looking at 7-10 years (or more) of training). Lots of elections in that period of time.

Student loans are not bankrupt able, and you should plan to pay it in full. Going deep into debt to get a career where your financial stability depends on a government promise is bad planning.

haha only 10k? I’m planning on doing 15-20k a month. If I can live on 3k now, I can definitely live on 6-7k and feel like a king

The vast majority of staff that I know do not follow this plan. Most go on an income based plan and have significant life creep, then realize after a few years they have made no progress. Buying a house, buying a new doctor car, investing in retirement, having kids, ect. are all important goals, that many will do before paying off said loans.

 

[HMC_CORPSMAN9000]

The vast majority of staff that I know do not follow this plan. Most go on an income based plan and have significant life creep, then realize after a few years they have made no progress. Buying a house, buying a new doctor car, investing in retirement, having kids, ect. are all important goals, that many will do before paying off said loans.

Thanks I needed to hear that because if all goes to plan I won't be making the real deal money until I'm 40 and by then I absolutely would want to get a house, car, family stuff, etc.

 

[tri99]

The main problem with the high debt levels is that things don't always go to plan.
-Can't pass your board exams/classes, can't graduate/work as a doctor
-get in trouble with the law/state medical board, can't get a license
-have major family problems and want to stay at home/work less. . . can't
-No one knows what the physician salaries will do in the future. You are looking at 7-10 years (or more) of training). Lots of elections in that period of time.

Student loans are not bankrupt able, and you should plan to pay it in full. Going deep into debt to get a career where your financial stability depends on a government promise is bad planning.



The vast majority of staff that I know do not follow this plan. Most go on an income based plan and have significant life creep, then realize after a few years they have made no progress. Buying a house, buying a new doctor car, investing in retirement, having kids, ect. are all important goals, that many will do before paying off said loans.

I agree rhat

The main problem with the high debt levels is that things don't always go to plan.
-Can't pass your board exams/classes, can't graduate/work as a doctor
-get in trouble with the law/state medical board, can't get a license
-have major family problems and want to stay at home/work less. . . can't
-No one knows what the physician salaries will do in the future. You are looking at 7-10 years (or more) of training). Lots of elections in that period of time.

Student loans are not bankrupt able, and you should plan to pay it in full. Going deep into debt to get a career where your financial stability depends on a government promise is bad planning.



The vast majority of staff that I know do not follow this plan. Most go on an income based plan and have significant life creep, then realize after a few years they have made no progress. Buying a house, buying a new doctor car, investing in retirement, having kids, ect. are all important goals, that many will do before paying off said loans.

Incurring that much debt and not practicing medicine would be a disaster, but the great majority of medical students eventually become practicing physicians.

While I do suspect major policy changes over the next 10-20 years (for better or for worse), I can’t imagine a scenario where 95% of physicians practicing full time aren’t making less than $200,000. Obviously I’m not hoping ortho/derm/ENT salaries are halved over the next decade, but even if they were it wouldn’t be difficult to pay off the loans while maintaining a great quality of life.

Personally I can’t blame those who choose the income based repayment. I hope to have the willpower to repay my loans as quickly as possible but if I have a spouse/kids it’s going to be tough to turn down a family vacation to get ahead of an inevitable bill.

 

[Retro.viridae]

Yeah I have a wife and three kids. I grew up homeless and have never had much. I'm not going to go out and spend every penny, but I don't know if I'm going to have the willpower to continue living like a student with three kids after residency. Hopefully I find it in me to make them big payments.

 

[Giovanotto]

Yeah I have a wife and three kids. I grew up homeless and have never had much. I'm not going to go out and spend every penny, but I don't know if I'm going to have the willpower to continue living like a student with three kids after residency. Hopefully I find it in me to make them big payments.

Surely you're not giving us the full story. You're planning on taking on 400k in student loan debt with a family of three kids? DO school at that. You can't be serious.

 

[Retro.viridae]

Surely you're not giving us the full story. You're planning on taking on 400k in student loan debt with a family of three kids? DO school at that. You can't be serious.

Ummm. Okay. Lol. Not sure why that's unbelievable.

 

[Giovanotto]

Is SDN handing out crazy pills as parts of its subscription model now?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Is SDN handing out crazy pills as parts of its subscription model now?

I also don’t get your point. Lots of people do this.

 

[Retro.viridae]

Is SDN handing out crazy pills as parts of its subscription model now?

No, but apparently 12 year olds are allowed to have accounts.

Edit: Oh wow. It’s ironic that you have a post in 2015 titled “Medical School Debt Concerns” in which you worry about having $330k of debt and no government assistance because you’re foreign. Ironic that you spend your time, 5 years later, providing no helpful insight to M0’s who are also worrying about their debt load and instead berating them. Don’t you have anything better to do by now? That’s kind of sad.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Might have already been said, but I just skipped to commenting. Some take HPSP scholarship, some are veterans with GI Bill or Voc Rehab, some do have scholarships, some have savings/wealthy families, some have other support even if its not paid by family per se but maybe their interest is paid or a portion is able to be covered each year including with spousal support in some cases. Others may go there but are close enough to home that they live for free, others have multiple roommates or families with a 2nd income which lower cost of living significantly.

 

[tri99]

Is SDN handing out crazy pills as parts of its subscription model now?

Just for the sake of simplicity assume $400,000 loans at 7%, $200,000 salary, and the physician is only household source of income (all of which are unlikely).

Loan repayments would be ~ $4,500 monthly and a quick google search automatically generated this monthly budget for an individual with 3 children at a $200,000 salary.

Unless you consider nightly dining, a $750,000 home, $150,000 worth of cars, and your kids crapping in designer diapers necessary expenses, it shouldn’t be difficult to find $4,500 in this budget that could be reallocated towards loan payments.

 

[hallowmann]

haha only 10k? I’m planning on doing 15-20k a month. If I can live on 3k now, I can definitely live on 6-7k and feel like a king

You expecting not to pay taxes or to make half a million a year? I don't disagree that you can easily live well off of $6-$7k/yr, but you won't have $15-$20k left over per month to put towards your debt unless you are making quite a bit more than the average doc. If I were you, I wouldn't expect to put more than $10k-$12k per month towards loans. Don't worry, you can still pay off $400k in 5 yrs on that plan.

The more you make, the less breaks you get, no matter what your debt level is like. Make sure to take that into account.

 

[Cornfed101]

You expecting not to pay taxes or to make half a million a year? I don't disagree that you can easily live well off of $6-$7k/yr, but you won't have $15-$20k left over per month to put towards your debt unless you are making quite a bit more than the average doc. If I were you, I wouldn't expect to put more than $10k-$12k per month towards loans. Don't worry, you can still pay off $400k in 5 yrs on that plan.

The more you make, the less breaks you get, no matter what your debt level is like. Make sure to take that into account.

I’m from Wyoming and plan on moving back to the state or one of the surrounding states. The pay is a little higher there and the taxes are lower. You’re right, I may not make enough to pay that aggressively, but if I specialize in my current interests (ophtho and gas) then it seems doable with the current reimbursement. Of course all of that could change with the next president, but who knows.

Also those figures are for filing jointly with a family. I already have a wife and 2 kids

 

[Giovanotto]

No, but apparently 12 year olds are allowed to have accounts.

Edit: Oh wow. It’s ironic that you have a post in 2015 titled “Medical School Debt Concerns” in which you worry about having $330k of debt and no government assistance because you’re foreign. Ironic that you spend your time, 5 years later, providing no helpful insight to M0’s who are also worrying about their debt load and instead berating them. Don’t you have anything better to do by now? That’s kind of sad.

This was me providing help. Also, I'm not sure if you actually read that entire thread (or if I updated it), but I did not end up taking on a lot of debt, thankfully. I believe what you're doing, assuming there is not more to the story is irresponsible, but you obviously disagree. I wish your family the best of luck.

FWIW, I've received plenty of PMs from other users asking me about medical school debt, and when I have the time, I try to provide them with my experience. I also take it upon myself to warn others about medical school debt, because the reality of the situation is not always understood by M0s. Where's that irony?

 

[Giovanotto]

Just for the sake of simplicity assume $400,000 loans at 7%, $200,000 salary, and the physician is only household source of income (all of which are unlikely).

Loan repayments would be ~ $4,500 monthly and a quick google search automatically generated this monthly budget for an individual with 3 children at a $200,000 salary.

View attachment 295067


Unless you consider nightly dining, a $750,000 home, $150,000 worth of cars, and your kids crapping in designer diapers necessary expenses, it shouldn’t be difficult to find $4,500 in this budget that could be reallocated towards loan payments.

Aside from the fact that this is a simplification of the situation, the discussion should almost never be, can you mathematically pay back the debt. It should be: how long is it going to take you, under what conditions/QOL will you and family live while you're in repayment, how will your sky high debt affect your ability to negotiate a salary with your employer, will you have the option of going into private practice if you dislike inpatient medicine, etc.

These scenarios also don't just affect you as an individual, but everyone else in medicine. I do not want to negotiate my future salary against a sea of people incredibly desperate for a source of income, which unless you're delusional, is you.

 

[tri99]

Aside from the fact that this is a simplification of the situation, the discussion should almost never be, can you mathematically pay back the debt. It should be: how long is it going to take you, under what conditions/QOL will you and family live while you're in repayment, how will your sky high debt affect your ability to negotiate a salary with your employer, will you have the option of going into private practice if you dislike inpatient medicine, etc.

These scenarios also don't just affect you as an individual, but everyone else in medicine. I do not want to negotiate my future salary against a sea of people incredibly desperate for a source of income, which unless you're delusional, is you.

I definitely agree quality of life / financial stability are more important than just having the ability to pay debt off. Although my scenario is an extreme simplification, I still feel it shows the ability to maintain a “quality of life” greater than or equal to the majority of alternative professions.

To someone who has never considered or looked into professions outside of becoming a physician, it may be “crazy” to take on debt that would guarantee 10 years at the “quality of life” outlined above. But In almost any other field you would be crazy not to make that deal.

 

[IntheClouds4ever]

no ones talked about sign-on bonuses, employer student loan repayment, and/or state/federal loan repayment programs. Im going rural FM and generally the contracts have been

~250K base
~20-50K sign on bonus (depending on location)
~20K per year for student loans
~10K-30K for quality metrics

take your base and pay $5K per month (60K/year), your sign on bonus (50K) and then 20K per year from employer loan repayment.. that's 130K repaid within the first year. then add your quality metric bonuses every year to your loans and In 5 years, you'll have paid it all off or be very close while living a very comfortable lifestyle.